I'm planning an Alaska DIY black bear hunt for this fall and was wondering what loads y'all like for blackie hunting with a 45-70 GG. I was thinking about buying some buffaloe bore loads, but I'm wondering if thats really necessary. Handloading is way more fun anyway..

Expected ranges are <100 yds close but there's alway a chance of that 150 yd shot.

I reload for my Marlin Guid gun. Here is my load I use. Worked great on 2 black bears and very accurate. I get my cast gas checked bullets from Montana Bullet works.
45-70 405 gr. Cast H322 49.0 gr WLR or CCI-200 2.550

My deer ammo would work well. Win 300 Partition. That Nosler bullet has what it takes and with mild recoil. I think the Barnes all copper bullet as loaded by www.corbon.com [their DPX load] would do as well.Unfortunately the 350 PMC is no longer available.

A plain Remington 300 grain JHP would be fine. My personal load is 56.5 grains H4198 for around 2300 fps in a longer barrel, probably 2200ish in the GG. I dropped a doe at 285 yards this year, and it penetrated from the hip out the chest...it ruined some meat. At close range the bullet also went all the way through another doe, no "blow up" of the bullet.

68 gr of Goex Express 2fg and a 475 gr paper patched bullet would be just about perfect.

Brent

Wayfaring Stranger, as you live in north Idaho and are a reloader, I suggest you go to Marshall Stanton's site, www.beartoothbullets.com, and look into his hard cast gas check bullets. They are the best around, in my opinion, and you can also access some very good advice on loads for your .45-70, re bear.

He probably doesn't live far from you as he's north of Coeur d'Alene.


Good luck.

L.W.

I used barnes 400gr flatnosed softs and enough rl7 to get 1750fps. knocked my alaskan black bear flat.
Dean

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
68 gr of Goex Express 2fg and a 475 gr paper patched bullet would be just about perfect.

Brent

This is a new one to me. Black powder and a patched bullet? How does that shoot out of a 18.5" bbl?

quote:

Originally posted by Leanwolff:
Wayfaring Stranger, as you live in north Idaho and are a reloader, I suggest you go to Marshall Stanton's site, www.beartoothbullets.com, and look into his hard cast gas check bullets. They are the best around, in my opinion, and you can also access some very good advice on loads for your .45-70, re bear.

He probably doesn't live far from you as he's north of Coeur d'Alene.


Good luck.

L.W.

Thanks for the link - I'm headed up that way soon.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
68 gr of Goex Express 2fg and a 475 gr paper patched bullet would be just about perfect.

Brent

This is a new one to me. Black powder and a patched bullet? How does that shoot out of a 18.5" bbl?

Just fine I'm sure. I don't have a barrel that short, but it works in a pistol of you want it to.

I hunt with only paper patched bullets and bp. I use single shots but a lever is fine too. That's what they were originally made to shoot anyway.

Brent

My black bear load is:
Marlin 1895 45-70 22" barrel
300 grain Speer UniCor hollow point (#2482) seated to 2.53" and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primer
55 grains H4198
2175 fps, approx. 28,000 CUP

If there are brown or grizzly bears in the area then a stout 400 grain might be in order:
Marlin 1895 45-70 22" barrel
400 grain Barnes Original FN seated to 2.54" and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primer
43 grains IMR4198
1900 fps, under 40,000 CUP

I haven't shot any bears, but anything in north america that can be killed with a 45-70 will fall to a 300gr nosler partition in front of 51grains of IMR4198.

From several published tests and my own if there is anything you can load into a Marlin 1895 will be second best in penetration to the partition.

AD

You might want to look at a hard cast bullet compared to your Nosler partition.

I think it is a false statement that "anything you can load into a Marlin 1895 will be second best in penetration to the partition."

Not by my penetration testing I have done...

