Vastly superior bullet selection in 45 caliber: key point for a handloader.

Regards:

J. Shields

Thanks for all of the responses guys!

I am awaiting a quote on a 1895g and 1895gs in 45/70. Although I will probably end up with the G, I was just curious to see the price difference between the G and GS.

GS and G at Basspro here are about $50 difference, not too much for better rust protection and stuff, but supposedly stainless steel is much more visible to game.

quote:

Originally posted by Buglemintoday:


hahahaha that was (2) #4 turkey loads at 45yards and 10yards, and (1) 1 Oz. Slug. 12ga Benelli Nova.

Oh yeah this lever gun may see some Dark Timber Elk Action as well...

American eagle and camo just don't seem right together

quote:

Originally posted by Buglemintoday:


hahahaha that was (2) #4 turkey loads at 45yards and 10yards, and (1) 1 Oz. Slug. 12ga Benelli Nova.

Oh yeah this lever gun may see some Dark Timber Elk Action as well...

You need to post this on the big bore forum.
The last 20 yards must have been scary as hell.

I bought the blued model then spent $16 on a spray can of trucoat from lauer custom weaponry. Stripped the rifle and baked it in the oven. Now it is rust protected better than stainless without the stainless color or shine to make it more visible to game.

(put on two coats and rough it up a little with 1200 grit sand paper)

When I first bought one of those it was a 444 Marlin. I prefered it mostly because of the bullet moulds I have in 429 caliber. Then I found out the action was really too short on a Marlin for cast bullets. And also the Marlins at that time were micro-groove. I tried to shoot 300 grain cast and got 12" groups at 100 yards. It shot 260 grain jacketted bullets well though.
If I were to be looking for one today, I would hold out for a 1886 Winchester in a 45-70. I now have moulds in both the 45 and the 44 caliber so that is no longer a plus or minus for either. Perhaps one of the most compelling reasons would be cast bullets. The 86 has a longer action and can feed the cast bullets much better. However, I have always loved the 86 action.

