I'm a Bowhunter & occasional Knife hunter. However, I don't get caught up in the "eliteism" that some of my brethern do. I carried a .44 ruger on my African plains game hunt. I also have a FA in .454.

Your advise would be welcome concerning the smartest choice of a lever action to carry. Future Bowhunt plans include Cape Buff in Zim and Alaskian Moose(drop camp).

My idea of reloading is openning another box of ammo.

Well.....depending on what you're backing up, I'd go for a Marlin 1895 .45-70 guide gun with a ghost ring sight setup[XS]. Ammo would be Garrett ammo, with either his 420 gr. or 550 gr. hammerhead hardcast ammo. JMHO.

Mad Dog

Thank you Mr. Dog , or can I call you Mad

I'm talking about backing ME up...

Since I'm also going to travel for these hunts factory ammo available while traveling is also important.

Is it easier to find .450 vs. 45-70 while traveling?...I leave with Garret or Buffalo Bore but, things happen while on the road.

And yes, I like the ghost rings.

Also, straight stock or pistol grip? Reference recoil?...I realize these aren't your momma's rounds to be shooting.

Go here and look at there "Bushwacker":

http://www.wildwestguns.com/

Showwolfe - I like the co-pilot idea. But, at double the price of a stock marlin...I could get 4 more hunting days (day rate anyway) in Africa.

quote:

Is it easier to find .450 vs. 45-70 while traveling?...I leave with Garret or Buffalo Bore but, things happen while on the

Very nice wildebeast, and with a takedown recurve. Impressive!

Mighty Joe - Thank you! That was my 1st African kill and a very memorable evening.

I would recommend a "custom" guide Gun: Weights to reduce recoil, heavy barrel, low power extended eye relief scope (with high rings so you can still use the sights), and for ammo I would use lower-powered FMJ bullets.

Boss, the .45-70 is going to be easier to find than the .45-70. Problem with lever actions, the cartridges for them are not the most common to find on the road, especially in Africa, from what I am told. Also, to be an effective backup gun, you will need the +P fodder, because the factory rounds are pretty enemic in comparison. I like the straight stock of my guide gun, and as far as recoil is concerned, if you can handle the pistols you are shooting, you shouldn't have too much trouble with the .45-70.

Mad Dog

OOPS! I ment to say the .45-70 would be easier to find than the .450

Mad Dog

Bobby - Yes, I'm starting to think that way....http://www.brockmansrifles.com/index.asp

This shop seems to have some nice options.

Mad Dog - I'm getting smarter as I get older in my hunting equipement choices. I'd like to buy this rifle "once" so I'm doing my honework and thanks for the asst. I wish I would have bought my FA 1st

Illinois doesn't offer much for rifle hunting, so my knowledge is sorely lacking.

I don't mind spend a bit more for a better weapon....I don't see myself ever owning a .470 nitro double.....I do plan to be up close & personal with some tough critters in the next few seasons.

Carry a decent hand gun (say a 329 .44) and your bow- you can bring a handgun into zim no problem these days, and leave the "digging you out the poo" to your PH. At present no Factory lever gun with factory ammo is suitable for buff, let alone ele (with always seen to occur in the same area.) At close range a .44 with top loads will settle a buff.

You cannot but factory .45- 70 let alone .450 Marlin ammo in Zim. There are quite a few .45-70's arround but owners all handload or have a freind who does.

Ganyana - Thanks again, I plan on carring my Freedom Arms .454

I normally shot 45LC P+ ammo. I think I load the the casull rounds for that hunt.

I would have a 50-110 built on a modern 1886 reproduction rifle, it will shoot a 525 gr .510" bullet at 2200 fps..............that will down a buff I am sure.

The .454 was designed to replicate .45-70 performance in a handgun...your question has me scratching my noggin. Perhaps Garrett offers some good loads for it with hardcast lead? If not, well you can afford to do a little reloading, it's not that difficult.

The cartridge has killed everything there is to kill in Africa.

quote:

...your question has me scratching my noggin.

I don't know why it would? This is a lever action forum, you are lever action guys, it's logical to ask here.

The Bushwacker I posted earlier is the smallest you can find. Perhaps you can quote a dollar value of what you wish to spend before others can offer you advice?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
The Bushwacker I posted earlier is the smallest you can find. Perhaps you can quote a dollar value of what you wish to spend before others can offer you advice?