Sounds like someones been brainwashed. A heavy hardcast LBT style cast bullet will out penetrate a 300 grain Nosler by about twice! Try it sometime, I have. Too many armchair theorists read something somewhere, and it becomes gospel. Don't mean to be rude, but I had my own cast bullet company for several years. I've tested .45-70 bullets in particular for about 30 years; killed about 450 head of big game animals, seen a lot more shot, and have a damn good idea what will do what. Any magazine claiming a 300 grain, .45 caliber jacketed bullet of any kind, will out penetrating a heavier, flat nosed, hardcast is not worth the fire starter it was printed on, and the writer that said such should be fired! Cuz it ain't so. As well, the Speer 400 grain FP is a very soft bullet that is designed for use on Deer sized animals. They shoot great, but I have had several fail to penetrate through many small Deer on quartering shots. I would not use one on a large animal such as Elk. My favorite bullet to date, is a plain base, 475 grain, wide flat nose from a custom mould. At exactly 1,548 fps, it seems to hit harder on impact than anything I have seen so far. The younger shooters of today have a tendency towards lighter faster bullets in any given caliber, and some calibers work well with them. The .45-70 is not one of them, and infact suffers to much for my tastes with ANY bullet under about 400 grains. And yes I know lighter bullets will kill game when all is right; hell, I killed a damn horse with a .22 CB cap! But I want a bullet that will get to the vitals when all is wrong!

BrentD--I have shot a 511 grain paper patched bullet over 70 grains of Goex 3f Express in my Marlin Cowboy 45-70 with a 26 inch barrel with Ballard rifling. It easily shoots into one inch at 50 yards with the standard issue buckhorn sights.

As DavidW said, a 475 grain plain base flatnosed bullet works extremely well. I also load a Lyman 457121 with 66.5 grains of 3f Express in my 1895. It will shoot as well as you can hold it, literally pouring them into one hole. This, along with the Lyman 457193, a flatnosed 420 grain bullet, are the bullets of choice, giving outstanding penetration.

All of these HIT HARD and are accurate. I would use any of them for any bear that walks.

When selecting a bullet for your black bear hunt, choose a bullet that will get the job done on anything else in the environment that might have YOU on the menu. Hunting in Alaska means there are much bigger critters lurking in the woods than black bear. Use a heavy hardcast, such as the BTB 425gr Pile Driver Jr. It's a nice blend of speed and mass. Sure, you don't need anything that big for black bear, but it will get the job done on anything you may encounter.

My Guide Gun "Mjolnir" really likes the Winchester 300 gr Nosler Partition factory load for accuracy, but I've yet to run one through a bear and they've become ridiculously spendy. As others have mentioned were I hunting in Alaska and/or looking for an especially large black bear I might try a heavier bullet. Mjolnir likes the 350 gr Hornady, Remington 405, and cast 400s quite well too.

nordrseta--I also have a rifle named "Mjolnir", only mine is a 15 pound bull barreled Shiloh Sharps in 45-110. A friend of mine who is third generation Norwegian named it after he saw how hard it hit a steel target at 400 yards.

I have used cast bullets for years, and went to South Africa last year for plains game, using another 45-110 Sharps and 555 and 527 grain cast bullets. I shot through and through seven animals, including kudu, black and blue wildebeast and gemsbok from every angle, including lengthwise.

I have taken two black bears in Canada, and the 420 grain cast flat nosed bullet will simply hammer them. My Marlin Cowboy with the 26 inch barrel holds nine rounds, and its ease of carrying and light weight coupled with REAL firepower makes it one of the very best hunting rifles.

I also load a 480 grain cast flatnosed bullet when I want maximum penetration, but the 420 will shoot through an elk.

My Mjolnir has its name engraved on the left side of the receiver. It's been refitted with a real recoil pad, the WWG trigger kit, a Lyman receiver sight, and the lowest Marbles fiber optic bead front. If I had it to do over again the Cowboy might get the nod. Seems to me it could be shortened if handiness were an issue. I may take it to Africa when I go back as it seems just the thing for quick close range work in the bushveld. Mjolnir, a nice kudu, and me would make for a memorable photo. I've got some LBT 420s but I haven't played with them yet. As deadly as they look sitting still they must be quite the hammer at ~1800. A fella might do the trackers a favor by bobbing the barrel to remove the ports though...

Last fall I shot my Black Bear with a 350gc cast running at 1950 fps out of my 1895GS, worked flawless. I have done some tests with some hard 405gr I cast. At 1340 fps they will go through 18" of sold white pine.Last fall made me a believer of hard cast out of my 45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
You might want to look at a hard cast bullet compared to your Nosler partition.

I think it is a false statement that "anything you can load into a Marlin 1895 will be second best in penetration to the partition."

Not by my penetration testing I have done...

Not entirely, because uness you are talking about multiple creatures cooperatively standing side by side for your test in 99% of hunting situations you'll run out of creature before you run out of penetration with a hot handloaded 300gr.

Additional penetration beyond the far side hide is a complete waste.

