With good starline brass how much more velocity could one obtain with a 400 gr bullet over the standard 45/70 in say the reproduction 1886 extra lite rifles made by Mirouko ??

I have one on lay-away and am either considering a 45/90 or 50-110 and if you get a significant power increase over the 45/70 with the 45/90 I may opt for that due to ease of bullets etc.

I would doubt that you would gain much of anything going to 45-90. You will give out before the rifle or brass does.
I'd guess that the 45-90 brass costs twice as much as the 45-70 brass, that's in addition to the cost of converting the rifle.
Jim

Kev,

I would be interested to hear what can be acheived with the 570 gr bullets. Just out of interest woodleigh have also introduced a 600 gr protected point for the 500 Jeffery, means with a little bit of a file you may get a 585 gr bullet and I bet the 50-110 would send that out at around 1900-2000 fps

Go 50 Alaskan or 50-110. The 50 gives much better performance than a 45. I get 2460 FPS from a 300 grain Barnes in a .50 Alaskan with a 26" bbl. I get 2200 FPS with a 450 Grain. Also, can get 1800 FPS with a 535 grain Woodleigh (but you need to file the nose flat). can't get near that with a .45.

to answer your question, I got on my chronographed loads some years back about 150 to as much as 200 FPS more out of the 45-90 all things equal..That is substantial with 400 and 500 gr. bullets...

Thanks Ray and others,

It would be a lot cheaper to convert this extra lite to 45/90 than to 50-110. I firstly would not have the cost of the extra barrel, just ream out my existing one a tad more. Secondly it would seem the 45/90 could drive the 400 gr bullet at 2000 fps and no 45/70 is approaching that. By the same token the 50-110 is the more powerful round....and that makes it very interesting

Just a word of advice. If you have not fired the rifle with full power hand loads in 45-70. Then I would suggest you do that 1st before making any changes. The 45-70 in itself is not that bad. However, the stock design of many of the guns it is chambered for, leaves much to be desired.



I have Marlin with 26" octagon barrel. From the bench with heavy hand loads, it kills me. Any other position, I am fine. Some people I know simply won't touch it in any position.



On the other hand, you may not share that problem.



Pete

Is there really a difference between a 45-70 and 45-90 if you are using heavy (500 gr+)bullets? I believe that the 45-90 has an OAL of 2.88". If that is about the max for the 1886, what would you be gaining going to the 45-90 since you could just lengthen the throat for the 45-70 to load a 500 gr bullet to a OAL of the same 2.88-2.90"? Wouldn't you just be hiding more of the 500 gr bullet in the 45-90 case. I just got a Gibbs 45-70 that has a verylong throat. I can load 500 gr Hornady SPs at the crimp mark for a OAL of 2.93" (blunt 550 gr to only 2.79" though).

I am just thinking through options, I already have a marlin 1895 in 45/70 and I shoot 400 gr bullets at about 1800 fps, but that is the pistol grip varient and I wonder if the 1886 stock design would be less conjusive to taming recoil ??

Did the 45/90 originate before or after the 45/70 ??

HI,

BUCKEYESHOOTER,I like your idea, I have a 50-110 win 86 by MR. Clay. I have only used HC and I have used Kodiak bullets,500grain, very good bullet.I guess you are using the Jeffery .510?, do you use the RN SN or the PP SN, I would think the PP would be the way to go and a little easier to flatten out?,what I like with the 535 grain is the SD is .304 and I am getting a HC 525 to 2200 fps so 535 grain Woodleigh may be a good combination. Kev

If you already have a Marlin 45-70, why not just buy a 458 Magnum and be done with it? I have seen 2000 fps with 420 grain cast bullets in my Marlin and I'm here to tell you, the gun didn't suffer but I did. The load...har! Just pour in lots of Re7 is all I will say publicly. No there was no sticky cases nor did the action want to open itself. The Marlin is strong, probably more so than the '86. I would like to own one of the new 86 Extra Lights myself, but the standard 45-70 delivers all the punishment I can stand and all any critter can take as well.

