Anybody doing any 22LR Sorting using the Rim Thickness or Total Cartridge Weight Methods?

If so, how much Accuracy improvement did you see?

I had more time on my hands than money for good ammo so I tried sorting by weight,rim thicknes and then sorting some for both rim thickness and weight.....mainly bulk WW Dynapoints.....the flyers seemed to be less common and groups more round......BUT then I shot some of the discards just for fun and got a group equal to the good ones of the double sorted batch????!...this was in both a couple of bolt guns...one with a match chamber; and a tight headspace 10-22 custom HB....sorting won't make 2.50$ ammo shooot like the 10-15$ stuff but some? flyers are eliminated it seems in my limited experiments....hth..good luck and good shooting!!

Great report - Thanks. I have a buddy trying it out in Califoney and so far he is just into the Weight Sorting stage, hasn't shot it yet.

He is trying to achieve groups in the 3s at 50yds with a Marlin 980 that he has done some work on. I have a Marlin 880 that would do 6s at 50yds with a 10x scope. Just mounted a 6-24x on it and hope to see if that tightens it a bit more.

Were you using a high power scope?

I'll sell you my gauge! The whole point of this was to try to get cheaper ammo to shoot as well as more expensive ammo. I did not get worthwhile results and my understanding is that others did not either. I thought that the idea died!
Peter.

I think that the rim thickness sort and then sorting the different groups (piles) by weight works on lower grade ammo, but it is time consuming and a PITA. I have done this with cheap Mexican 22 LR ammo, but I decided that I'd really rather spend a little more $$ for middle-grade RWS or Eley and spend the time doing something more interesting.

Jeff

Hey Peter and Jeff, Thanks for the additional excellent input.

Appreciate the offer on the Rim Thickness Gauge, but I'll pass. I will mention it to my Califoney buddy to see if he is interested though.

I got to go shoot for a very short time yesterday and 6 types of Un-Sorted 22LRs. I was a bit surprised at how well some did and how bad some did. Wanted to blame a bit of it on the wind and then an excellent group would appear with what seemed to be the same amount of wind.

Just ordered an electronic scale to speed up the Weight Sorting process.

If you are thinking some groups were surprisingly good, while others not, and you can sort out the good ones I think you will be disappointed. What you are seeing is normal with ammo which is inconsistent. Some certain percentage of the time from simple random variation you can expect to get quite good groups. Chances are the good groups were no better ammo than the rest. The good groups just happened through explainable chance.

I've done quite a bit of .22 testing in the past. I think you would be better off testing at 25 yds. as conditions make a huge difference in .22 groups. I had mixed results when sorting .22 ammo. I think in an Olympic class rifle it might make a small difference, but in target rifles only costing $1,000. or $1,200. or so it wouldn't be noticeable.If your rifle is shooting groups which average close to 1/2" at 50 yds. that is excellent and probably about all you're going to get out of it. Just for fun you could buy a box of eley 10x and shoot it at 25 yds. That should tell you what level of accuracy your rifle is capable of. PS. I have a rim gauge I would sell also, you and your buddy could both have one.

Hey Esldude, I do understand Random Group Dispersion and agree with you. Just getting started re-picking the best ammo.

What got this all started was my Califoney buddy asked what I was using and I could not find my old Targets where I'd found the Best ammo before. Then we kept talking about it, he got a new rifle that wasn't shooting as well as he hoped and we got into this deeper.
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Hey Swampshooter, That buddy of mine has one of those Custom Made $$$HIGH$$$ 22LRs that he shoots "Free Recoil" by pinching the Trigger and Trigger Guard. But that isn't the rifle he has been working on. We both have Marlin Bolt Actions which are not close to the $1000 level.

Just seeing how well they can actually shoot with some minor mods and the right ammo.

By the way, my buddy told me he has some kind of Stoney Point Thingy which is allowing him to measure/compare the Rim Thickness. Appreciate the offer on the Rim Thickness Checker, but I'll pass.

Thanks to you both for the input.

As I understand it, BR50 went away precisely because the ammo was not "up to snuff".
Peter.

