Gents:
I just picked up a bunch of old Winchester catalogs and looking through them is a very interesting step back in history. For you Wincheser people, answer me this: Why did Winchester produce the model 1894? They had the big game 1886 and in 1892 made the '86 in a scaled down version for the smaller cartridges of the 1873 model. Why, then, didn't Winchester just make a medium sized 1886-style for the .30-30 etc.? What advantage did the 1894 action have that could not have been done in the same style of action as the 1886 and 1892 but in a size for the newer .30-30, .32-40 etc.?
Just curious, that's all.
Thanks for your time.
Cal

The big advantage of the 1892 is that it is a scaled down 1886, thus, a known dependable design. Also, the 1866 and 1873 are toggle link actions which are designed for black powder pressures. A modern smokeless magnum hand gun round would damage them in short order. The 1892 on the other hand can take 357 and 44 magnum rounds and some folks have even used the 480 Ruger and 454 Casull (Rossi). The advantage of the 1894 vs the 1886 is two fold, 1st much lower cost to manufacture thus lower selling price and secondly a lighter finished rifle.

The 94 is not a scaled down 86. It is a totally different design using the solid rear locking block, and the dropping lever link, neither of which the 86 has. Those two features are key to the design, that and being made with nickel steel barrels.
The 92 is sort of a scaled down 86, but only for pistol cartridges.
Why the 94? it is made for smokeless cartridges, (30-30) on a much smaller and lighter frame; most hunters didn't need or want a huge 86, nor the large cartridges it held. Designed in the black powder era. Yes it was updated in the 71, but by then, no one wanted large lever actions, but the smaller 94 and 30-30 still sold well to deer hunters. Hunters quickly realized that the tiny 30-30 shot flatter, hit hard enough, and could be made in a 6.5 pound carbine; all advantages over a black powder era rifle.
Whilst the 94 was made for pistol cartridges, it was a bad idea; the action was not made for ammo that short.
So, the reason for the 94 is; smaller and lighter rifle, cheaper to make, and the 30-30, all made it sell millions more rifles than the 86 did.

For one thing, the 1886 is a black powder era gun.
The 1894 was designed for smokeless (the .30 WCF) even though the .38-55 version was released 1st.

We now have 1886 and 71 actions made of newer steels, and are much stronger than an 1894. That wasn't so in the year 1894.

Think of those who argue that a double rifle in .45-70 is ineffective since .45-70 is a BP round.... It WAS a BP round at 18000 psi. Now a modern 1886 or double rifle will handle 28000 to 30000 easy. Some much more.

IIRC, Browning's mandate from Winchester was to design a rifle that was the size of an 1892 but would handle the more powerful (and longer) cartridges. Thus the complex lever mechanism that allowed the receiver to be as short as possible.

Quick answer its shorter & lighter.

The lever link system of the 94 allows for a shorter / lighter weight action than a action of similar design to the 86/92 handling the same length cartridge.

When John Browning patented the 1894 design Winchester already had recognized the need for a lighter rifle able to handle a real rifle length cartridge. I am not sure if Browning did this on his own or at Winchesters request.

As a note the design was patented on Aug 21, 1894 and the first guns were completed Oct 20, 1894. I wish all manufacturers could move that quickly today.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
The 94 is not a scaled down 86. It is a totally different design using the solid rear locking block, and the dropping lever link, neither of which the 86 has. Those two features are key to the design, that and being made with nickel steel barrels.
The 92 is sort of a scaled down 86, but only for pistol cartridges.
Why the 94? it is made for smokeless cartridges, (30-30) on a much smaller and lighter frame; most hunters didn't need or want a huge 86, nor the large cartridges it held. Designed in the black powder era. Yes it was updated in the 71, but by then, no one wanted large lever actions, but the smaller 94 and 30-30 still sold well to deer hunters. Hunters quickly realized that the tiny 30-30 shot flatter, hit hard enough, and could be made in a 6.5 pound carbine; all advantages over a black powder era rifle.
Whilst the 94 was made for pistol cartridges, it was a bad idea; the action was not made for ammo that short.
So, the reason for the 94 is; smaller and lighter rifle, cheaper to make, and the 30-30, all made it sell millions more rifles than the 86 did.