Besides, there is a backlash comming, the hard cast bullet set are intentianally making bullets that DO NOT expand and that violates the spirit if not actually the letter of the game laws of the 40-some states laws I've taken the time to read.

virtually ALL prohibit "full metal jacket OR other bullets designed to NOT expand"

One of these days F&G people are gonna catch on


AD

I don't stick only to the partitions I also load cast bullets, but they are soft ones that do expand, but a 400gr bullet
is gonna penetrate anyway.

Penetration as a be-all-end-all is fine for INDOOR SPORTS
but for bullets expansion is necissary...

Complete weight retention is only useful for arguements by the obsessive-compulsive, not as a real world "necissary thing".

I've shot 400gr bullets thaqt expand through a deer... End-to-end... and through a tree and imbeded the bullet in a second tree

Just how much penetration is needed to kill most animals?

The Original poster is talking about hunting Black Bear which don't have a reputation of being particularly hard to kill... or requiring more penetration than is typically needed to kill an average deer... So why the talk about "hard cast"?

Hard cast MAY be necissary if you want to hunt cape buffalo with your 45-70, but otherwise?

Are you expecting to meet a Mammoth or Mastadon?

I've done my own penetration tests on wet newspaper... I stack my newspaper in "Bankers"
document boxes, I quickly discovered that at 100-200yards ANY bullet I've ever loaded in my 45-70 would fully penetrate the first 20" box and some would fully penetrate TWO boxes
400gr barnes and 300gr partitions would penetrate 4-6" into the third, this ammounts to nearly FOUR FEET of penetration.

what out there can't be killed with that much penetration?

You saying BS is itself BS.

AD

Never seen any wet newspaper bundles running around in the woods. Could be 'cause they ain't got any bones. 'Cause if they did have bones, it could be a problem for a soft nosed bullet, penetration wise.

Then you've only got one hole leaking blood(or ink) instead of the two you would get with a hard cast bullet and maximum penetration.

Besides that, boiled newspaper tastes like crap.

You need an entrance AND an exit wound. Entrance wounds tend to close up due to internal pressure in the body cavity pushing flesh from the inside out. EXIT wounds tend to stay open because this same pressure pushes things from the inside out. Two holes leak more blood than one. But more importantly, they leak AIR. Air leaks cause the pressure differential between the chest and abdominal cavities to disappear, and this causes the lungs to collapse.

SUFFOCATION is what kills. Whether it is caused by blood loss, or the nervous system shutting down, or the lungs collapsing, when the system runs out of oxygen, the animal dies.

A complete pass through is more effective at killing than a bullet staying in the body. The old argument about foot pounds of energy shocking the animal to death is just that--an argument. If shock was the major killing component, you could shoot an animal in the rump with your mega magnum of choice and get one shot kills. It doesn't happen.

You've got to hit them in the right place, and complete pass throughs are a big plus with a good hit.

Allen, not completely dispelling your comments, but really wondering if you have shot an animal with a Large Meplated Hard cast bullet. With it, you don't NEED any expansion. It creates a wound channel as a good expanding bullet does, without expansion, and much better penetration to boot. The exit wound actually bleeds out the animal quicker than the entrance, let's air in, and stops an animal faster than with onlt an extrance wound. This leads to more humane kills. Now if you are refering to hardcast RNs, or something with a small meplate, then I agree with you. Until you have tried them, I would not be knocking them.But I have tried it, and done it, have you? I dislike the entire idea of Bowhunting, as we find dead Elk, Deer , and Black bear in the woods that have been stuck with an arrow and not retreeved. But it is legal so I don't put it down as a sport. If you are against cast bullets for hunting, you are about 200 years too late to complain. I've only killed about 40 head of game with hard cast, and they dropped pretty fast, as I shoot through the shoulders most always, and it works well. I have have a jacketed bullet fail to penetrate the small shoulder of a blacktail deer. It was with a Nosler partition, which I'm sure you have heard of. But I'm not telling you that you can't use one, and would be foolhardy to do so. But I am calling Bullshit about not using cast. If you don't want to hear it, it may be wise for you to move on to a anti hunting forum, or take up knitting. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:
Never seen any wet newspaper bundles running around in the woods. Could be 'cause they ain't got any bones. 'Cause if they did have bones, it could be a problem for a soft nosed bullet, penetration wise.

Then you've only got one hole leaking blood(or ink) instead of the two you would get with a hard cast bullet and maximum penetration.

Besides that, boiled newspaper tastes like crap.

