two weeks ago i got a marlin 1894 44mag and liked it so much I just picked up a marlin 450 think i'm hooked on levers.

Levers are definitely a great rifle. I've owned several and still do have a couple different lever guns.

I did have a .450 Marlin, but decided to sell that. When I decided that I needed a .45/70, my wife said, what'll it do that your 450 won't? I said, "A 450 is kind of like a .45/70 on steroids," but a .45/70 can be loaded cheaper and easier to high performance. So she said, "I'll buy you a .45/70, but you'll have to sell the 450 first."

So with a deal like that, the 450 was sold, and I'm loving my Marlin .45/70.

Enjoy your new rifle.

I have a Marlin M1895 .450Marlin. One of the first rifles came to Germany with the ported 18,5" barrel. I´m not a hunter, but it´s great rifle and the round is very easy to reload.
Here in Germany are great discussions about the sense of the .450Marlin and the .45-70. Here it´s not allowed to reload the .45-70 over the CIP maximum pressure. So it´s a little bit difficult to get the necessery 2000Joule @100m for hunting. With the .450Marlin there aren´t such problems, at least here in Germany.



At the moment, I´m thinking about to rebarrel the rifle to a 20"-24" octagonal barrel. To use it for cowboy shooting.

Martin

Here a handload with the 300grs Hornady HP and 55grs of N200.

Martin

I have been training for last two weeks hopefully i can shoot it in the week im home befor i deploy.

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
Levers are definitely a great rifle. I've owned several and still do have a couple different lever guns.

I did have a .450 Marlin, but decided to sell that. When I decided that I needed a .45/70, my wife said, what'll it do that your 450 won't? I said, "A 450 is kind of like a .45/70 on steroids," but a .45/70 can be loaded cheaper and easier to high performance..

That does not make sense. How can it be cheaper to reload. Primers, bullets and powder all cost the same for either round.

The .450 can be loaded to higher pressures in a lever gun than a .45/70

Other than that, there is little difference in reloading.

Off the shelf ammo is cheaper for the .450 when comparing loads of equal bullet weight, velocity, and energy. The standard .450 ammo is more powerful than the standard .45/70 ammo. You have to buy the premium .45/70 ammo to get rounds that are comparable to the .450. The premium .45/70 ammo is about $3 a round, .450 ammo is $1.60.
.450 ammo can be found even at Wally World, Buffalo Bore .45/70 ammo can not.

Just the facts, plain and simple.

When I sold my .450 and bought the .45/70, brass was a LOT cheaper for the .45/70, and that's one of the things I consider, the cost of brass.

Maybe the .450 can be loaded to higher pressures, but it's not always about pushing the bullet faster, and there's something about using a cartridge that's over 100 years old that has an appeal.

And now that I'm using Garrett Cartridges, I don't even have to reload to get top performance.

I'd take the 450 over the 45/70 anytime, I've shot both and own both.

I have multiple 45-70s (a Marlin 1895G, a GS, and an SS, a #1, a Remington DBL rifle and a Siamese Mauser conversion) and a Marlin 1895M 450M. I also reload.

There is one manufacturing difference between the 45-70 Marlins and the 450 Marlins - that is the threading between the barrel and the receiver on the 450 is stronger.

A personal use observation is that the cartridges pass through the loading gate easier on the 450s than the 45-70s. I presume this is due to smaller diameter base of the 450 case.

Since I reload, both can be loaded virtually identical, though with the previously mentioned stronger barrel/receiver connection on the 450 I feel a bit safer loading the 450 a bit hotter than a 45-70.

"The threading between the barrel and the receiver on the 450 is stronger"

Can you elaborate on that statement a little? If the 450 (like the 45-70) is built on the 336 receiver I don't see how there can be any difference in strength. About the only thing they could do to the 336 to add a little strength would be to change the tenon threading from square to a "V" profile. If Marlin has made some kind of changes for the 450 cartridge I'd like to hear more about it.

Jon:

Couple of years ago I was thinking about swapping a ported 45-70 barrel for a non-ported 450 barrel. Figured it would just be a one for one swap. Gunsmith said no can do due to different threads. Called Marlin to confirm. Don't recall the "exact" difference but remember that I was told the threading was different and stronger on the 450M because it was intended to withstand higher pressure factory loads which was the entire reason for the development of the 450 - to take advantage of modern powders in a factory load without risking blowing up an old Trapdoor. The "Belt" on the 450 was to keep them from being used in older rifles and also is sized different enough so it won't chamber in a 458 Win Mag or the Win Mag in a 450.