You are correct, I typed 94, I meant 92. I was told once that the 92 was scaled down 33% from the 86, but I don't know if that ratio is correct. The under rated gem of the bunch is the 1895.

As Kebco indicates, Browning's revolution with the 94 was giving a lever-hinge depth/bolt throw approximating the 86 in a frame the depth of the 92, whereby the small frame could handle a longer cartridge.

Probably more 94's sold than any other centerfire rifle.

There is no doubt the lighter and handier size of the 92 model played a big part in its popularity.

As I understand it, Browning's brief was to design a rifle that was the size of the 92 but with the ability to handle longer cartridges. This necessitated a redesign of the internals to create a rifle that met the design brief. If you compare a 92 receiver to that of a 94 you will find they are very similar in length, width and depth. The design was so close that I believe stocks from 92 were interchangeable with early 94's.

This would explain why there was no mid size action based on the 1886 design.

Lets not forget in 1894 most folks still traveled by horseback, and the 94 was then and is today the best saddle gun ever made. It was flat and didn't put pressure on your leg, could be carried butt rearward on the right side of your horse and quick to get into action, didn't require constant cleaning and became every bit as much a part of folks as the horse itself and the colt single action revolver. Every rancher and farmer owned one or more, and almost overnight the American hunter was killing game at 300 yards with that little old pencil gun that hardly kicked and if it did kick you could get it in 25-35..Every cowboy in the USA owned one and still does, then before you knew it so did everyone else, last count was 7 or 8 million sales. Someone had to get a promotion at Win.

The Only SLIGHT impediment to it's amazing popularity at the time was that because of it's materials and machining it was quite expensive at the time. so, having one before the turn of the century was a status symbol.

For people who carried it daily it was one, because of it'slight compact form they could not be without.

One feature makes it better than any previous model; the drop lever link allows a shorter receiver than the 86 lever design. Remember that in the 86, the lever is attached/pivots on, to the locking block; not so in the 94. That, and the invention of smokeless powder which allowed far smaller cartridges to out perform the BP ones insured the 94 was the highest production commercial rifle in history.
(Not sure where the Rem 700 is but it is probably close if not more but that is a different animal)

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
One feature makes it better than any previous model; the drop lever link allows a shorter receiver than the 86 lever design. Remember that in the 86, the lever is attached/pivots on, to the locking block; not so in the 94. That, and the invention of smokeless powder which allowed far smaller cartridges to out perform the BP ones insured the 94 was the highest production commercial rifle in history.
(Not sure where the Rem 700 is but it is probably close if not more but that is a different animal)

Exactly. The idea behind the model 94 was to make the smallest package that would fit the new .30 WCF cartridge. It took a couple years before Winchester actually chambered the 94 in .30WCF though due to the metal the initial rifles were made from. Not until the new nickel steel barrels came out did Winchester actually chamber the 94 for it.

It was thought of as a powerful, flat shooting cartridge compared to the older bigbore black powder rounds. The model 94 still holds the title as the most produced sporting rifle of all time. The Remington 700 still has to sell a few million more rifles to catch up. We may have different tastes today but as a pure hunting rifle it's about the best designed rifle ever. Light,fast handing and accurate enough to handle the needs of most hunters in the real world. That's why it remained so popular.

Recently added a 94 to the stable. It sure is light and handy. But I'll take a Marlin for field stripping and cleaning any day.

Im one of the few who was around at the turn of the century. We were a ranching family with lots of Mule Deer and Coues deer on our big desert ranch, we hunted Colorado every year for elk..We hunted and guided hunters on our ranch..I never saw a 1886 Win. or a 71 Winchester until I left home and moved to El Paso some 20 some odd years later...Our paying camp hunters and friends and family all shot Win. mod. 94s, mostly carbines and mostly 30-30 caliber, everybody did back then. Some owned mod. 92 that granddad passed down, but used them for rabbits...Then one year the Savage 99 in 250-3000 and 300 Savage showed up and got sorta popular with the more informed. My dad was not one of the informed but ended up shooting the 250 Savage 99 FWT, and that's another funny story, and so did I.
I was in my late 20s or thereabouts when the surplus 30-40 Krags showed up but not many and they were not popular locally..Later on in life the 30-06 and later the 270 win mod. 70, followed by the Rem 721 and 722 showed up, and were popular, but the Win. 94 30-30 remained the bread winner, even for Mule deer and to this day its still the ranchers pet, and ever kid grew up with one, and a whole lot of folks still have one in the closet. To this day if yu ran into me in the South Hills of Idaho I might have a 30-30 or 25-35 in my hands unless Im trophy hunting..For one not to not have a Win. 94 is just plain damn un-American!!