I've been following this discussion on several forums for quite some time. I have a 1885 in a 45/70 that will take the same amount of pressure as the Ruger #1 while producing at least another 100fps more velocity out of its 28" tube. Mine weighs in at 8.3# and I can assure you when you get much over 2000fps with any of the available slugs of 350gr or more it isn't all that much fun to shoot and I'm happy to have that extra weight. I have run a 300gr bullets to 2500fps and it's not that much flatter shooting than the standard load (like aeronautical engineers used to say, "you can only drive a brick so fast", sure makes a water jug explod). Of course the great thing about the 45/70 is that you don't need that much "steam" for most game, and you don't really need to subject yourself to all that extra recoil for good results on game. Some "experts", including Randy Garrett, claim that you can "overdrive" some bullets (cast in particular) to the point that they will not penetrate a far as those at 1500fps or less. I've also owned a beautiful 1886 Lightweight Winchester in a 45/70 that weighed 7.25#. I had a receiver sight on it and after trying several loads of various weights, I was very happy shooting mostly factory equivelant loads on most occasions. It could certainly handle heavy loads (if not heavier than the 1895 Marlin), which I would have loaded to the max if after game that would bite back. Thing is, I do not live in bear country and if I got to go on that "once in a life time" trip to hunt "Kodiak" that 1886 would not be going with me (I wouldn't be taking the 1885 either). I would take my .375 H&H or .35 Whelen, which is far more "versatile" and "user friendly" than a light weight 45/70 or the "same" power, different packaged .450 Marlin. For an easy "packin" tool to carry in bear country I think those opinions of people that live in those places have my "ear" and just about all say any one of the 3 calibers mentioned will work if loaded right. However, if you are paying money to shoot what you find, where you find it, all 3 are "too short in the legs". To me, they are like choosing a "stopping rifle" to hunt "plains game". Now, the reason I personally like the 444, is not because it shoots flatter, for it doesn't if you consider like B.C's and S.D.'s. The two advantages that stand out to me are in rifles of like weight and configuration (levers) you get "kicked" less considering like B.C. and S.D.s, and every 444 I've ever shot will generally outshoot the 45/70's I've shot and owned without extensive load testing. Now before I "stir up" a 45/70 "hornet's nest", I'll be the first to admit that most 45/70's can deliver just as good of accuracy which has been proven by many a "Sharps" user; but when you start loading for a 45/70 you will find that there are 3 levels of loads that can only be used in certain rifles and a SAMMI specs of 28,000psi that can be easily exceeded (safely), if you know which category you can use, and know the resrictions of your action type, ie. OAL in certain rifles that limit feeding unless adhered to they will perform. In other words, there are so many "perameters" to loading the 45/70 of "your choice" that when you hear someone talk about the "elephant load" you can buy from one company you have to determine if your rifle will be able to handle that load. Marlin's answer of "taking the worry out of too many choices" is the .450 Marlin with their one bullet one load that most users seem to like (I do not own one - only shot one and it was accurate). This is a reloaders forum and you will find that there are "posters" here that can make a 45/70 do just about anything any old African "Express" rifle can do and see no purpose in a smaller bore or "belted" case. I believe a couple fellows named Venturino and Mathews have probably wrote more "ink" on the virtues of the that bore than any other caliber save for the 30/06. It is a caliber that "refuses to dies" for good reason. I don't mind having a .430 bore that is not capable of shooting 540gr Hammer Heads because I won't shoot them in my 45/70. I don't have to settle with 300grHP factory ammo made for "Trap Doors" if my ammo is lost or pay the "high tariff" for "specialize" bear ammo that may be too hot because its over "Speer's" reloading specs. I know I will pick the 444 over the 45/70 if there's elk and bear in the area because it will shoot just as flat and hit almost as hard and I will shoot it better. Just my 2 cents, heck, I would pick the .450/400 over the .450 Express for the same reason - "shootability". Mags

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
My perspective is
They've been making and shooting 45-70s for a hundred some odd years, there's a collective mass of knowledge that is unbeatable. There are uncountable numbers of brass out there.
The 444 Marlin is basically the same cartridge, same power, same guns just a wee bit smaller hole in the end of the barrel. A whole lot less brass available. A whole lot less knowledge to tap into.
Just what the hell the 450 Marlin is, escapes me.
Jim

Jim, the 444 is essentially a semi-rimmed 44-06
as that was what marlin setout to design.

The 45-70 tosses 300gr bullets at the same speed agressive handloads can toss 265gr bullets from the marlin.
The 45-70 starts with 300gr bullets and can toss 350's and 400's

The 450MArlin is essentially a 45-70+P....
or to put another way it's a "Hot" 45-70 for people that don't handload.

I say go with the 45-70, it has withstood the test of time and it's still here ~135years after
it's original development

And if you want "Hot" without handloading get yourself some Buffalo Bore ammo. (Cabela's carries it)

AllanD

Numbers,numbers,numbers.I don`t think the game gives a hoot about what it was killed with.I choose a 444 for the best of Reasons.Da price was right and I had the MONEY!!!!!!! My goal,why one of each of course. later,OB

I have had the 444, and several 45-70 Marlin's.
I have yet to own a 450, but if I could I would have one of each. Right now I have a non ported stainless guide gun in 45-70. I shoot 40 grains of IMR or H4198 and get good accuracy with 420 grain gc cast bullets.I have tried other powders but get alot of unburnt kernels in the barrel.4227 works really well with the 520 gc cast

I was out shooting my 444 Marlin this afternoon...I bought it new in 1981...

This has always been an accurate rifle, and any animal it ever hit, went down instantly...I shot my biggest whitetail with it back in 1985 in Northern Minnesota... field cleaned at 265 lbs...