If you are bent on having yourself a hopped up lever rifle, by a winchester 95 re-pro and try something like a 375 Whelen. I had one rebarreled to 35 Whelen by Dennis Olson and he does perfect work. The only thing about the '95 is the fact that the hinged lever has a tendency to bite gobs of flesh from my middle finger unless I wear gloves. Loaded up, the Whelen is no pussy with 280 grain bullets.

One final comment on the overly big bores; you ever notice that back in the heyday of big BP rounds, very few folks had guns in 50-110? However, lots of people used 45-70's. Reason is they work....then as now and the recoil generated is on the border of what any sane man can stand.

Kev This is martin from the old Marlin Talk Form
I tryed to get ahold of Dave Clay
I know he is moving from one place to another but its been quite some time i got the lever for the convertion
its a browning 45/70 now i just need that turkey to finishs moving I want my 50-110 NOW !!

I talked with Dave corbin about a set of Swags so i can make my own jacketed bullet for it .
I wound up buying the new press and forming dies and the jacket former and maker .
Funny thing is this all is costing more then the gun will



That dam thing was $ 750.00
The swag dies were another $450.00
The jacket cutter dies were another $ 450.00
The jacket forming dies were the 4 piece set and that
Was $ 550.00
And this is all with out me buying the dang lead or the copper for the jackets ..
I better be able to fill my tags

Pottsy

HI,


MartinPotts, I hope he has your rifle as I just talk to Dave and he has stop taking orders.He has so much work he is trying to catch up. As the other equipment I sure know what you are talking about. I got a Mark v1 resizer that was a bunch and then the moulds pot and so on and so on.Kev

Its nice to talk at you again
And the answer is no i have not sent the gun in he told me he would get back to me on it.

If he cant do it this year i will need some one else to finish it out or UU wana sell yours
Trade ya Ok maybe not. i have my new 45/70 GS
and i have the tungston powder i just need the swag dies
Grrr that DAVE should !! be working on.So i can turn out some very nice - soild tungston bullets - Dave corbin and i have kinda Designed a nice litle 550 grain bullet in .458
For the 45/70 GS to shoot. in about 2 months i will be turning out the new bullet design and be sending them out in sample packets and a very nice 600 grain of a really nice design also i think that 600 is about max bullet size
i want to go for resale as the cost is going to be a killer
At around ( my cost $1.90 to $2.75 each bullet ) and reloading them is going to be a bear with vel/ around 1000 FPS To a Max of about 1300 thats keeping them in the 37.000 psi to 41.00 psi range in the 45/70 ..
anyway thought i would just say hi and nice to talk to you again..
Pottsy

Kev,

I tried making contact with D.Clay and left a message but he never returned it. I have only got ot pay $200US more of my 1886 extra lite, and I was wondering if it would have been just as easy to send it straight to him. But it might be more mucking about seeing as I am in Australia.

Jumptrap,

I have a cz 550 .458 winnie that I had reamed out to a .458 lott (which I love) but I just wanted a grossly over powered lever gun.....

HI,

Martin, do not give up call Dave at 1 817 465 7338 and talk to him since you have started this with him, I would bet he would help you out. Also Martin tungston bullets you say, I would be very interested in a 550 grin WFN in .510 cal, let me know when they are up and running. Kev

PC, I would keep trying to call him, he told me a few days ago he was swamped with work, that is why he has stop further orders, but talk to him first. It took me over a year to get my rifle, but this was before it really took off. I posted his number call again,I know some times he will answer,he is in the shop all the time working. Kev

Thanks Kev,

I am unsure wether to go with someone in the states or pretty well the best smith in Aus who only lives about 10 minutes from me, it would be more convenient to get it done here.....I will ahve to think it over before I finish paying off my 1886 XL.

Kev,

In your opinion do you feel the 50-110 round puts excessive stress on the 1886 Xtra Lite (new Mirouku models). I do not want to go to the expense of building this rifle if it will wreck the action or ruin it because it is really a little to big for it

Kev
Think you would need to use the SP Woodleigh as the PP is longer and you need to file the jacket to get a big enough meplat. With the SP you only need to file the lead.