I shot BR-50 postal matches in the late 80's. The availability and cost of good ammo was definitely a major problem. The main reason i enjoy shooting a .22 is that i can shoot all afternoon for $10.00 and don't have to spend the whole week cleaning my gun and reloading ammo. I quite shooting BR-50 because of the cost of good ammo. At the time a box of wildcats was .50 cents and eley 10x was $10.00 per 50. I spent more than a full days pay shooting 10x on numerous occasions.

I hear ya, swampshooter. I feel similarly. Got into 22's as a cheap way to practice and improve my marksmanship. Not to mention it being plain fun. Eventually got some moderately expensive rifles. That doesn't bother me much as they last a lifetime or more when so well made, and continue to have value. But the expensive ammo is something I rarely shoot. One of the big attractions to rimfire is it being so inexpensive. If you get ammo that cost like centerfire, why not just shoot centerfire?

So I end up shooting quite good rifles very carefully as accurately as pretty cheap ammo will allow. It isn't as good as Eley of course. Sure is a lot of fun for the money though.

Ordered an MTM DS-1250 Mini Digital Reloading Scale to do some Weight Sorting with. Got it yesterday from Graf’s for $29.99. When it arrived, the Powder pan was missing, so I called MTM in Dayton, OH and they are sending me one.

It comes inside a real nice MTM smoke-color case along with a Calibration Weight, the Powder Pan and the two batteries needed to run it. Any measurement device must be able to be Calibrated using a Known Source (especially electronic devices), or the data from it is totally worthless.

Electronic Scales can be frustrating to use if you are set up where the air conditioner can blow on it or if other electronics are nearby that emit EMI or RFI. Some of the less expensive ones also have small quirks, where they will occasionally pull a Clinton on you(Lie to you), can be position sensitive on the platen and might skip a particular xx.0-9 reading when measuring in Grains.

I took a 165gr Bullet and weighed it 5-times in 5-spots on the platen. Very impressed that this very inexpensive scale was that accurate.


MTM DS-1250

12 O’clock
5-165gr
No Errors

3 O'clock
4-165gr
1- 0.1gr High Error

6 O'clock
5-165gr
No Errors

9 O'clock
4-165gr
1- 0.2gr Low Error

Center
5-165gr
No Errors

If you have any of the old CCI Plastic Ammo Boxes, hang on to them. The Labels come off easily. Then you can re-fill them with the Weight Sorted 22LRs and Label the Weights along the side of the box.

While your at it, how about sorting by rim thickness and crono each shot. That should keep you off the streets for a bit.

Hey JAL, My buddy in Califoney is doing the Rim Thickness Testing. He even made a special "Thingy" to use with his Stoney Point Thingy to do the measuring with. He had mentioned he always chronographs each shot he fires, but I'll guess he only does that with Centerfires.

Most of this ammo is really old though and may not have any bearing at all on what is made by the same manufacturers.
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Notice the gaps at different spots such as 51.3, 51.6 and 51.8gr. I'd guess that is because the Scale is simply skipping past a reading. It happens in many cheap scales and does not concern me for Weight Sorting.

CCI CB Long
40.4gr - 1
40.6gr - 9
40.7gr - 27
40.9gr - 10
41.0gr - 3

CCI Green Tag Competition
50.8gr - 1
50.9gr - 14
51.1gr - 25
51.2gr - 20

CCI Mini Group Standard Velocity
50.7gr - 1
50.9gr - 9
51.1gr - 15
51.2gr - 23
51.4gr - 2

CCI Mini Mag High Velocity
51.4gr - 4
51.5gr - 6
51.7gr - 21
51.9gr - 19

CCI Short HP
35.5gr - 10
35.6gr - 27
35.8gr - 28

CCI Small Game Bullet - This has a Flat Tip and is known where I Hunt as The Hammer.
51.9gr - 66
52.0gr - 14