I use Hornady XTPs in it exclusively for handloading.. and I now load a lot of faster powders in it, like SR 4759, and SR 4756 which I was shooting both of Today...

With a load of SR 4756 ( 18 grains) and a 200 grain XTP ( and an MV of about 1700 fps).. 4 shots cut a pretty fair sized pine tree ( Big christmas tree sized) in half.....

A 444 is a lot more pleasant rifle to shoot with the MVs around 1700 to 1800 fps...


And when hunting with the 444, it has taken down instantly any animal I have ever shot with it...

Exploded a big beaver with it once....It has also always been the most accurate lever rifle cartridge I have ever owned...

So I'll take the 444.... I also found out with mine today, that 44 Mag loads, shoot just fine in it...two shots from that, cut another tree in half today also! I have always called the 444 my 'Logging Gun'....It has been fun cutting trees in half with it!

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
So I'll take the 444.... I also found out with mine today, that 44 Mag loads, shoot just fine in it...two shots from that, cut another tree in half today also!

This is an unwise practice, as the 44 Remington Magnum has a smaller head (.457 vs. .471) diameter. This is enough difference to cause a ruptured case. May not happen every time, but it could happen. In addition, overtime you are likely to damage the throat of your rifle as the bullet is unsupported for almost an inch of its travel before engaging the lands. Hence, the bullet may not squarely engage the rifling.

quote:

Originally posted by sodakota:
When I first bought one of those it was a 444 Marlin. I prefered it mostly because of the bullet moulds I have in 429 caliber. Then I found out the action was really too short on a Marlin for cast bullets. And also the Marlins at that time were micro-groove. I tried to shoot 300 grain cast and got 12" groups at 100 yards. It shot 260 grain jacketted bullets well though.
If I were to be looking for one today, I would hold out for a 1886 Winchester in a 45-70. I now have moulds in both the 45 and the 44 caliber so that is no longer a plus or minus for either. Perhaps one of the most compelling reasons would be cast bullets. The 86 has a longer action and can feed the cast bullets much better. However, I have always loved the 86 action.

Cast bullets for the 444 microgroove need to be a larger diameter than the mould you used. .432 - .433 would have given you the accuracy you expected.

I'm currently using a 340 grain WFNGC sized at .433 which performs wonderfully in both microgroove and ballard style barrels.

1. the issue with a 444 is the excreable 1:38" twist...say no to bullets heavier than the 260gr Hornady.
2. the issue with a 450 Marlin is the scarcity and expense of brass.
3. the issue with the 45-70 is there are too many bullet moulds, from 290gr to 500gr; and the brass is too cheap
and plentiful.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
1. the issue with a 444 is the excreable 1:38" twist...say no to bullets heavier than the 260gr Hornady.
2. the issue with a 450 Marlin is the scarcity and expense of brass.
3. the issue with the 45-70 is there are too many bullet moulds, from 290gr to 500gr; and the brass is too cheap
and plentiful.

Rich
DRSS

I'd have to disagree with your point number one for several reasons:

First reason, it is a myth that the older 444's won't stabilize heavier bullets as I pointed out in my previous post.

Second reason, they don't sell them in that twist anymore so the point is moot.

As for your point #3 - That is simply the truth.

Anyone who really wants to learn what the 444 CAN do, rather than just hear what gunrag writers THINK it can do, should read the articles on the Beartooth bullets site by Marshall Stanton.