That's about how it was in my geographical location, Im sure it varied back East and up North but not a hell of a lot. Still see a lot of 30-30s and 32 specials in the hunting fields. where the timbers thick and dark.

I was around at a turn of a century too! Oh, you mean that other century.
When I was deer hunting in WV in the 50s and 60s, two rifles made up at least 90 percent of the rifles used; Winchester 94s and Marlin 336s. Surprisingly, lots of M1 Carbines used by WW2 vets. Too weak? Sure, but there were few deer to kill anyway.
Guys with bolt actions were look upon as strange creatures.
Right; anyone who does not own a Model 94 is un-American. I have six or eight; lose track of them after awhile.

I have two lever actions an 1894 Winchester Chief Crazy Horse Comemerative in .38-55 and an 1894 Marlin in .44 Remington Magnum.

I love both of them.

I would suspect that the 94 was a cheaper to produce mechanism than the 86? Fewer parts and less machining. I would have to take the two apart and count the pieces to verify this. The 94 does carry well.
C.G.B.

About the same in parts, but neither is prone to failure, Look how many are still out there still shooting and some have never even been cleaned!!

I forgot to mention that the Win 95, 30-03 was popular in the Texas high desert and they all shot 30-06 factory ammo in them!!, it shot further was the reason they said, but they shot them with iron sights, not much advantage over the 30-30 when your shooting irons, does the 06 kill better, only past about 300 yards.

Thinking back and comparing today..Its now the golden rule that one must have a flat shooting 25-06 or 300 Win. to hunt deer in that area, but we did just as good back then with the 30-30, why is that? Its all we had and we apparently made do and knew how to hunt with what we had. That hasn't changed much these days, knowing your territory is the real secret to success. I know when hunting the desert and its rimrocks, and if your horsemanship is good, your shots will be closer, but quicker in that bailing off the horse and shooting offhand is the norm. those big bucks lay up tight under a rimrock and when they jump they are gone over the next hump in a hurry..

If all the long range guns were taken away from most of you, you would be surprised how successful you would become with a 30-30 carbine and iron sights in a short time and how many deer you could kill at up to 300 yards.

Back East its still as good as any other caliber for deer, and a whole lot handier than anything else.

Of course their are better calibers to hunt with but not until you mount a scope on them

Fun thread

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I'll take a Marlin for field stripping and cleaning any day.

To field strip the Marlin, one needs a screwdriver to remove the lever, the Winchester can be opened up with a punch. Otherwise they are about the same for ease of dismantling/assembling.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Im one of the few who was around at the turn of the century.

Really? In the whole world, there is only one person that was born in the 1800s, and that person is a woman.

I own 94s in 32 spl,38-55, 30-30 for the hunting I do in Pa. they are ideal. Yes I own a safe with rifles that cost up to what I paid for my first home, but those 94s have seen a lot of work by myself an started all my children out shooting.
I will add to the mix...then along came Marlin with their slick actions in 336, 895, etc. ... several of them occupy space in other safes. So many guns so little time to shoot them all.

AZ,
I guess it seems that long ago!! at any rate in the 1940s is when I was introduced to the rifle, A SS 22 short drop box., after I learned to shoot it, I made 25 cents for each pair of Javalina ears I could present to dad..I made a lot of money shooting Javalina with a 22 short. a few years later had it opened up to 22 L.R. but it didn't work with L.R. but it was fine with the standard longs..I was ok with that. Before long I got a Win. mod. 63 and a Rem mod 12, still have those two..