KEV . i would rather care on this conversation with you through emails as the bullet design is still unpattened ...As far as making you up some 550 grain
.510 Dia bullets for your 50-110.
I will need to know a bit about what you would like?
Just a plain old 550 grain FN or the samething with a
boat tail. the bullets can be made in what ever shape you like. ? 600 grain boat tail .. the ones i am working on are just the .458 dai bullets right now .
It still runs me alot to buy the Tungston powder
Alone with the dies for each cal. a set of dies in ..
510. dia cost about 450.00 theses are swag dies remmber not reloading .and then theres the cost of bullet nose design about ( 125.00 each ) and boat tailing dies for each diffrent design run about 450.00 . in all it take 3 to 4 steps to make each bullet each step cost for the dies..
the only way to make a custom bullet pay for it self is through sales .. i would be happy to make you up a FEW to try out but for me to make more than that would be expencive say 5 to 10 bullets?
after that thay would be about $5.00 to $ 7.00......... dollers each to make up.. If i start running the bullet design the price goes down.
the more i can put out the better the price gets .
But right now this is just chin wagging .
i will keep your bullet size on file .and what you asked for
Please email so i can get a adderss to send samples to
Thanks ahead of time
Pottsy= PA Bullets

Kev,
I use the soft point Woodleigh. Just take some pliers and pinch the exposed tip off, then take some 200 grit sandpaper and lay it on your bench, hold the bullet by the base and make several passes to smooth the face out. I file my bullets even with the jacket. It gives a nice flat profile and I am comfortable using them in the tube magazine then. The fact that they are for the Jeffery means it is a nice heavy jacket. The box gives 1800 FPS as the lower acceptable speed for expansion. With my 26" barrel I can get there. I do not use this loading much over 100- 150 yards so it works fine.

Suggest you play with some loads on this calculator:

http://stevespages.com/brecoil.shtml

Reload the page to change components, or it won't work.

HI,

PC, the action on the win 86 are fine and they can take it, the only problem I have seen is believe it or not is the stock. I have had my hand made by Dave and I have seen a few cracks on the stock by the receiver.The action on those win 86 or 71 are strong as hell.The good thing is the stock on my my 50-110 is synthetic and Dave told me he would put an aluminum insert in the stock near the receiver and it will be fine. This is really the only problem I have run into with the 50-110 and I have shoot well over 500 rounds close to 1000 heavy rounds out of it. Also one must understand this is really a new thing with the 50-110 with smokeless powder, so I feel really good about the win 86. The action on this things are dam strong that will not be the problem.Also ask MR. Ricks here and he will also tell you that these action are super strong.PC do not worry about the action get a heavy barrel, my barrel is a badger and strong stock and it will be fine,I will add that the recoil on the 50-110 is awsome, I have never had a problem with recoil but I can tell you I think many would not handle the recoil from this beast. Kev

Kev,

thankyou for your reply, my mind is more at ease. It's just that I read in a piece of literature how there was not much meat left around the base of the round in the barrel and in one area it was through to the threads of the barrel to facilitate feeding. and I was doubting the ability to handle pressures but als with a a modern 86 and strong brass we should be all go

If recoil is to much I will just back of until I find a level of recoil that I can cope with, I own other big bores so I know what I am in for

Once I get the gun hear then I can start gathering other pieces of the project. I have purchased a lyman 66wb site for it howeever.

Thanks Kev.

HI,

This is the reason MR. Clay puts on that heavy barrel badger. gives that area you are talking about alot more strength.Kev

HI,

BUCKEYESHOOTER, I have been thing alot about your suggestion of flattening down a woodleigh 535 SP. I see a.510 bullet 570RNSN in a 500 nitro. Now if I flatten the nose down to the jacket I bet I still would have a 550 grain bullet, I might give this one a try. I think if you flatten a 535 down to its jacket you must lose 20 grains, so you are looking at 510 grain bullet.And the length of the 570 to the 535 is not that big of a difference.What do you think ,you must also remember that the 50-110 has a little more case room for any add in length of the bullet. Kev

Kev,

.416 measured a 535 sp and your right he lost 15-20 gr and if you seat right to the end of the cannelure on them you will I think get the OAL right for feeding.

I doubt there is anything that could not be stopped with that combo.......the African crowd will turn in there graves.

