Anyone try the HSM Bear Load in 45-70 on bear?

Seems like a potent load with a 430 grn Round Nose Flat Point bullet moving along at 1781 fps and over 3000 ft. lbs of ME.

The boxes are marked +P (or P+). LOL, so I imagine it is maxed out on the SAAMI chamber pressure.

Not too expensive either at about $40.00 a box at Cabelas.

I would imagine recoil is tough with a light lever gun.

BH63

Yes I've used them some. For me anyway it's best to shoot to hit some bone with a hard cast otherwise they can zip through which can make for a little longer run before the bear dies. They do leave a big blood trail though.

Recoil wise I don't find them too bad in my Marlin 1895 GBL but everybody is different. For the price they are a good deal.

Buff:

Do you handload? I use Missouri Bullet Co Buffalo #1 405 gr hard cast in my .45/70. Very inexpensive.

^
Nope. That is one vice I have managed to avoid.

Here is Henry's response about using those loads. (I have an H010 lever gun).

"Henry .45-70 rifles can handle any reputable brand of factory-loaded rounds, with standard profile bullets (round-nose, flat-nose, and hollow-point), which the manufacturer states is safe for modern, 1895-model Marlin-type actions.



If the ammunition you are considering meets these criteria, you may use it in your Henry .45-70 rifle.

Please be advised that our rifles are NOT designed to use the overly-powerful ammunition that is made for Ruger No. 1-type actions."

Not sure exactly what that means (weasel-worded for sure).

The Marlin GBL was the model I wanted to buy, but I came across a good deal on the Henry.

I have always preferred shoulder shots on DG, but some people have indicated the 45-70 cartridges do not always break a bear's bones at standard velocities.

I will probably pick up a box. They do seem to be a pretty good deal for the price.

I never feel recoil when shooting at game anyways.

Thanks.

BH63

I have fired just under 100 of these loads in my Winchester 1886. Never at game though. They are very accurate in my gun. The recoil is not too bad but my gun weighs 9.5 pounds empty. It does have the steel crescent butt plate but if you hold it right it is no problem. I've been meaning to run these over the chrono. I'm sure this load would take down just about any bear that roams with good bullet placement.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:


Here is Henry's response about using those loads. (I have an H010 lever gun).

"Henry .45-70 rifles can handle any reputable brand of factory-loaded rounds, with standard profile bullets (round-nose, flat-nose, and hollow-point), which the manufacturer states is safe for modern, 1895-model Marlin-type actions.



If the ammunition you are considering meets these criteria, you may use it in your Henry .45-70 rifle.

Please be advised that our rifles are NOT designed to use the overly-powerful ammunition that is made for Ruger No. 1-type actions."

Not sure exactly what that means (weasel-worded for sure).


BH63

Seriously? it seems pretty plain.

A Marlin 1895 and a modern Win 1886 are very strong actions. Henry is saying theirs is at least as strong as the Marlin. But they can't take responsibility for "Joe Bob's Ammo Co" that sells only at flea markets.
A Ruger #1 is in a class of it's own.
If the ammo says, "Use only in Ruger #1 rifles," it would be wise to heed the advice.

They should work fine I shoot a 460gr cast out of my no.3 at 1450fps never shot a bear with them but shot hogs.

They all died nicely.

quote:

Originally posted by vlwtx348:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:


Here is Henry's response about using those loads. (I have an H010 lever gun).

"Henry .45-70 rifles can handle any reputable brand of factory-loaded rounds, with standard profile bullets (round-nose, flat-nose, and hollow-point), which the manufacturer states is safe for modern, 1895-model Marlin-type actions.



If the ammunition you are considering meets these criteria, you may use it in your Henry .45-70 rifle.

Please be advised that our rifles are NOT designed to use the overly-powerful ammunition that is made for Ruger No. 1-type actions."

Not sure exactly what that means (weasel-worded for sure).


BH63

Seriously? it seems pretty plain.

