Anyone else thought of re-chambering a 3rd Gen. Winchester (Miroku) .405 to a 411 variant of the 416 Howell?

Case length
405 , 2.58
416 , 2.5

Rim 405 , .543
Base 404 , .544

OAL
405 , 3.18
416 , 3.365, 3.340 ??

I have seen 71's and 86's and Marlins modified for 45-100/416 or 50-110/416,--

however, I am somewhat partial to the 1895 Win.

(Aside: I have seen (1) one 1895 Win.(in the flesh) with a curved lever- very nice aesthetics.)

I wisgh I had a 416-405 so i could use all my 416 bullets in it!!!

Looks like an easy conversion to me. Post up some photos when you have it completed!

DB,
If you are interested in a NIB TD Miroku 1895 in .405,(like mine) I know a person who I think will part with his for a mere $1,100. The TD is soo much easier to clean, and work on (throating, rechambering, etc.)

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
DB,
If you are interested in a NIB TD Miroku 1895 in .405,(like mine) I know a person who I think will part with his for a mere $1,100. The TD is soo much easier to clean, and work on (throating, rechambering, etc.)

PM sent

Dugga

My thoughts would be Why???

With the case volume, and pressure constraints of the 405, why go to the extra expense???

I had a detailed conversation with Mike Brady, ole ownedr of North Fork about the 405, after shooting his..

Reason;
One of the complaints about the 405, back in the day,was because of the 300gr bullet, it was fragile and had low SD for BIG big game.

There were 300gr Solids for it but they were a little fragile as well.

Problem is, it is hard to get the required velocity for heavier bullets...

Well the new Hornady 405 has a much better soft than the original "back in the day" ammo.

And the 300gr North Fork is a great bullet. It expands very good, and with its solid rear shank it cannot fragment...

North Fork will make you a FP Solid at @360 gr if you just mustshoot a cape buff or elephant with your 405...

Well,
besides the fact that I think it's a neat project;

the Miroku's are chambered in 270, which has a ANSI/SAAMI average pressure of 64,000 and a proof load pressures of 83 to 90,000.

My thoughts were keeping pressure around 30-06 levels or less, while pushing a 400 gr (or a 350-360) to levels energy levels above the 5400 joule minimums for DG (in many areas).

The .405WCF even with handloads at high pressure,
barely makes the minimum joules limit and more importantly, its' officially recognized CIP or SAAMI load does not qualify.

Which with the variability in African governments and officials is a potential issue.

The 411 Hawk also barely attains the requisite number at high pressures.

The 411/416 Aagard is another possible route, as is the 411/416 Ruger, each with smaller extractor/rim grooves and bases( slightly).

The 450/400 could also be adapted by turning the rim down.(and reshaping and shortening.)

I have a supply of 404 brass that the rims are above the "designated" .537 nominal diameter.(.543)

So as above:
Case length
405 , 2.58
416 , 2.5

Rim 405 , .543
Base 404 , .544

OAL
405 , 3.18
416 , ??

So,
with minimal extractor, bolt face and magazine changes with keeping the OAL 3.18 to 3.21'ish ,the proposed cartridge should easily reach energy requirements while having moderate pressures. Using a TD as the project rifle I could also build a .30 Howell front end.

Actually, as envisioned it might be considered more akin to a short 411 variant of the 416AR ,more-so than the Howell, due to the planned sharper shoulder and lack of taper, though off a 404 parent instead of .550 brass.

There is always the "WildCat " confusion potential with the game departments but the physical size of the round should alleviate energy concerns.

Also,
the 1895 is my favorite lever,
it would probably be much easier to get a Pistol grip BLR TD in 300 Win Mag and build a .458 front end, which I am also seriously considering, due to readily available ammo in Africa,
but,
it would not be an 1895.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Dugga
My thoughts would be Why???

With my summary of initial planing thoughts--

What do you think?