I'd have to think for an in-experinced rifle shooter the bushwacker might not be a wise choice. I felt the co-pilot was a great idea for traveling hunter. I further see the merit of having an experienced gunsmith involved too.

I'd like to keep the budget under $1500 if possible.

Is that your company?

Boss, how about a 458 Win mag... it should be easy to find ammo in africa. The rifle would be the Browning BLR long mag action (7 mag or 300 win) rebarreled and chambered for the 458. Check with the guys at z-hat.com. They do this conversion on the BLR. I just bought one in a 7 mag, NIB for $600. It is soon going in to become a 416 Taylor for use in AK.

For less than $1500 if it were me I would buy a Marlin 45-70 and have the barrel shortened to 16 inches and then cut off the stock to make it like a pistol grip. If you cant handle the recoil (which I am sure would be impressive) you could always add back a new stock. Another choice would be to purchase a 4in S&W 500. I love mine and carry it often for backup against big critters.

quote:

don't know why it would? This is a lever action forum, you are lever action guys, it's logical to ask he

No, it's not a logical question in the first place. You already have something that is equivalent and a lot easier to carry as a backup while you bow hunt. All you get with that capability in a rifle size platform is cumbersome without adding any benefit. Find or build proper loads for the .454 and be done with it.

Dan - Sometime the obvious is over looked.

My Freedom Arms is a SA, 4 3/4 barrel(which I did not mention) IMHO it is a outstanding belly gun. With P+45LC rounds I can get a 2nd shot off fairly quickly with decent accuratcy and I can shot it one handed if needed. Something that eludes me with a casull round.

As to the lever gun - 1st & for most I'm NOT an experience rifle shooter. I will put in the range time prior to a hunt but, I can't make up for years lost.

I'm not given to panic, (9 boar kills 6 bow,3 with a knife) & walking around at 4 am with black bears at 10k. So unless it gets dangerously close, I wouldn't even shoulder the rifle.

Valid points given about carring it. I've done a few bivy elk hunts at 9-11K with 90 packs, As far as cumbersome... I'm slipping through the wood with a 62" recuve & 30" arrows...How much more trouble would a lever gun really be? Also, my bow weights in at 3#.

My thoughs on including a leveraction include rapid follow-up shots(rather important issue with saving one's skin) quick target acqusition, accuratcy & stopping power or with a buff or brownie, at least slow his butt down.

Maybe I should have offered more info in my 1st post...I don't like to sway the answers too much.

Constuctive advise is always welcome.

Cobrad - Interesting idea. How practical would that round be vs. the 45-70 in other hunt situtations? If down the road I should want to rilfe hunt?

Showwolfe - Yes, a marlin is mostly likely the route I'l take with some gunsmith attention. For my experience level I think a full stock is the proper way to go.

quote:

The .454 was designed to replicate .45-70 performance in a handgun...your question has me scratching my noggin. Perhaps Garrett offers some good loads for it with hardcast lead? If not, well you can afford to do a little reloading, it's not that difficult.

Unfortuantely the .454 Casull does not even come close to the modern 45-70.I have both and the 45-70 can throw out 300 grain Noslers at over 2500 fps in a 26 inch 1895 Cowboy and 2330 fps out of the Guide Gun.

But like you said-The .454 has killed them all.I like both.

Jayco

I would avoid the 454. In a handgun it kicks more than my 4in 500 Smith. Stay with the 45-70 rifle idea. It is also the cheapest route to follow

Another option you might look into would be a short barreled pump shotgun with fully rifled barrel shooting the dixie terminator hard cast slugs. At 25 yards and closer a .729 740gr slug at 1200+fps would be a very deadly close range weapon. I love my guide gun but think this would be a cheaper option for you.
Dixie slug

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I would avoid the 454. In a handgun it kicks more than my 4in 500 Smith. Stay with the 45-70 rifle idea. It is also the cheapest route to follow

I've owned my FA for 2 years now.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog: I'd go for a Marlin 1895 .45-70 guide gun with a ghost ring sight setup[XS]. Ammo would be Garrett ammo, with either his 420 gr. or 550 gr. hammerhead hardcast ammo.

I haven't been there, and likely won't. But Marlin's 45-70 certainly has an established reputation as a hard hitting backup for Africa. Garrett's ammo seems to mentioned pretty often, by happy customers....

Here is one article on that: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/lupo/lupo.htm

Here is another one: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/marlin_4570.htm

There are other's.