A Marlin 1895 and a modern Win 1886 are very strong actions. Henry is saying theirs is at least as strong as the Marlin. But they can't take responsibility for "Joe Bob's Ammo Co" that sells only at flea markets.
A Ruger #1 is in a class of it's own.
If the ammo says, "Use only in Ruger #1 rifles," it would be wise to heed the advice.

There are three levels of pressure that modern .45-70 ammo is loaded to:

1) Trapdoor Springfield; this what most factory ammo from Winchester, Remington, Federal is loaded to.

2) Winchester 1886 & Marlin; higher pressure than the above this is what Buffalo bore, Garrett, HSM bearloads are. They're also safe I assume in a Henry.

3) Ruger #1; these are loaded to pressures like for instance a .458WM. Not safe in ANY lever action. I'm not aware of any manufacturer that loads to this level since there's too much chance it would find its way into somebody's lever gun.

Bottom line is no weasel words involved. If you go to the ammo manufactures website they explain this clearly.

I wish some would be more specific about " lever action "
My Browning 1885 does have and operates with a lever .Yet the action type is "falling block " !
Lever or not .action type [falling block etc ]and materials and other design features are more important than does it have a lever.
Yes I'm picky tonight !
At least I don't try the John Wayne type shooting stunt where an Indian at full gallop fires , reloads and fires again at the train with his trap door !!

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
I wish some would be more specific about " lever action "
My Browning 1885 does have and operates with a lever .Yet the action type is "falling block " !
Lever or not .action type [falling block etc ]and materials and other design features are more important than does it have a lever.
:

I don't know any knowledgeable person who calls a falling block rifle a lever action. If they did, would they also call my double rifle a lever gun? It has a lever....

quote:

Originally posted by vlwtx348:
I don't know any knowledgeable person who calls a falling block rifle a lever action. If they did, would they also call my double rifle a lever gun? It has a lever....

The HSM response was in reference to 45-70 ammunition, some of which is apparently loaded to extremely high pressure levels for the Ruger 1, not that a falling block action is a lever action.

As for my use of weasel-wording, they did not answer my question as to the safety of that particular HSM loading, rather they spoke in generalities.

Maybe "plain speaking" for a lawyer, but not for most people.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:


The HSM response was in reference to 45-70 ammunition, some of which is apparently loaded to extremely high pressure levels for the Ruger 1, not that a falling block action is a lever action.

As for my use of weasel-wording, they did not answer my question as to the safety of that particular HSM loading, rather they spoke in generalities.

Maybe "plain speaking" for a lawyer, but not for most people.

BH63

You said Henry made that 'weasel' response.
Henry cannot attest to HSM ammunition. Only HSM can make assertions about the safety of their ammo in certain firearms.

Looking at HSM's website they don't load any ammo Ruger #1 pressure level. Only trapdoor Springfield cowboy loads and Winchester 1886 and Marlin 1895 pressures.

So you should be good to use them in a Henry if they allow Winchester/Marlin level loads. I understand being cautious but IMO you're trying to over think this.

I've shot hotter in my Marlin GBL than what the HSM bear loads are.

On their website (or perhaps its in my owners manual), they say something about standard factory loads from 300 to 405 grains, as I recall.

Like I stated, I am going to get a box.

If nothing else, I might use them for the back up shots in case of a charge by a wounded bear. LOL

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by vlwtx348:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:


The HSM response was in reference to 45-70 ammunition, some of which is apparently loaded to extremely high pressure levels for the Ruger 1, not that a falling block action is a lever action.

As for my use of weasel-wording, they did not answer my question as to the safety of that particular HSM loading, rather they spoke in generalities.

Maybe "plain speaking" for a lawyer, but not for most people.

BH63

You said Henry made that 'weasel' response.
Henry cannot attest to HSM ammunition. Only HSM can make assertions about the safety of their ammo in certain firearms.

This is from HSM's website"

"What firearms can I safely shoot your 45-70 Bear Load from?

As with the 45 Colt, the 45-70 cartridge goes back a long way. There are still many vintage and of course replica firearms available in this chambering.

It also is officially a low pressure round and only select firearms are capable of handling the pressures of modern +P ammunition including our Bear Load.