CCI Standard Velocity
50.9gr - 1
51.1gr - 15
51.2gr - 38
51.4gr - 3
51.5gr - 2

CCI Stingers
42.7gr - 1
42.9gr - 4
43.1gr - 6
43.2gr - 13
43.4gr - 1
43.5gr - 1

Eley Club - All the Eley ammo had a soft sticky wax coating. It would hold pocket lint.
51.1gr - 1
51.5gr - 1
52.0gr - 4
52.2gr - 14
52.3gr - 11
52.5gr - 1

Eley Standard
51.5gr - 3
51.7gr - 2
51.9gr - 6
52.0gr - 10
52.2gr - 7
52.3gr - 6
52.5gr - 1

Eley Tenex
51.1gr - 1
51.2gr - 9
51.4gr - 21
51.5gr - 4

Fed Champion - This is "new 2008 ammo".
51.1gr - 2
51.2gr - 27
51.4gr - 34
51.5gr - 28
51.7gr - 9

Fed Gold Medal - This has been accurate for me. Seems like a wide spread though.
50.9gr - 1
51.1gr - 6
51.2gr - 20
51.4gr - 14
51.5gr - 10
51.7gr - 1
51.9gr - 1
52.0gr - 1

Fed Gold Medal Match – These have a Waxy Coating similar to Eley. No Dimple in Case Head.
52.8gr – 4
52.9gr – 21
53.1gr – 25

Fed Gold Medal Ultra Match – These have a Waxy Coating similar to Eley. No Dimple in Case Head.
52.8gr – 10
52.9gr – 31
53.1gr – 9

Fed Lightning
51.5gr - 1
51.7gr - 10
51.9gr - 29
52.0gr - 10

Fed Power Flight
49.8gr - 5
50.0gr - 11
50.2gr - 8
50.3gr - 1

Rem Golden Bullets (HPs)
49.4gr - 6
49.5gr - 15
49.7gr - 5
49.8gr - 9
50.0gr - 15
50.2gr - 6
50.3gr - 11
50.5gr - 1
50.8gr - 3
50.9gr - 3
51.1gr - 1

Rem Subsonic HP - This has been fairly accurate for me. Now I don't see how it was.
48.5gr - 3
48.6gr - 1
48.8gr - 2
48.9gr - 2
49.1gr - 3
49.2gr - 1
49.5gr - 5
49.8gr - 1
50.0gr - 2

Rem Target - This is "new 2008 ammo".
50.6gr - 1
50.8gr - 5
50.9gr - 13
51.1gr - 18
51.2gr - 21
51.4gr - 24
51.5gr - 9
51.7gr - 6
51.9gr - 3
52.0gr - 1

Rem Thunderbolts - Weight Sorting cut the Groups in half.
49.5gr - 5
49.7gr - 3
49.8gr - 3
50.0gr - 6
50.2gr - 3
50.3gr - 10
50.5gr - 6
50.6gr - 13
50.8gr - 11
50.9gr - 14
51.1gr - 9
51.2gr - 9
51.4gr - 7
51.5gr - 3
51.9gr - 2
52.0gr - 2
52.2gr - 2
52.3gr - 2

Win Mark IV
50.5gr - 1
50.6gr - 1
50.8gr - 1
50.9gr - 1
51.1gr - 9
51.2gr - 2

Win Subsonic
50.8gr - 3
50.9gr - 9
51.1gr - 4
51.2gr - 5
51.4gr - 2

Win Super X
51.4gr - 3
51.5gr - 4
51.7gr - 13
51.9gr - 31
52.0gr - 21
52.5gr - 10
53.3gr - 1

Win T-22
50.8gr - 2
50.9gr - 5
51.1gr - 9
51.2gr - 5
51.4gr - 3
51.5gr - 1

Win Wildcats
51.2gr - 6
51.4gr - 14
51.5gr - 26
51.7gr - 29
51.9gr - 19
52.0gr - 1

I'm really surprised at how consistent the CCI ammo has been. Also surprised at how wide the variance is in the Remington and Federal Gold Medal.