Cobrad's post makes the most sence if you want a lever gun out here. I love my leaver actioned rifles and keep toying with the idea of re-chambering my Winchester M71 to deal with dangerous game.

Stay well away from the .45-70 in Africa (see topic on Leaver actions in Africa), especially as a back up. If you are an enthusiast hunting with it and backed by a PH- fine, happy days. As you are a bow hunter, the beatie will aready be inside the danger range when you let an arrow go. To drop your bow, and switch to a rifle- too slow. 20 yards to ontop of you will be under 2 seconds if your arrow goes wrong. Trie getting a rifle into play in that time, starting from arrows arrival on target.

I am a small bore?accuracy fan myself, but want at least my .404 in my hands werre I going to be the one backing you. I think most PH's would choose something alot bigger. A 22" barreled .458 win has the necessary penetration for ele or buff.

Put speciality ammo into your .45-70 and yes it will do the same. But - we are talking tungsten cores or sabot rounds. The only live bears I have ever had anything to do with were Polar and they sure as heck impressed me not to play with minimum power factor rounds arround them either.

quote:

I am a small bore?accuracy fan myself, but want at least my .404 in my hands werre I going to be the one backing you. I think most PH's would choose something alot bigger. A 22" barreled .458 win has the necessary penetration for ele or buff.

I truely respect the danger potental I will be exposed to when I presue this hunting dream of killing a Cape Buff with my bow. I do not take the risk lightly. That risk is compounded by the hunting distence at under 20 meter/yrds.

I don't know if I'd be comfortable with my PH carring anything less than a .458Lott In my situtation it would be unthinkable to go into the field without total trust in my PH. I'lll have my hands full in dealing with shot placement.

I do feel that any bowhunter facing DG without a personal back-up weapon is only fooling himself.

Jaycocreek, with all respect due a bullet that works fine on bambi, 300 gr in a 45-70 is a joke regarding applications in DG backup. It ain't no buff load for a fact. JMO but the .45-70 doesn't start to sing until you're well over 400 grains, and 500 is about right. It's all about penetration...

Boss, the comment made earlier regarding putting a rifle into play covers it for me. If you're pondering that action while addressing a target for your bow I'd say you're not really focused on task "A". In Africa you probably need to keep your pistol on your hip if it makes you feel more secure, and have faith in your PH.

Your 4.something inch barrel is no handicap on the FA, but your .45LC loads are silly. If you're not willing or able to master the gun with loads it was intended for, get rid of it and carry a sidearm you are proficient with. If you want to continue carrying your .44, use some 275-300 gr hard cast loads, ones with a big meplat. Another comment made regarding a cut down shotgun made more sense to me than the rifle idea BTW, but I'm thinking SxS at minimum legal dimensions. Perhaps in a Ching Sling? Idle speculation on that. In a backup mode I'm not seeing much utility in a gun that's good for 100 yard shots in any case. The shotgun would be lighter, and perhaps more effective if your nerves are steely. Slugs or buckshot make no difference on a bear when you can smell 'em. Mebbe you still need to keep the faith with the PH regarding buff.

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:
Jaycocreek, with all respect due a bullet that works fine on bambi, 300 gr in a 45-70 is a joke regarding applications in DG backup. It ain't no buff load for a fact. JMO but the .45-70 doesn't start to sing until you're well over 400 grains, and 500 is about right. It's all about penetration...

Dan-If you go back and read my post,I was only replying to
The .454 was designed to duplicate the 45-70".I did not and have never said the 45-70 is for Dangerous Game in Africa.

Dan-If you go back and read my post,I was only replying to "The .454 was designed to duplicate the 45-70".I did not and have never said the 45-70 is for Dangerous Game in Africa.

Jayco

Jayco, dangerous game is where you find it, the choice of bears or buff makes for a fine distinction when they are full of piss and vinegar. The availabe time to react when each serves notice is brief I'd imagine. No slam intended personally, it's just that the 300 gr. load in the 45-70 is silly for the application IMO, the comparison of velocity without merit.

I would not hunt DG with a .454 either as I really don't care that much for handguns at this point in life. When you load the heavy bullets of suitable design and alloy in either, there is not a meaningful difference in terminal performance, both will provide substantial penetration, as demonstrated on both sides of the meridian. Whether of not one has the cool to put where it belongs is another story that does not reflect on the physics at hand. You may check in with Freedom Arms in regards to the history of the .454 and design goals, I think they'll verify my contention BTW. Of course I might be wrong, but I doubt it. Betcha a beer....