Firearms capable of shooting our 45-70 +P ammunition:

Marlin 1895
Ruger #1
Browning 1885 High Wall

Keep in mind that some lever action firearms may have problems with loading and/or feeding cartridges using the longer heavier bullets in the more powerful ammunition.

We get a lot of inquiries about firearms not listed. Unfortunately, we do not have any information about the suitability and safety of using +P ammunition in any other firearms. That is a determination that only the firearm manufacturer can make . If a firearm manufacturer goes on record stating their firearm can safely use +P ammunition we will add that model to our list.

One of the manufacturer’s responses we have seen (and received ourselves) is that +P is safe as long as it is within SAAMI pressure specs. This is a CYA response as +P (plus pressure) would by definition exceed SAAMI MAXIMUM average pressure of 28,000 CUP.

Because there are modern firearms that can safely shoot more powerful ammunition than the SAAMI limits, the firearm/ammunition industry has recognized three levels of ammunition for the 45-70. (Refer to Hodgdon’s load data.)

The first level is up to the actual SAAMI limit of 28,000 CUP. This is safe for vintage trapdoor and replica firearms when no other information is available.

The second level can reach up to 40,000 CUP which far exceeds the SAAMI limit. This can only be used in the above listed firearms. This is the level of our +P ammunition.

The third level pushes the pressures up to 50,000 CUP. We do not manufacture this level of ammunition at this time."

HSM says only the gun maker can verify the safety of the ammo in in their guns and you state only HSM can verify the safety of their ammo in a particular brand/model of gun.

Seems like both the gun maker and the ammo maker are CYA.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

Firearms capable of shooting our 45-70 +P ammunition:

Marlin 1895
Ruger #1
Browning 1885 High Wall


We get a lot of inquiries about firearms not listed. Unfortunately, we do not have any information about the suitability and safety of using +P ammunition in any other firearms. That is a determination that only the firearm manufacturer can make . If a firearm manufacturer goes on record stating their firearm can safely use +P ammunition we will add that model to our list.

One of the manufacturer’s responses we have seen (and received ourselves) is that +P is safe as long as it is within SAAMI pressure specs. This is a CYA response as +P (plus pressure) would by definition exceed SAAMI MAXIMUM average pressure of 28,000 CUP.

Because there are modern firearms that can safely shoot more powerful ammunition than the SAAMI limits, the firearm/ammunition industry has recognized three levels of ammunition for the 45-70. (Refer to Hodgdon’s load data.)

The first level is up to the actual SAAMI limit of 28,000 CUP. This is safe for vintage trapdoor and replica firearms when no other information is available.

The second level can reach up to 40,000 CUP which far exceeds the SAAMI limit. This can only be used in the above listed firearms. This is the level of our +P ammunition.

The third level pushes the pressures up to 50,000 CUP. We do not manufacture this level of ammunition at this time."

HSM says only the gun maker can verify the safety of the ammo in in their guns and you state only HSM can verify the safety of their ammo in a particular brand/model of gun.

Seems like both the gun maker and the ammo maker are CYA.

BH63

I don't have a Hodgdon manual to look at, but Lyman and Accurate list the three levels as 18k, 28k, 40k.

Not many gun manufacturers are going to sell something with a SAAMI limit of "x" pressure and tell you to go ahead and shoot "2x" or "3x" at will.
In fact, most say not to shoot anything other than factory ammo, because the only way they can assure the performance of their gun is with a known quantity.

If HSM is manufacturing +P or +P+ ammo, they need to tell you what guns it will safely work in. Or just nut up and try it, but don't blame them when it goes KABOOM.

My response was because you told us you contacted Henry, but then later posted that HSM had made the weasel response. You didn't tell us at that time that both were CYA-ing (as all corporations do)

The only rifle I limit to 18k is my Shiloh Sharps, although it is probably capable of handling more.
I don't have anything at this time I would trust 40k in.
My 28K loads have plenty of wallop out of my Encore, Sabatti, 1886 Browning, Baikal, 1895 Guide Gun and 1885 Browning.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
Anyone try the HSM Bear Load in 45-70 on bear?