There is a lot of widely believed but inaccurate "information" regarding the 444, and he does an excellent job of demonstrating what both types of 444 barrels are actually capable of, with bullets up to 405 grains.

i started viht 45-70 and no 444marlin outfitter
nad i casts my bullit 0.432 350grs hardcast

Jackfish,He is shooting 44 mag loads in 444 brass!!!!!It works just fine. OB

Cariboo_Kid,

didn't see any loads for a 500gr bullet around 1800fps, or a 405gr at 2000fps, or a 350gr at 2200fps...the 444 is a great cartridge, it just is twist limited to lighter (read shorter) bullets in the marlins I have owned/shot. It's why there isn't real hammer factory load, like a 400gr at 2000fps or so. Put a 1:24" twist on it and be very happy. Bill Falin, former ballistician at Accurate Arms who did their first two reloading manuals had a CSharps M1875 with a 1:20" (IIRC) twist and was shooting some heavy bullets in it and doing rather well at BPCRS. Marlin just saw it as a close(r) range rifle and did the twist for the 260gr Hornady. I had one in a Contender, and then a Competitor single shot pistol, with a 1:24" twist. Great big game single shots.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Cariboo_Kid,

didn't see any loads for a 500gr bullet around 1800fps, or a 405gr at 2000fps, or a 350gr at 2200fps...the 444 is a great cartridge, it just is twist limited to lighter (read shorter) bullets in the marlins I have owned/shot. It's why there isn't real hammer factory load, like a 400gr at 2000fps or so. Put a 1:24" twist on it and be very happy. Bill Falin, former ballistician at Accurate Arms who did their first two reloading manuals had a CSharps M1875 with a 1:20" (IIRC) twist and was shooting some heavy bullets in it and doing rather well at BPCRS. Marlin just saw it as a close(r) range rifle and did the twist for the 260gr Hornady. I had one in a Contender, and then a Competitor single shot pistol, with a 1:24" twist. Great big game single shots.

Rich
DRSS

I don't see those loads either, and I didn't claim there were any. The loads for the 405 in the marlin 444 are about 1800 fps, but due to the smaller bore size they likely have a similar BC to a heavier bullet such as the 500 grain in the 45/70. I would never argue that the 45/70 can shoot the heaviest bullets at the highest speed out of these three calibers with good handloads, but I WILL disagree with the statement that "1. the issue with a 444 is the excreable 1:38" twist...say no to bullets heavier than the 260gr Hornady."

The problems people used to have with higher weight cast bullets was due to the lack of knowledge that the 444Marlin microgroove barrels need cast bullets to be a larger diameter than was used in 44 mag pistols. The 444 with the old barrel twist is good up to 355 grains, possibly a little higher. The new twist has no trouble with the 405's.

Below are links to the series of articles I was suggesting as a good read for a better understanding of the real world shooting abilities of the 444. The heavy loads are listed in part 3, but it is important to read the others as well to understand how much misinformation is out there about this cartridge.

Remember as well that he does no tweaking on these loads to find optimum powder weights or seating depths for the individual rifles, he just tries a group at 2 grain intervals. It's likely many of these loads could be improved on further. With the 405's he only tries a single powder weight and finds a group of 2.284" at 100 yards with the rifle in the new twist. It likely wouldn't take much tweaking to get that under your 2" goal. Velocities of course would be higher in the non ported 22" or 24" barrels that Marlin currently sells this caliber in, rather than the 18.5" ported barrel he used for the tests.

Part I
Part II
Part III

A fellow used the same 340WFN I'm loading on a black bear, it passed through both shoulders and a small tree behind it. The 444 is capable of taking down anything I will meet in Canada, and taking it down hard. Being on a bison ranch I don't make that statement lightly. And it's a heck of a lot of fun to shoot too.

what is the current twist rate? Didn't say it was hopeless, just runs a very distant second to the 45-70 as far as utility and power. The Marlin or 1886 Winchester can launch 500gr bullets at 1800+fps and sub-2moa easily. The 444, whatever twist rate you have cannot handle those heavy bullets... and has far less case capacity. The question was choice, and the 45-70 is the best of the listed group. I do not believe that there is ANY better choice if the shots stay under 200yds. I took a vote and the bison agree with me.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
what is the current twist rate? Didn't say it was hopeless, just runs a very distant second to the 45-70 as far as utility and power. The Marlin or 1886 Winchester can launch 500gr bullets at 1800+fps and sub-2moa easily. The 444, whatever twist rate you have cannot handle those heavy bullets... and has far less case capacity. The question was choice, and the 45-70 is the best of the listed group. I do not believe that there is ANY better choice if the shots stay under 200yds. I took a vote and the bison agree with me.

