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I have a 95 in 303 British and would like to know if it was possible to rebarrel to 444 marlin there is nothing special about it and if it is not practicle will try a 405
 
Posts: 12 | Location: midwest | Registered: 10 June 2020Reply With Quote
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Do the 405; I have converted several 30-40s (and modern 270s, a complete abomination and I destroyed as many as possible) to 405, which is a far more desirable cartridge in a 95. No one wants a 444.
And make sure you make the barrel contour correct for the large caliber round, and that was used on the 30 Govt 06 too. Straight taper; no concave taper like on the 30-40.
You could do a 444 but it would be a waste.
 
Posts: 17102 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Also the 444 rim is .030 smaller than the 303. Which will need the bolt face bushed, extractor might work as is.
But the 405 is the same as the 303.
 
Posts: 17102 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Good advise. go 405.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41833 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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I would leave a vintage 95 Winchester in its original cartridge, and would absolutely not use a cartridge of a higher pressure, or greater bolt thrust. Even at the time, there are warnings about the action strength of 95 Winchesters.

The 95 Winchester and Modern 30-06 Ammunition

American Rifleman, June 1932

quote:
Because I am a bun on guns and ammunition, and velocities and energy, etc, I am writing to know if what I have will be of any interest to you.

I have in my possession an 1895 Winchester bored for the .30-06 Government ammunition. This gun is comparatively new, having had between 300 and 500 rounds shot in it. Last year the owner attempted to shoot a coyote and the gun blew up. The plates by which the frame is bolted to the stock were sheared off clean. The frame was bulged outward. Almost the entire back end of the shell was blown out. Fortunately the bolt did not entirely give way and remained fastened.

The victim was Jno. J. Shults, a California state vermin trapper. His only injury was a powder burn of his left eye. (he shoots left handed) He was 54 years old, and a seasoned trapper.-G.R.F.


quote:
Answer I am not at all surprised at the accident that occurred to Mr. Shults with the .30-06 Winchester Model 95 rifle. It is about what would be expected sooner or later to one using one of these rifles today and not completely understanding its weakness.

The Winchester Model 95 rifle was adopted to use the .30-06 cartridge at a time when the only cartridges of this size on the market were those loaded with 150-grain bullet and giving a muzzle velocity of 2,700 feet per second, and those loaded with a 220-grain bullet and giving m.v. 2,200 fps. These cartridges did not give breech pressures in excess of 46,000 to 48,000 pounds per square inch . A Winchester Model 95 rifle is safe with such cartridges.

Following the World War, all of our cartridge companies placed very much heavier loaded .30-06 cartrides on the market in response to the popular demand, these cartridges being intended only for use in Springfield, Winchester, and Remington bolt-action rifle which have receiver and bolt constructed of properly heat-treated alloy steel, and have two large locking lugs at the head of the bolt. These cartridges have bullets and velocities as follows:

110 grain bullet M.V 3,500 fps
150 grian bullet M.V. 3,000 fps
180 grain bullet M.V. 2,700 fps
220 grain bullet M.V. 2,450 fps.

The breech pressures run from 52,000 to 56,000 pounds at a normal temperature of 70 degrees; but when the cartridge has been exposed for a short time to a temperature of say 100 degrees on a hot summer day, these pressures may rise 10,000 pounds or so. Despite these high pressures, these cartridges are entirely safe in normal Springfield, Winchester, and Remington bolt-action rifles which have been made since the World War. No doubt Mr. Shults used one of these cartridges, for scarcely any of the older ammunition is now seen.

These new heavily loaded cartridges that began to appear on the market from 1920 to 1924 proved too heavy for the Winchester Model 95 rifle. The rifle was dangerous for them. Therefore in 1925, when the Winchester Repeating Arms Company placed on the market their Model 54 bolt-action rifle in .30-06 caliber, which was perfectly safe with these cartridges, they discontinued the manufacture of their Model 95 rifle in .30-06 caliber, and have not made it since.

Those having rifles should now use them only with the .30-06 ammunition made by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company and loaded with 150-grain bullet, M.V.. 2,700 f.s. The pressure of this cartridge is low, and it is safe in Model 95 rifles that are in first-class condition, that have not developed excessive headspace, and that have not had the finger lever catch filed to make them operate easier.
 
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405 pressure is 46K PSI max. I have converted many of them to 405.
 
Posts: 17102 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
405 pressure is 46K PSI max. I have converted many of them to 405.


The Winchester M1895 was designed, and the vast majority of the rifles built, prior to any legal definition of product liability. At the time, in the US, due to the privity doctrine, the seller was responsible, not the manufacturer, for product injuries. https://law.jrank.org/pages/94...cal-Development.html It took a long time for the needle to move to strict liability.

The above American Rifleman article was written in a nebulous period on product liability, and you can see, the author is not assigning blame to the manufacturer. His statement that the early 30-06 cartridges were of lesser pressure is probably true, but only due to what gun powder was used at the cartridge manufacturer. The oldest documents I have seen, the military upper pressure limit on the 30-06 was always 50 K CUP. Winchester should have known this, and if the action was not appropriate for 50 K CUP, or with 30-06 cartridges subjected to the heat of the day, they should not have chambered the rifle for a cartridge of this pressure. This does not fill me with confidence on the strength of period M1895’s, nor of the appropriateness of using 30-06 ammunition in a vintage M1895.