All the Eley, Federal, Winchester and CCI ammo is at least 25 years old. I mention that because the consistency(or variance as you see it) might or might not be found in today's production of any manufacturer listed. The Remington Golden Bullets and the Remington Subsonic are about 10 years old. And the Fed Champion and Rem Target are "new 2008" ammo.

Now I just need to find some time to go shoot and see if there is any correlation with the Weight Variances and Accuracy - in my rifle.

I resorted the above data so it is easier for anyone interested to follow, or see if their ammo is listed.

Best of luck to you all.

What I am doing is a duplication of others in sorting 22RF LR ammo by weight. I,ve been using the MTM DS 1250 scale as is HC.

Zapper, From 52.6gr to 53.7grain in 5 groups

Remington HP , 50.8grauns to 52.3 grains. 5 groups.

Blazer, (51.5 grains, 114), (51.7grains, 271), (51.9grains, 136),(51.2 grains, 1), (51.4 grains, 2), 53.1grains,1).Never wuth the MTM scale did 51.3, 51.6, or 51.8 display.

Win Wildcat.(51.7grains,3), (51.9grains, 54), (52.0 grains,54),(52.2grains,57), (52.3 grains,24), (52.5grains,11). Not once in the sorting did the numbers 51.8, 52.1,or 52.4, appear on the scale.

The weight of a number of bullets were checked on this scale and in all it seemed to measure rather close to the appropriate weight.

The MTM will be crossed checked further with the ever infallible Redding balance.

Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..

Their web site says it is accurate to 0.2gr. And your 0.1gr skipping is the same as mine. Might not be the best for Reloading, but I do like it for Weight-Sorting.

You guys using a digital or beam scale? I might try this myself but my digital is a gram scale.

Hey Ted, Bartsche and I are both using the MTM DS-1250 Mini Digital Reloading Scale. Got it from Graf's for $29.99.

It is only Guaranteed Accurate to 0.2gr, which means it will occasionally "skip over" a 0.1gr reading and read above it or below it.

There are much more Precise Scales available, which would probably be better for actual Reloading. But, for the $30, it is doing the Weight-Sorting close enough for me. I will also use it when weight-sorting Cases.

It is not nearly as sensitive to air currents as the Pact and RCBS electronic scales I've used. You can move your hand over it and the scale does not go into the Seeking Mode.
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So far, it appears the Weight-Sorting helps the grouping with "some" ammo, but not with others. Haven't shot enough cumulative shots of individual types to offer any recommendations though.

Uniform bullet diameter makes smaller groups.

I sorted 3000 Wolf Match Target 22 rounds (all the same lot) by weight and rim thickness and it now is VERY close to the high end Eley and Lapua ammo for accuracy.
I use a Denver Instruments APX 153 scale and a custom made rim thickness gage to do the sorting.
I did a test to see the effect of rim thickness sorting and weight sorting.
The bottom line was, weight sorting makes a difference, but sorting by rim thickness didn't seeem to make much, if any difference in shooting at 50 yards. If there was a difference, it was burried down in the noise level of my shooting.
Another thing I learned is that sorting the cheap crap 22 ammo yields sorted cheap crap that doesn't shoot any better sorted than it does unsorted.
Also, there is no need sorting the high end Lapua and Eley; it's sorted when you get it.
It's the mid priced ammo that does yield better accuracy, as an example the Wolf Match Target ammo where a decided difference was made in accuracy through sorting. I sort RWS R-100 as it shoots extremely well in several 22 rifles I have, and sorting it makes a difference. Wolf Match Target shoots best in more 22 rifles I have than any other ammo, save the two top dogs, Eley and lapua. But, for three rifles, RWS R-100 rules!!!

Don

Hey Don, Somewhere up in the thread I mentioned the Eley having a Sticky Wax coating which would pick up Lint in a person's pocket.

My Califoney buddy noticed the Lapua also has a Sticky Wax coating. Then he noticed that if he shot about 10 Laupas to "Season the Bore", the other ammo he was trying would shoot better for 5-6 shots and then begin opening back to their normal group size.

I tried that with the Eley and found the same thing.

Does the Wolf ammo have a Sticky Wax coating or a harder coating?