Rich
DRSS

The recent barrels all have ballard rifling and a 1:20 twist.

The great thing is, no matter which of the 3 calibers a person chooses, he can't go wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
Jackfish,He is shooting 44 mag loads in 444 brass!!!!!It works just fine. OB

Sorry, it wasn't completely clear that he was shooting the 444 Marlin with 44 Rem Mag load data. Even that might cause some problems as those loads will not acheive anywhere near the pressure they will achieve in 44 Rem Mag brass. Potential squibs?

I have to say it is refreshing to see somebody such an all-out partisan of the 444. What he says does make sense. If I weren't a deadnuts 45-70 fan I'd have to take a look. Well researched and documented experience and data to back his position.
Go! Cariboo_Kid

regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Potential squibs?

I think that as long as you stay away from H110/Win296 it will be ok. Alliant lists some fairly light loads with 2400 and i would suspect they could be reduced to 44mag velocity safely

If a man reloads his own shells, you can do the same job equally well with any of the tree you mentioned. Honestly I could toss a coin and be happy regardless of the out come.

Get an 1886 Winchester if you can, in 45-70. I love mine.
I doub't you'll get a decent one for $500 though.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
Jackfish,He is shooting 44 mag loads in 444 brass!!!!!It works just fine. OB

Sorry, it wasn't completely clear that he was shooting the 444 Marlin with 44 Rem Mag load data. Even that might cause some problems as those loads will not acheive anywhere near the pressure they will achieve in 44 Rem Mag brass. Potential squibs?

Just seeing this... however, loads down to 800 fps in this rifle, with XTP Hornady's has never created a problem... no stuck bullets in the bore...

You can do a lot with the 45/70.. and more info is published on that....

But the 444 can be just as flexible, by using all the data that is available on the 44 Rem Mag... and in a rifle, it works exactly like the 44 Rem Mag data says it should...

and is pretty low recoiling to boot, eh? ( for our Canuck buddies, I translated it into Canuck so they could understand it...

LOL - Thanks bud, I was totally lost before the translation!

I have a .45-70 Stainless guide gun and a .450 MXLR. They are both great guns.

The .450 is a higher power level than standard .45-70 ammo. If you reload, the .45-70 can achieve .450 power levels. It is a matter of choice.

We picked a 450 Marlin… and never looked back. Yes you can load 45/70 to similar velocities… but the ones you buy in most stores are at black powder pressures…

And you can find ammo even in Far East Texas… not just in bug cities. Hand loading is simple and it is easy to achieve the same vels as the Hornady Ammo. It is a very accurate round in both mine and my Sons rifles… I just don’t get people who don’t get this round.

"... I can't feel any recoil from the 44 mag. The 444 and 300 grain 45/70 give light recoil - about 300 magnum level. The 45/70 405@2000fps and the 50 alaskan give about .338 WM recoil. Certainly not uncomfortable for me to shoot 200 rounds from in an afternoon."


WOW

I thought 'they' quit making the 45-70 after the 450 was produced.....

one point in favor of the 450 marlin, is that it can be had in a BLR, which has a number of advantages. it can handle more pressure than a marlin or winchester for that matter, it is clip fed and can be therefore loaded with any pointed .458 bullet out there, and it has a shorter lever throw along with great strength in a number of areas of brass extraction. great gun and a slightly higher cost of brass suddenly makes the 450 marlin much much more desireable if you like the blr.

eclipsing the 4000fpe in a blr is easy.

I have a 444 with the new 1in20 twist and I like it very much. It has a set of williams fire sights and is quick on target but I still agree, it all a matter of choice.