Seems like a potent load with a 430 grn Round Nose Flat Point bullet moving along at 1781 fps and over 3000 ft. lbs of ME.

The boxes are marked +P (or P+). LOL, so I imagine it is maxed out on the SAAMI chamber pressure.

Not too expensive either at about $40.00 a box at Cabelas.

I would imagine recoil is tough with a light lever gun.

BH63

I used these in my Marlin 1895 for moose in Alaska last September.

I hit my moose just behind the shoulder at about 90 yards. He went about 50 feet and tipped over. When we quartered him I found the bullet had exited just in front of the off shoulder.

My hunting buddy (normally a bow hunter) used my marlin to shoot his moose at around 70 yards. The bullet hit well behind the lungs and the moose dropped at the shot. Again at quartering we determined the bullet passed through and exited after hitting the first rib on the off side (roughly 3 feet or more of moose).

In both cases the lungs were trashed.

The recoil is brisk at the bench. I didn't notice when I shot the moose. Bottom line I like these bullets. Good price and accurate in my rifle.

DD, pretty much answered the question. So if Henry says they're rifles can handle Marlin 1895 level loads (I'm pretty sure they are) you're good to go. If it makes you feel better Garrett says they are the same as a Marlin.

One thing also mentioned is the overall cartridge length. Some rifles don't handle the Bear Loads well. I've never owned a Henry so I haven't a clue if they can.

My edition of "Ammo and Ballisics" lists the 45-70 SAAMI maximum chamber pressure as 28,000 PSI.

I am pretty much convinced my Henry will shoot the +P load without blowing up, but I wonder how shooting overpressure loads effects the throat and rifling of the barrel (i.e. barrel life).

Anyone have any information pertaining to this.

BTW. I honestly don't believe you really need this much "punch" to kill a black bear under normal hunting conditions, but could see where it would really be handy in grizz country and you surprised one at close range.

Buff,

You might want to read this from Garretts website regarding pressures.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html

I agree the 28000 psi loads work pretty well but the +P loads work much better in my opinion on things like large black bears simply because they put them down more decisively. I just don't like chasing bears into the thick pucker brush where they generally go to die. Guess I'm just getting old.

One of the comments people who don't like the .45-70 say is it takes things too long to die. I agree with this because it's almost always the low pressure loads that are responsible. But use one of the higher pressure loads along with a good bullet and the old .45-70 is transformed. I don't go along with some of the starry eyed faithful that believe the .45-70 can do anything however.

It's a grand old cartridge that's fun to play with and I wouldnt feel in anyway unarmed carrying it anywhere in North America.

Thanks Cougarz. That was a very informative paper.

I agree that following a wounded bear is no fun (I once went into some scrub oak on hands and knees after one. Thankfully it was dead when I found it.)

In Engineering we always had to consider "tolerance stack". That is where several parts can all be within tolerance, but if they were all at the extreme low or high end, the overall combination of the parts could cause failure.

I could see where mixing the Hornady FTX (with a ballistic tip) and some +P ammo might caused unexpected fireworks.

Having a +P load as the last round might make sense as a "do or die" shot (for you not the bear) when being mauled by an angry critter. LOL

BH63

The gummy tip FTX bullet won't set off the round ahead of it in the magazine if that's what you mean, it's been well tested. The only thing it will do is not penetrate a bear very well.

I shot a black bear a couple years back with them and after recovery found both bullets had broken up with little penetration. Yes they did kill the bear after a long run but I at least wont be using them again. They might be ok on a deer however.

Yes I'm pretty familiar with tolerance stackup. 30+ years in the aerospace biz saw to that.

^
Actually I have never heard anyone say anything good about the 325gr FTX for use on bear.

I think I will go ahead and bite the bullet (so to speak) and use the HSM bear load (at least for the first shot).

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

BH63

Got some of the "bear loads". The 430gr bullets cycle through the action without nary a problem.

Now I just need to shoot a few to see what happens. LOL

BH63