None of us actually know what design pressures the M1895 was designed for, but we do know the first M1895’s were chambered in 30-40, which is today, a 40 K CUP cartridge. I have not found data on the Military specification, but Phillip Sharpe says this of the 30-40 Krag, in his Compete Guide to Handloading, page 371

The pressure limit of this cartridge and rifle is about 40,000 pounds. Winchester also adopted the Winchester Model 1895 for it, and this rifle is till on the market today-an extremely popular big game gun…… The Krag rifle, it must be understood, is in the lever action class so far as maximum pressures are concerned. Do not load this much over a 42,000 pound pressure. Otherwise you are likely to invite disaster. All these rifle were manufactured before the days of heat treating, and all the receivers were case hardened.

I believe the rifle was built for 30-40 pressures, and then, Winchester kept on chambering the rifle for cartridges of higher and higher pressures. Today we call this normalizing. If Winchester chambered the rifle in cartridges that were inappropriate for the action, which would eventually cause the action to fatigue fail, such as happened in the American Rifleman article, they would have had virtually zero liability at the time, and, since I don’t trust a corporation to act responsibly today, I am confident, the Winchester of 1906 was as reckless as any.

If you have chambered a number of these rifles in cartridges of higher pressure than the 30-40 Krag, the liability for this is not on Winchester, it is on you. And even if you rebarreled a vintage M1895 in 30-40 Krag, and it blows up in the face of its owner, the liability is not on Winchester, it is on you.
 
Posts: 1219 | Registered: 10 October 2005Reply With Quote
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I recommend you not shoot any Win 95s in any caliber, just to be safe; your data point of one failure in 1932 should scare everyone to never shoot one. I know I won't shoot any of my collection of vintage Winchesters ever again. I didn't realize that old Winchesters were so weak.
I'll warn all my clients too.
Best to take up knitting.
 
Posts: 17102 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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I have mostly shot the same reloads and factory loads that I shot in my bolt guns, Mausers and mod 70s...I load 180s at 2600 to 2700 fps, and 2800 to 2900 fps with 150s..and never a problem with any of the 9s I've owned..God idea to check the head space and work up your loads like you would with any rifle. and everyone I ever owned shot Rem and Win factory loads/


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41833 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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I would go with the 405 Win because the 405 win has a much higher CDI factor.


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10055 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Cartridge Design Interface? I use that all the time.
 
Posts: 17102 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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No no no, I am sure Cartridge Design Interface must be addressed with the bolt face...

But CDI stands for Chicks Dig It which is the most important rifle design criteria


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10055 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Ah; then the 405 definitely wins that criterion!
 
Posts: 17102 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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thanks dpcd and everyone else for the response as a little background for my inquiry we have been restricted to using shotguns for ever for deer until somewhat recently we now can use rifles with straight walled cartridges after much research I chose the Marlin 1895 in 444 it has put every deer down like a lightning bolt hit light years ahead of any shotgun I used with the Hornady Leverlution ammo I love the picture of the 95 at the top of the page so since I have a 95 and not much use for it as is would love to have one In my trusted choice of caliber looking like the one above and I like using older pre safeties and warnings rifles also am am not worried about collector value
 
Posts: 12 | Location: midwest | Registered: 10 June 2020Reply With Quote
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What is the 303 barrel like?
I have a 30-40 that has a shortened barrel and a good 303 British barrel would be a nice swap.
 
Posts: 3239 | Location: Colorado U.S.A. | Registered: 24 December 2004Reply With Quote
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NRA Life Benefactor Member,
DRSS, DWWC, Whittington
Center,Android Reloading
Ballistics App at
http://www.xplat.net/
 
Posts: 2294 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
I recommend you not shoot any Win 95s in any caliber, just to be safe; your data point of one failure in 1932 should scare everyone to never shoot one. I know I won't shoot any of my collection of vintage Winchesters ever again. I didn't realize that old Winchesters were so weak.
I'll warn all my clients too.
Best to take up knitting.


We all have to make our own decisions about what we feel comfortable shooting, and whether to trust the products of snake oil salesman.

Strict liability means, known or should have known. And that is on you.

I promise you, if/when one of your gushing customers loses an eyesocket, or a hand, with an antique you worked on, that person will have an entirely different opinion about your competency.

You get hit with a lawsuit, you won’t be laughing, and the liability will take the starch out of your attitude.
 
Posts: 1219 | Registered: 10 October 2005Reply With Quote
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Winchester did their own inquiry in the 1920s to many reports of the 1895s with 30-06 ammunition.
In many cases, it was found that owners had either
handloaded cartridges to higher than acceptable velocity/pressure; or-had used similar in appearance
7.9 or 8mm German surplus military ammunition-
wrecking the rifle. This same subject was covered in the American Rifleman decades ago.

I have owned 4 or 5 1895s in .405. Killed my first
bull elk with one in the 1970s. The 405s and 30-40 (30 US) calibers will handle normal pressures in the 45 K range. No 30-03 or 06s with modern ammunition. Foolproof is only a pipedream as
nothing works without common sense-and common sense cannot be purchased at a hardware store.


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