The question posed by Boss is in regards to backup though, and the thought of carrying a long gun for backup whilst bow hunting stikes my mind as comparable to wearing a saffron tutu at a state funeral.

D Dan -

- Boss, the comment made earlier regarding putting a rifle into play covers it for me. If you're pondering that action while addressing a target for your bow I'd say you're not really focused on task "A".

I do appreciate imput from those with more experience with lever action rifles. However, as we have never hunted together, your speculations on my "focus" are unqualified.

- In Africa you probably need to keep your pistol on your hip if it makes you feel more secure, and have faith in your PH.

Faith in a PH or Guide is indeed important to the success of any hunt. Ultimately, evey man remains responsible for his own saftey. To go to the field unprepared is the action of a fool.

- Your 4.something inch barrel is no handicap on the FA, but your .45LC loads are silly. If you're not willing or able to master the gun with loads it was intended for, get rid of it and carry a sidearm you are proficient with.

I've carried .FA with Corbon hardcast on my last boar hunt. which I do feel is an appropreate round for 120-150# size ferral hogs.

As I posted previously, I would carry with the casull rounds. I'm at a loss as your speculation that I might be not be willing to master those loads.

Being rather ne on this site, I don't understand the reason for your condesending attitude....Is your "shtick" here?

Dan-I was comparing the 300 grain as on Freedom Arms sight that is all they refer to or there largest one for reloading purposes.I also shoot Cor-Bon Cast loads through my .454 and it still does not even come close to my 550 grain Cast handload.The 550 Cast in a 45-70 is less than 100 fps slower than Freedom Arms 300 grain SP's top load on the reloading section of Freedom Arms and in penetration there is no comparison.

I personally use a 405 grain Kodiak bullet for my defense against the Idaho Bears or anything else that bites back and has claws.My neighbor was attacked last year by a Black Bear over an Elk Kill with his back turned and the Grizzlies are increasing in numbers to fast for me and they do get the ol' heart a pumpin and if I had a choice up close and personal I would pick my Guide Gun over my .300 Win Mag to stop one,but you never have that choice it seems,just whatevers at hand.

Take care.....Jayco

Boss:
If you want a lever for a backup, get a Browning Model 71 in 458 Win. Have it rebarreled to a .50 Alaskan. I think the total price would be around $1000. McGowan in Illinois used to do the conversion. They will shoot a 510 grain Kodiak bullet at over 2000 fps. Whack the barrel off a bit, and they are easy to carry. Put a Trijicon ACOG sight on it. Anything over 100 yards would be pushing it.
The problem is, you would need someone to reload for up. Ammo is not available over the counter. I've got two.

If you must use a lever-action as your backup, get a Browning BLR and rebarrel to .458 Win. Use the heaviest blunt-nose monolithic solids you can, allowing for perfect feeding.

Put an idiot-proof sight set-up on it so your tracker cannot screw it up while he carries it for you.

99.9% of Cape buffalo run away from you when hit; hope that your tracker is still beside you when that other .1% happens.

George

Since you asked Boss.

quote:

With P+45LC rounds I can get a 2nd shot off fairly quickly with decent accuratcy and I can shot it one handed if needed. Something that eludes me with a casull round.

And while we're at it:

"I've carried .FA with Corbon hardcast on my last boar hunt. which I do feel is an appropreate round for 120-150# size ferral hogs."

Virually anything will kill hogs of that size, how does this relate to your post?

"Being rather ne on this site, I don't understand the reason for your condesending attitude....Is your "shtick" here?"

You ain't seen condescending fella, but if you want I'll turn it up for you. You posted a question and I have responded with good intention. I do not see your conjecture about carrying a backup rifle while bow hunting as being practical for many reasons, that is my opinion. I did not respond seeking an argument about the subject, and you are free to ponder my comments or stuff 'em, your choice. Most will tell you that I do not habitually play nice at the expense of truth, the Small Game Forum being an notable exception.

It is one thing to chat about facing the music, another to do it.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.


Jayco, 'nough on that subject, we could go round and round for too long I think. I got some data somewhere around here on some .454 loads "bigger" than 300 grains(cast BTW), I'll send it to you somewhere along the way.