I think i would rather face an angry cape buff with a 50-110 loaded with a 520 gr woodleigh doing 2200 fps than a .375 H&H with 300 gr bullets, I mean it has to be a better hammer does it not it is almost getting to Jeff figures.

HI,

Thanks with the help PC and I know I do not want to get them mad at the Africa forum either, but if I use one of there best bullets at the the same fps,They will tell me I cannot be using one of those Leveraction things, anyway as long as it gets the job done is all that counts. Kev

To be honest-- I am not positive how much weight is lost. My scale tops out at 505 grains and it still "boings" the balance as max. I was most concerned about having a chain fire-- and my .50 Ak is on a Marlin Cowboy- so I can get 8 in the tube, would be a big bang! I can tell you it hits harder than my .458 WM with 500's.

In the case of the 570 and the 50-110. I would think it is worth a try. The 50-110 does have the extra length. With that baby--use the room for best results! These arenot high speed rounds anyhow so bigger is better in my opinion. Just be positive you get enough speed to get some expansion. Not that you really need any with that hammer!!

HI,

Buckeyeshooter, I had a 50 alaskan and shot it alot, it is a hell of a round.I guess you have those 535 down to 515 grain, which are going to put a hurting on anything around.I have the 500 Kodiak bullets they are great, I just wish they would make them in a .510 550 grain or 535.I am not trying to put down the old 45-70, but the 45-70 and 50Ak are two different animals, night and day. As the 50 cal levers are starting to take off I think we may see more bullets offered by bullet makers and that is only going to make them even better.And thanks to starline brass it has help to reload them at a higher level. Kev

HI,

PC, I talk some with Martin and I am going with his suggestion power grinder and a vise and grind down the nose of the woodleighs to a flat nose.I think I will order both the 570 and 600, I would like to get them down to around 550 grain, as it will keep the length down and I know I will be safe with a flat nose after that. Kev

Kev
What is your max oal?
Think you would need to seat the heavy Woodleighs deeper than the cannelure. Think most of the Woodlieghs are smaller diameter in front of cannelure.

HI,

416SW, I have been going around 2.84, but I able to go to 2.88. That is the other reason I would want to take some off the top to keep that OAL to where I would know it will work fine. I have just ordered today some 570 RN and 600 grain PPSP, so I will find out alot more when they come in. I will use a grinder and work to where it is where I want.I think if I take enough off the top and will have to play alittle, I maybe able to crimp then in the cannelure, but I will let you know when I get all this togather.I also order a case pre station , RCBS and Forster classic trimmer kit along with bullets and grinder. The RCBS case pre station I am tied of worn out fingers you know what I am saying.The cannelure is not so much the problem as long as I keep the length down and by flatting out the nose area I think I will be okay. Thanks,Kev

Kev
Please keep us informed on how those bullets go.

HI,

Alittle up date on the woodleigh bullets, just got done fooling around with a 600 PPSP, I ended up with it weighting at 560 grains.The length of the bullet is now 1.098, almost 1.1, it is just alittle longer than my 525 grain HC, but from the base of the bullet to the crimp groove the Woodleigh is shorter. It will take up less space in the brass, I just got to think about over all length,I still have some more work with this.Also to my surprise the flat nose on the woodleigh is wider than my LFNHC 525 grain bullet. Kev

Sounds interesting, is the diameter smaller in front of the cannelure?
How about the 570sp, have you filed/ground it down yet?

HI,

If I read you right the diameter is the same before the cannelure and after cannelure. The length from the base of the woodleigh 600 grain was alittle shorter than my 525 LFNHC.The nose from the cannelure to the top of the woodleigh were longer, but now that I have shaved them down the length is 1.098,and they weight is now at 560 grains, the length of my 525HC is 1.050, not a big differents now. I will be able to put more powder in the case with the Woodleigh, the DI of the flat nose of the Wood is .435 and my 525 LFNHC is .423.I have not yet done any 570SN, I am fairly sure they will come close to the PP. I have seen now that garrett ammo are going to offer or are making hot laods for the 45-70 with Woodeighs.I think anyone with a 50 cal lever should really look into this. I again got the idea from buckeyeshooter here, thanks,Kev