Ideas---

Thoughts---

Critiques---

Anyone??

http://forums.accuratereloadin...391027921#3391027921

Honestly? Ken said he liked the ARs better than his own, as I did them directly from the RUM cases, and you can get headstamped brass...

the 416 AR is an excellent choice, BUT
seriously BUT
the 458 can shoot rem 405 FP bullets at any speed YOU can hold on to, and that's perfect for a lever gun

At this juncture I am considering both projects-

The sticking point with the .458 BLR is the "lug" or barrel/ frame adaptor/interface.

You must either create one or remove(perhaps drill) an existing barrel out of an existing BLR TD --or machine a new lug--as Browning will not part with one.(to my knowledge) additionally, from what I was told, the custom shop has NO interest in making a .458 front end.

The 1895, is my preference,
(without a re-barrel)
and
it appears (to me) all I would need to create would be a reamer ( and dies, of course).

(Dave Manson is more than equal to the task of creating the reamer(s) and unlike others have stated, CH4D has always been good to me, both in product quality of dies and service.)

I may very well, build both projects.

Wich is why I am serious in soliciting ideas, critiques, etc.

Dugga

I can understand that you are a 1895 Freek...

It is my favorite Lever Gun as well...

So, being conservative, what do you think your velocity with a 400gr bullet would be?

What powder?

The need to keep the OAL shorter than Mr. Howell's original may cut into powder space a tad.

That's OK, his cartridge was to be in a bolt and at magnum pressures.

The loads he originally wrote about was, IIRC,
were with 330 and 300 gr bullets.

300gr, 95 gr. of 748 with velocity of 2750
330gr, 80 gr. of 748, @ 2650

My plan is to arrive in the 2080 to 2200 range with a 400 gr. with pressures in the 48 to 54K range.
(or slightly faster dependent on the final case design calculations)

{ I would like to keep pressures below the .411 Hawk and the pressures generated in a hot-loaded
400gr/405WCF with 4895, Re-7, 3031 or 4064)

I suspect that a number of powders will work.

Initially I plan to start with 4831
(as I have a supply) keeping pressure lower than some of the slightly faster powders,

though I suspect such a powder will be be the final answer.( 4064, 4320, 4895, etc)

Case capacity (though I have not settled on a final case length--)
will be less than the 100.8'ish grains of the Howell and
about or slightly above the 93.3'ish capacity of the Bowman 411 mag.

Send a PM to JudgeG.

He developed some African loads for his 1895 in 405 using the North Fork Solids.

He might have tried some 400gr Wodleighs as well.

One thing to consider...

One source, Kymoch Limited, 1902/1903
Shows the Tropical load for a 450/400 [56 gr Cordite vs 60, also most Jeffery rifles were regulated with a 55gr of Cordite load] to have 2000fs in a 30 inch barrel.

Most Jefferys had 24" barrels. So I doubt if they broke 1950fps.

In all the old African Elephant hunting books I have read I have never heard anyone talk about the lack of killing ower of a 450/400.

I have killed bull elephant, cape buff and lion with mine.

So if you can get an honest 1950 to 2000fps with Solids in the standard 405 case, you can aviod the Potential Insanity.

I contacted Judge G last year as well as a few others.
I developed loads with solids to 2040 and 2080.

The case stress indicators at non-African temps (0r for that matter,Texas summer temps) as well as the "CIP" and game department position on "original" loads both provided impetus to "expand the 1895's envelope"

I will leave my CCH Texas edition as a 405.

Today I acquired a new blued TD as the project rifle.(at a great price)

I may even use a newly constructed front-end to spare the original barrel from the alteration-- don't know yet.
Guess I'm headed toward two new projects.

Congrats on the new 1895 .405 TD - glad you brought it to Texas.

My 1895 405 is the color case reciever Take Down.

I really like it.

I think your 4831 will be way too slow for the expansion ratio. The powder that delivered the highest velocities in the 411 Hawk was AA 2230, followed closely by BLC-2 and H4895.

I also suspect as much.

Just thought it was a stating point with some what less pressure risks to start from.

My current 405 400 gr loads reaching the higher velocities are with XMR-4064.