Don, where did you get your Wolf Match Target ammo? Any good deals out there?
Peter.

quote:

Does the Wolf ammo have a Sticky Wax coating or a harder coating?

Yes, and many guys object to the coating on the Wolf MT ammo. It's kind of greasy like you mentioned about Eley and Lapua. It picks up everything except money and women...

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Don, where did you get your Wolf Match Target ammo? Any good deals out there?
Peter.

I bought a case of 5000 rounds of the Wolf MT from a private individual, and I'm still feeding off of that.
But, IIRC, Champions Choice and Champion Shooters Supply has it, as well as J&G Sales in Arizona. One thing I'll be up front about is different lots of the Wolf MT have different accuracy associated with them. I have some small lots of the Wolf MT ammo from different sources that are different lots than the case of 5000 I bought. Shooting the different lots in the same rifle has one lot not shoot at all, where another lots shoots perfectly.
The point here is you probably should buy some small quantities of different lots to test ( a box or two of each lot#), then go back and stock up on the lot that shoots well. This process is exactly what the 22 Rimfire benchrest shooters do when they run out of a particular lot of ammo that shot well. Yes, it's a never ending dilemma for guys on the benchrest circuit.
But, now that I'm not on the cuircut, I can say that I have some lots for hunting that are stellar in accuracy.

Don

Update above list to include Fed Gold Medal Match and Fed Gold Medal Ultra Match.

We shoot small bore silhouette a lot. Lots have gone through the sorting by weight & rim thickness with marginal effect at the target. Good ammo stayed good and lousy ammo did not get much better. We all typically burn alot of ammo in practice and matches. On match day one can easily shoot 200 rounds (80 (2 @ 40) match (2 sets of 40), 20 assuring zreos, 50 warm-up, 50 between matches). That alone is a lot of sorting/weighing for one match day. I guess one could look at it for only the 80 rounds of actual match ammo.

Most at AA & higher are shooting 500-750/week.

We strive for 3/4"-1" @ 100m in every single group (accuracy upon demand), but often accept 1.25". Lot numbers are the most defining difference that we've found. Most better Eley, Laupa, SK, Fiocchi, RWS will do this. My guns will do 1'-1.25" w/711B (can't afford the "good" stuff).

Any data on group size before/after. Seems one would have to shoot 5+ 5 shoot groups of each and all from same lot number) to validate date.

Pete A.

Hey Pete, I finally got to the nearest "Dick's Sporting Goods" store and found their 22Rimfire shelves nearly bare. They had some CCI MiniMag and plenty of the 17HMR. Looks like the folks around here wiped them out too.

Understand what you are saying about the Weight Sorting and Rim Thickness. Something to try during BORED periods. Also agree it would be a real pain if a person was shooting 500+ rounds a week.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete A.:
We shoot small bore silhouette a lot. Lots have gone through the sorting by weight & rim thickness with marginal effect at the target. Good ammo stayed good and lousy ammo did not get much better. We all typically burn alot of ammo in practice and matches. On match day one can easily shoot 200 rounds (80 (2 @ 40) match (2 sets of 40), 20 assuring zreos, 50 warm-up, 50 between matches). That alone is a lot of sorting/weighing for one match day. I guess one could look at it for only the 80 rounds of actual match ammo.

Most at AA & higher are shooting 500-750/week.

We strive for 3/4"-1" @ 100m in every single group (accuracy upon demand), but often accept 1.25". Lot numbers are the most defining difference that we've found. Most better Eley, Laupa, SK, Fiocchi, RWS will do this. My guns will do 1'-1.25" w/711B (can't afford the "good" stuff).

Any data on group size before/after. Seems one would have to shoot 5+ 5 shoot groups of each and all from same lot number) to validate date.

Pete A.

Pete,

Good point about cheap stuff sorting produces cheap stuff that doesn't shoot any better with sorting. I sorted several different brands of the cheap stuff, with zero improvement. And, the expensive stuff doesn't need sorting.
The only ammo that did show improvemnent was/is Wolf Match Target.