Remember the 450 was designed and came out before Garrett and Buffalo Bore etc. were selling the hotter 45-70 loads.

Edited to add:

Just double-checked my "Modern Reloading - Second Edition". The max pressure load listed for all modern lever actions is 28,000 psi. The max pressure load for the 450 Marlin 42600 psi.

Understand people push those harder and that is up to them. The max pressure listed for a 45-70 in a "Modern Rifle" i.e. Ruger #1 or Bolt action, is 50000 PSI.

Edited to add again:

Just checked the Hodgdon Reloading Data web site.

Highest pressure load they list for a Modern Lever Action in 45-70 is 40000 CUP and for the 450M is 42600 psi and Modern Rifle 50000 CUP.

The following are the dimensions of a 2007 Marlin 1895 "Cowboy" 45-70 I re barreled a couple years ago:

Receiver width (marlin 336) 1.020",
barrel tenon OD (top of threads) .775",
tenon OD at bottom of threads .705",
Chamber ID .505".

You can see from this that the wall thickness of the chamber (at the bottom of the square threads) is only 0.35"! I'm amazed at the hot loads people shoot in these guns but I guess Marlin knows what it's doing because few of them blow up. I'm only a amateur gunsmith but it seems to me that unless Marlin increases the width of the receiver, allowing a larger tenon, the only way to put a little more metal there is to go to "V" form threads. I wonder if that's what they did with the 450? Maybe someone could put a dial caliper across the receiver flats on their 450 to see if it's wider than 1.020"?

Jon:

Did a little research and I think you are correct. It appears that Marlin is using a "V" shaped thread with more total thread count on the 450M instead of the "U" shape thread on the other 336/1895s. The "V" shape combined with the increased number of total threads creates more surface area to spread the pressure over.

Again, I fully understand that many hand loaders run powder/bullet combination in the 45-70s that reach published 450 pressures. Personally, I like the extra margin of strength engineered into the 450 version of the 1895.

It would make sense for Marlin to switch to a finer "V" form tenon thread, say 20tpi like Savage. It would also make sense, from a manufacturing point of view, to make the change on ALL 336 actions. That would add a pretty fair amount of metal to the tenon AND the receiver. The old (square) threads were fine for the original cartridges but are a little out of place given today's quest for velocity.

Thanks for the comments m3taco. If you hear anymore details about this issue please post them.

Factory 45-70 ammo loaded by Buffalo Bore will out do the 450 marlin. 3670 ft.lbs and still safe in the Marlin rifle.

Bigdoggy:

Contacted Buffalo Bore yesterday and asked what chamber pressure they loaded the 45-70s and 450's to.

Steve replied they were both loaded to 43K psi and the reason they don't push the 450 harder is due to the belt and stronger webbing of the 450 slightly reduces case capacity and very quickly increases pressures when approaching max.

While BB has a good reputation and makes fine ammo and has done their own testing, etc., personally, given the SAMMI spec difference between the two cartridges and the engineered/designed specs of the two rifles, I am not sure I would feed a 45-70 Marlin a regular diet of BB. That also goes to say I don't normally (but have) reload either above published pressures.

That is my personal choice and everyone is fee to do their own research and make their own choices.

That said and to show I am not "hot load" immune, I do have a Custom Siamese Mauser converted to 45-70 that I feed 63gr of H4198 under 350gr Hornady JFP and the new Nosler 330 Banded Solid used for the 458 SOCOM. This is going to Namibia next month and if the Banded Solid gets the kind of penetration on large bodied PG that Michael458 over on the bullet test got on wet paper, next year I will use it on a DG hunt and maybe a PAC Jumbo.

quote:

Bigdoggy:

Contacted Buffalo Bore yesterday and asked what chamber pressure they loaded the 45-70s and 450's to.

Steve replied they were both loaded to 43K psi and the reason they don't push the 450 harder is due to the belt and stronger webbing of the 450 slightly reduces case capacity and very quickly increases pressures when approaching max.

While BB has a good reputation and makes fine ammo and has done their own testing, etc., personally, given the SAMMI spec difference between the two cartridges and the engineered/designed specs of the two rifles, I am not sure I would feed a 45-70 Marlin a regular diet of BB. That also goes to say I don't normally (but have) reload either above published pressures.