I used wet newspaper only as a test media because as I've already said and you are too busy arguing to be able to read:

"I've shot 400gr bullets that expand through a deer... End-to-end... and through a tree and imbeded the bullet in a second tree"

So I ask AGAIN, how much penetration is necissary? if the bullet expands and STILL exits
all your hyperbole about not seeing newspapers is revealed as ... hyperbole!

I've NEVER recovered ANY bullet, even a 300grain Hornady from any animal I've shot from my marlin. and oh yes, those bullets did expand.

sharpsguy, read my post and try again.

All the Black Bears I know who hunt with a .45-70 use hot hand loads. Too Hot for a lever gun. They usually hunt over bait (a few old Filet-O-Fish or some Hot Wings) from a branch. Most are good climbers so they don't use a stand! Just sit on a big branch and take aim while Bubba is on the bait. Not all that productive as Bubba has a weak sense of smell and pretty much has to stumble on the bait or use a map or GPS or something. Penetration is never an issue as a mild growl from the branch usually drops Bubba with a Heart Attack.

Macifej,

that really sets a better "tone" than I was managing.

I shoulda said "any 45-70 load that fits in a 30-30"
As plenty of blackies have fallen to whatever Fedremchester
bothers to load in their cheapest 30-30 ammo.

If the OP wants to use his 45-70 that's his choice.

but the outrageous comments saying what's "Needed"...
it just cracks me up... It's a black bear, not a Kodiac.

Funny thing is last blackie I saw going through a checking station (they check bears here) was actually shot with
a 25-06... go figure...


AD

AD, YOU need to try again. I have never seen a good hard cast bullet shot out of a 45-70 fail to penetrate the shoulder of a bison. I HAVE seen three different 45-70 jacketed bullets--all perfectly mushroomed--taken from the onside shoulder blade of a bison, none making it inside the chest cavity.

Keep on shooting your 350 grain jacketed bullets into wet newspaper. They work on thinskinned game and small ungulates to be sure. But one of these days you're going to encounter some real bone, and won't have the bullet integrity or mass to drive through to where the bullet needs to be. A good 420 grain or heavier cast bullet keeps on penetrating long after the 350 grain jacketed bullet quits, and like it or not, you get better results with an exit wound. Penetration counts, and you are a LOT better off if you have to break the shoulder of a black bear with a good heavy cast bullet than a light jacketed one.

If you want to see some REAL penetration, try a round nosed 520 grain Government bullet cast at 30-1 out of a Sharps. I shot a black wildebeast end to end last April in South Africa. The bullet entered inboard on his left hindquarter, and came out his chest. That was over 70 inches of penetration. There is no way you would get that with a 350 grain jacketed bullet.

If you are going to shoot bears, use a bear bullet.

Excuse me Allen, but I noticed you contradict yourself in two of your posts. You say 'expansion is neccesary' in one, then that 'all these statments about what is NEEDED cracks you up, it's a black bear, not a Kodiak.' I think we all need to stop for a moment to let you get it all figured out. IF you ever get a chance to hunt with heavy hard cast, large meplate bullets, you will learn that they don't NEED expansion, cause they are already expanded! The jacket pointy bullets need expansion to imitate the cast. But for now, you go ahead, take your time, maybe go do some cast bullet shooting, then get back to us. We'll wait.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I used wet newspaper only as a test media because as I've already said and you are too busy arguing to be able to read

quote:

"I've shot 400gr bullets that expand through a deer... End-to-end... and through a tree and imbeded the bullet in a second tree"

And you're too busy trying to prove you're an expert to pay attention.

You claim you have used 400gr bullets that end for ended a deer, penetrated a tree and went into another tree.

Just how often does this occur? Check one:

[] Always

[] Almost Always

[] Sometimes

[] Only between 10:15 and 11:35 AM on Tuesday

A heavy hard cast will do it nearly everytime without fail.

Just so you'll know, DWright and I are good friends. We have about 85 years of hunting and shooting experience combined. We shoot nearly every weekend and sometimes in between. We do not shoot paper from a bench except to sight in a new rifle. We are out in the real world testing different loads in different calibers (25+). Mearsuring penetration in clay and honing our off-hand shooting skills at long range (300+ yards.

Our experience and knowledge isn't out of a book. It is based on hands on experience and physical results.

A handgun plinking spot. Shooting a .45LC Ruger.


Where we hunt.

Sharpsguy...

