Worht the conversion from 45/70? What are the pluses? Drawbacks?

recoild sensitive I am not...so thats not what I mean. Do I need one? Nope! But may want one.

Thanks for the help.

A bigger diameter bullet is not always the answer. Thats why I went with the 450GNR....which is the 50 Alaskan necked down to 458 caliber and blown out some. Adds about 300 fps over a hot loaded 45/70 and has some serious power. A 50 Alaskan get you a larger diameter, but slower moving slug...not necessarily better performance on game. I feel the much faster 45 caliber slug has better on game performance and the bottleneck cartridge feeds better....otherwise I would have built a 50 Alaskan. If I am not mistaken, Doug Turnbulls new 470 and 475 caliber cartridges are similar, but I think one of them is built on the 50/110 cartridge. They are also good options as well.

Looking to sweeten my stock Marlin GG. I get what you are saying....First thought I had was just keep with the 300gr TSX loaded hot or the Beartooth cast 405gr bullets. I really cannot think of anything that bullet will not punch through.

I once read an article in handloader magazine by Dave Scoville about the 450 and 50 Alaskan. If I recall correctly, Harold Johnson (the creator of the 50 and 450 Alaskan) said that performance of 50 Alaskan was better than that of the 450 Alaskan on big Alaskan game. Three hundred feet per second more than +P 45-70 Levergun loads with the 450 GNR sounds quite optimistic. The 450 Alaskan only gains about 100 to 150fps over the Heavy +P 45-70 levergun loads with a 400gr pill. This info is from Handloader magazine as well.

From shooting and seeing others shoot bison with 45 and 50 caliber WFN bullets, 45 cal. will make through and through holes from most angles. If you are quick on the trigger with a lever gun you can usually shoot them at least twice in the chest before they hit the ground. The 50 cals. penetrate just as well and make a noticeably larger diameter hole. I really love my 50/110 conversion with 525 WFNGC's at a little more than 2000fps. I shoot large bovines because it is fun and most of them will be shot from this point on with a 500 s&w, 50/110, or 505 Gibbs. If I am feeling traditional my 50/90 C. Sharps Arms will get the nod. Lots of folks have a 45/70 Marlin and it is all you need but if you try it and like the meat, give it a go with the 50's.

Blake

I have killed 3 bears with mine. It hits alot harder than a 45/70. I use 535 grain woodleighs at 2050 fps. The only drawback is the same drawback of the 45/70--- 200 yard max range before you have to start worring about bullet drop.

If you don't mind my asking, how much did Turnball hit you for? And what is the 100yard accuracy of your rig?

I like it a lot.

My 50-90 Sharps puts moose on the ground with more aplomb than anything else I've used. It is pushing a 500 grain flat nosed bullet at 1400fps, which doesn't seem like much but the terminal results speak for themselves. I don't feel under-gunned with it and would take on a brown bear with it without reservation. Jim

C-Matt, optimistic? Nope. Chrono'ed 300fps over the 45/70 hot loads. I have 4 Marlin Guide guns, 3 in 45/70 and one custom in 450GNR. The best I can do with MY loads with the 45/70's shooting 405gr Remington SP is just past 1800fps with the shorty barrels. The 450GNR w/ 18" heavy barrel gets past the 2100fps mark. I think I can get 1900fps with the 500gr slug with no problems. Of course, with lead GC they can both go a bit faster still. The 450GNR has more case capacity than the 450 Alaskan. The shoulder is pushed forward a bit yielding just .210 neck length, which seems to be enough to hold the bullet from jumping the crimp and the shoulder is sharper due to less body taper. I feel the much faster .458 caliber 400gr bullet trumps the slower moving .50 caliber 500gr slug. Perhaps comparing the 338 RUM mag to the 375 H&H in smack-down dramatic performance gets the point accross better. If I thought the 50 Alaskan was better, thats what I would have built...the cost is the same.

I have built both (450 & 50) on Siamese actions.

Both are potent--

It is truly a matter of preference-

I am currently considering a .500 version of the 50/110 on a 71 Browning--

just because

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:
If you don't mind my asking, how much did Turnball hit you for? And what is the 100yard accuracy of your rig?

I like it a lot.

Biscut, pm sent.

Thank ya sir!

You will be just as happy with one of the new '86 clones built into a 50-110. I have one with a 30" full octagon barrel and full length magazine. Saw one when I was about twelve, and that image never me. I think it holds about forty rounds.

Rich

quote:

I think it holds about forty rounds.

Rich, I think 30++ of them must be on your ammo belt!!!!

Why not a 45/90 ? I load it with IMR 3031 and use a 300 Gr hollow poing from Midway Over 2,000 FPS , T Rex ammo .

Woodrow...Have you ran any of your loads through QL or any other pressure estimating system?

And...does your rifle have square threads or V threads?

I have a 45-70 barrel coming for my swap barrel Marlin 336 and have been playing around with trimming both a 45-90 and 458 WM to 2.25" as 2.65" is max feed length for my modified carrier and the 430gr TruShot cast lead bullet crimp in the OEM crimping groove at that length.