That is my personal choice and everyone is fee to do their own research and make their own choices.

That said and to show I am not "hot load" immune, I do have a Custom Siamese Mauser converted to 45-70 that I feed 63gr of H4198 under 350gr Hornady JFP and the new Nosler 330 Banded Solid used for the 458 SOCOM. This is going to Namibia next month and if the Banded Solid gets the kind of penetration on large bodied PG that Michael458 over on the bullet test got on wet paper, next year I will use it on a DG hunt and maybe a PAC Jumbo.

I agree… and… All that said, I do hand load the 450M to get more variety of bullets.

They are both excellent cartridges but I have chosen the 450M and when you look at the reloading manuals for Marlin Lever Action Rifles, regardless which one is faster the difference is not worth mentioning.

But as mentioned Above,Marlin did feel the need to change the threading to add to the strength of the rifle. You pays you money, and you get your choice.

Here is a great article that compares the Marlin 444, 45-70 and 450m.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

Lots of technogeek stuff but makes a very good reference point on how hot you decide to push the loads in your Marlins.

m3taco,

Thanks that was a good read.



T

The thread type for the 45-70 and 450 M has been hashed out fairly well on a couple of the Lever gun forums.

Part of it is the fact the "V" threads are not as deep and not as much metal is removed compared to the square threads which adds quite a bit of strength...and different heat treating adds strength also.

For those who want even more hair, look up 450 Yukon...it's basically a 45 WSM although the origninator uses a cut down RUM case and a simple rechamber on a 450 Marlin ONLY...will get you well into the begginfermersee zone...were talking making a 458 WM sweat and you don't have to push the pressures sky-hi.

Luck

m3taco, great read, very thought provoking.
I shoot a Marlin and routinely handload my 300 grain bullets around the 36500 psi mark and the 400 grainers closer to 40000 psi.

Over the years these "feel" close to max in the Marlin. I guess you've gone some way to confirming what I've thought.

Cheers, might save one of us a limb.

quote:

Originally posted by Jon:
The following are the dimensions of a 2007 Marlin 1895 "Cowboy" 45-70 I re barreled a couple years ago:

Receiver width (marlin 336) 1.020",
barrel tenon OD (top of threads) .775",
tenon OD at bottom of threads .705",
Chamber ID .505".

You can see from this that the wall thickness of the chamber (at the bottom of the square threads) is only 0.35"! I'm amazed at the hot loads people shoot in these guns but I guess Marlin knows what it's doing because few of them blow up. I'm only a amateur gunsmith but it seems to me that unless Marlin increases the width of the receiver, allowing a larger tenon, the only way to put a little more metal there is to go to "V" form threads. I wonder if that's what they did with the 450? Maybe someone could put a dial caliper across the receiver flats on their 450 to see if it's wider than 1.020"?

No, mine is not wider than 1.020"at the top. The bottom of the receiver just in front of the loading port and before the "flair out" does measure 1.030". Mine is stainless. I've read that V form threads are twice as strong as cut threads, so that would account for the extra strength.

plenty strong enough if you don't overload the pressure!

Got to love a 450, this one is the ported model.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Fan:
I have a Marlin M1895 .450Marlin. One of the first rifles came to Germany with the ported 18,5" barrel. I´m not a hunter, but it´s great rifle and the round is very easy to reload.
Here in Germany are great discussions about the sense of the .450Marlin and the .45-70. Here it´s not allowed to reload the .45-70 over the CIP maximum pressure. So it´s a little bit difficult to get the necessery 2000Joule @100m for hunting. With the .450Marlin there aren´t such problems, at least here in Germany.



At the moment, I´m thinking about to rebarrel the rifle to a 20"-24" octagonal barrel. To use it for cowboy shooting.

Martin

I was stationed in Germany for a few years. I wanted to bring my rifle over but was soon informed how difficult it is to own a rifle. What looked like the best option for me was a hunting club, but as you have stated, the standard 45-70 doesn't make the energy requirement and you can not go by energy levels attained by reloading. I feel for you on needing the 450 marlin

if you have to, or even feel you might need to, rely on factory ammo, the 450 marlin wins everytime in terms of power, "freak" 45/70 loads not withstanding.

if you reload, and will NEVER have to use factory ammo (driving 400 miles, and having no ammo would suck), then either one is fine

othe rthan belt or rim, they are, close enough, the same case