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:all your hyperbole about not seeing newspapers is revealed as ... hyperbole!

hy·per·bo·le [hī púrbəlee]
An exaggeration: deliberate and obvious exaggeration used for effect.

Geez!! Ya think???

Exit wound is a waste.

When you zap a bambi, bambi can bleed out internally just as fast as externally. So when I hit an Elk in the lungs with cheap 130gr bullet launched from a 270W, the bullet doesn't exit, but the Elk goes down fast. The bullet will make a mess of things.

When you zap Bambi in the lungs with a .459" hardcast, wide meplat, you drill a hole through and through. Bambi dies about as fast as if hit with an arrow. The bullet doesn't really make a mess.

Expanding bullets work by crushing tissue - more tissue than can be done with a hardcast.

If you need high penetration - hardcast is the way to go. Although the Nosler 300gr has been proven to be an excellent penetrator. But if you only need about 18", say to take down an elk, then lots of 45/70 class bullets will work and they don't have to exit.

quote:

So when I hit an Elk in the lungs with cheap 130gr bullet launched from a 270W, the bullet doesn't exit, but the Elk goes down fast.

Never shot an Elk with a .270, but I read an article in an old American Rifleman (1960s) on the result of a study done about using the the .270 on Elk.

If I recall correctly, out of 18 Elk he shot with a .270 not one of them went down fast. He even recorded how far they ran after being shot. Also the sex and weight of each animal.

And as far as the exit wound being a waste? Obviously I do not agree in the least. And there is absolutly no valid comparison with an arrow. Not even close...

You have an OK day too.

quote:

If I recall correctly, out of 18 Elk he shot with a .270 not one of them went down fast.

Must not have been Jack O'Conner.

As far as dla's delusion that hard casts work little better than an arrow, it is well documented that hard cast bullets with wide meplats can create just as large primary and secondary wound channels as jacketed bullets that expand. Wide meplats create wide cavitation and most often exits. Hard cast bullets also generally penetrate better and maintain their integrity better after hitting bone than most jacketed bullets. The value of exit wounds in killing and retrieving game is also well documented. Sorry dla, you are wrong again.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:

quote:

If I recall correctly, out of 18 Elk he shot with a .270 not one of them went down fast.

Must not have been Jack O'Conner.

As far as dla's delusion that hard casts work little better than an arrow, it is well documented that hard cast bullets with wide meplats create just as large primary and secondary wound channels as jacketed bullets that expand. Wide meplats create wide cavitation and most often exits. Hard cast bullets also generally penetrate better and maintain their integrity better after hitting bone than most jacketed bullets. The value of exit wounds in killing and retrieving game is also well documented. Sorry dla, you are wrong again.

As usual, your reply is mindless. A bullet that expands out to 0.9" makes much larger temporary and permanent channel than a .459" wide-meplat hardcast. What little you did get correct is that wide-meplat does much better than roundnose. What you get with wide-meplat hardcast is better than solid bullet wound-channel with better than expanding bullet penetration.

So wide meplat hardcast is a great solution for utilizing marginal cartridges in applications requiring great penetration.

A legal broadhead in Oregon must have a minimum of 7/8" (.875") cutting diameter. Most are 1 1/8". Lots of very large Elk die every year because of an arrow passing through their lungs. Hardcast doesn't deform, and Elk don't hydralicly explode - the bullet just drills right through. By the way, that is what a 170gr 30-30 will do from 200yds out, except it's only a .308" hole.

Actually my reply was mindful. Mindful of the many studies that demonstrate that a hardcast bullet with a 0.360" meplat and a relatively modest impact velocity of 1600 fps will create approximately one and three-quarter inches of wound cavitation. A Garrett 45-70 550 grain Hammerhead will create a 2" wound channel on a black bear over bait. Please consider the following:

quote:

"Assuming that a bullet creates at least a 3/4 to 1 inch (19 to 25 mm) diameter hole through the vitals (a well placed shot), penetration is the more important of the two functions of a bullet for the big game hunter. A 3/4 inch (19 mm) hole which severs major arteries or passes through blood bearing vital organs will cause a rapid loss of blood pressure and will drop most targets within 50 yards. This is not to suggest that extreme cavitation will not cause an animal to succumb more rapidly. It could. However, bullets which cause extreme cavitation generally do not penetrate deeply and may not be suitable for some aspect angles due to the depth of penetration required to reach vital organs or the presence of interposing heavy bones. On the other hand, if only broadside body shots are taken, extreme cavitation may deliver the highest proportion of rapid kills."