I was thinking of rechambering the barrel using the 458 WM reamer but calling it a 45 X 2.25" so I could shoot both cases throught the mage AND a full length 45-90/458 WM as the first shot...keeping the pressure within Marlin pressure limits. Basically similar to what I did with my 3.050" max mag length round SMLE. I also load a full length 45-100/459 WM as the first roung with several bullet weights seated ~0.275" deep but loaded to ~45KCUP.(SMLE receiver pressure limit)

The 450 GNR sounds very interesting but the velo's have me a bit concerned as my Load from a Disk is putting out some excessive pressure numbers at your velo's and bullet weights...at least for the square threaded Marlin barrel.

But I'm always interested in wildcats of ANY kind so the GNR cartridges have always gotten my heart rate up.

I designed a 45 cal with similar dimensions to Gary's 450, but with a longer 0.300" neck. After crunching the numbers for the Marlin I decided against it as the results showed it took more powder just to equal standard velo and the actual additional velo gain wasn't worth the cost of a reamer and dies.

I keep running into the pressure limits of the Marlin receiver so going with a 50 Alaskan or similar proposition, probably will be just about max bullet diameter...for the square threaded Marlin at least.

Thanks

Luck

I am not sure what the barrel threads are since it is a full custom by Reeder w/ his heavy bull barrel installed. It is a handy, powerful package and while the recoil is stiff...it is managable. Garys 450GNR case uses a very short neck to maximize powder capacity thus having a larger combustion chamber, which lowers pressure....and I have not run it thru any QL systems...which as you stated is just an estimate and not an accurate number. The 1895 action is quite strong so I have no fear of shooting these heavy loads. I have already shot perhaps 60 rounds thru it with zero pressure signs.

I would have to guess the feeding of a necked cartridge would be much smoother than that of the larger 50 caliber cartridge.

Recently rec'd e mail notice from Turnbull that they are now offering their own mfg. '86 in 50 Alaskan as well as others such as 45/90, etc.
Price is some 2,000.00 with their CCH treatment and considering a build from start to finish, would say a good value.

here is my turnbull 92--- about $500 more than a USRA.

50-110 is available at added cost. Yes, the rifles they build are added value in my book!

Thanks Woodrow...I need to contact Gary and Doug to gather up more information on how they do the threads and which receiver they use.

I stepped back from my hopes of doing a 50 AK on my Marlin 336 receiver...it would need some internal milling to even get it to handle the 45-70 rim, but I did open it up a bit to handle a 450M/458 WM case. I don't want to mess up the switch barrel aspect of the project by opening up the receiver threads either, as that would totally screw it up for the other barrels.

I don't know what type and kind of steel is in the Marlin barrels so that is a bit of a bump. I'm asking the various barrel makers for the specs on their CM barrels as there as many different 4140 steels used in rifle barrels.

What I'm running into is some levergunsmiths are adament about NOT doing the 50 AK on the Marlin actions because of the pressures or possiblity of overloading to turn it into a "magnum" so to speak. but as is the case there are many who are doing them, many have been done in the past and they are working out fine so I'm on the fence until I get more data.

I wanted to use a 2.65" or longer COL but getting those lengths to feed becomes a problem also.

I would have to acquire a 450M for the V threaded receiver before I jump. But the price of the rifle, barrel and gunsmithing I can't do would be half the cost of a Turnbull, so why bother with doing it myself.

Buckeye...that is a beautiful piece of shooting material to say the least...I REALLY need to hit a LOTTO otherwise all I can do is drool.

Luck

Mine is built on an 1895 Guide rifle as a platform, with a heavy StSt 18" bbl and ghost ring sights...a full custom job. I also have the 450GNR in a 14" heavy bbl Encore S.S. handgun but have not shot it yet. Gary makes very nice leverguns and while the long barreled ones with the CC are nice....I like mine short/compact and powerful. Gery can do a nice levergun with the old fashion look also, if thats what you want. He has some interesting cartridges too. I also have a 14" heavy Encore bbl in 416GNR as well...which you can get in a levergun...along with 475GNR, 476GNR and 50 Alaskan. FYI, the 450GNR holds 10gr of powder more than the 450 Alaskan cartridge. Really, I don't need or want any more than that in a levergun. It's max for my body.

That's true about bullet diameter size...the 50 AK has to run lower pressures while the 45-70 and 458 case can run "normal" pressures.

Using a 458 WM trimmed to 2.20"(same case volume as a 45-70 and similar to my 458 American SMLE) and the 525 BT WFNGC bullet the COL would be 2.65", net capacity ~44.5 gr H2O and will work easily through my slightly modified 336 and will run at the bottom end of the 50 AK velocity.

Since my 336 will feed the 458 WM case at 2.65" I will just rechamber with the 458 WM reamer and call it good.

I don't want to get thinner than ~.105" on the shank walls so that precludes the 50 AK right now. A 458 x 2.35" dummy fired in my SMLE and unsized, will drop almost to the belt right now in the Marlin 45-70 chamber so the chamber is already oversized for a standard 45-70...basically all I'm doing is "throating" it a bit.

I have emails out to Doug and Gary for information so time will tell.

LUCK

You should all ..., take a good look over on another thread (Big Bore : Terminal Bullet Performance), to see whats possible, using the old " 45/70 Cartridge " with the " New CEB Bullets "..

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/154

PAPI