The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Shooting Rim Fire Rifles & Pistols Next Test - Barrel Tuner! Targets Have Been Added.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I have read a bit on barrel tuners, tried some and I cannot remember my results!!?? So, I have decided to run another test, and keep track of the results. We made a tuner and fitted it to the BRNO rifle I have re-barreled with the Lilja match barrel. I have marked it every 5mm on its diameter. I have picked 5 types of ammo. Eley Tenex Eley Sport Eley Match RWS Match Rifle SK Long Range Match. Plan is to shoot 5, 10-shot groups of each type of ammo. Then turn the tuner 10mm out and continue. I was told it requires very little change, hence the small amount of turn. Shooting is off the bench. I have already shot the first groups of the Eley Tenex, and SK. Shot very well at 50 yards. Will keep you posted on my results. | ||
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Watching. The really serious. 22 shooters at my old range wouldn't think of chasing ultimate accuracy without a tuner. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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I confess that I have no idea what a barrel tuner is or looks like. Is it purely for target rifles? Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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As usual here, things sometimes develop legs and walk away! I confined the adapter we made to fit the action into the Young rest. Had to make another one. Already installed and sighted. Here is the procedure. I have selected various ammo which I have of the same lot number, in large enough quantities to do this test, as I am assuming it will require a lot. I have installed the tuner, tightened it. This means the tuner is part of the barrel, and I will unscrew it in about 10mm out for each run. This is supposed to alter the barrel vibrations, and we are supposed to get different accuracy! No idea how it is going to work out, so we are all in the dark. I will fire 10 shots of each type of ammo, before starting the test. This to make sure the barrel is lined with the same lube. 5, 10-shot groups will be fired of each type of ammo at the same setting. The tuner will be turned as I mentioned above by 10mm, and everything repeated. Got some shooters here almost salivating for the results!  | |||
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One more watching eagerly! | |||
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Having had the concept of a tuner explained to me (thank you, Saeed), my curiosity has been piqued. But so has my natural skepticism. I have not seen properly applied muzzle brakes or flash hiders or suppressors affect accuracy in any way, on any number of rifles. But I don't measure my groups to the thousandth of an inch. Empirical research is always interesting, but one seldom sees it done the right way. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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In all my 22 rimfire shooting, no matter what one does. Something always creeps in. I think because there are elements one cannot control. Barrels, actions, ammo. In center fire, one can almost be certain it is one element or another that is the weakest link. I have a bench rifle that shoots better than I can ever do. I have shot groups with it that are basically impossible to measure. Not so with rim fire. In this test, I have a rifle that I know basically shoots very well, by 22 rimfire standards. Talking to a few friends who are very good shots, and shoot 22 rim fire regularly, the discussion was whether to make the tuner in brass, steel or aluminium. I have opted for aluminium. Commercially made tuners on the market are in aluminium. Only point we thought of was the suggestions that the ammo lube might be a factor. That is why I am shooting 10 shots of each type of ammo to lube the barrel before proceeding with the test. Anyone with any suggestions please do not hesitate to tell me. | |||
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None of my muzzle devices is made of aluminum. All are steel or titanium, or combinations of titanium and steel, including super alloys. Inconel, a super alloy, is used in some of the suppressors. Titanium and Inconel are used by the best makers of suppressors, for their light weight and superior corrosion resistance. My suggestion, for purposes of economy, would be to use steel, which would be in keeping with the metal of the barrel itself. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Your devices are not tuners. All commercial tuners I have seen were aluminum. | |||
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But should they be? Why don't you try both steel and aluminum and see if it makes any difference?  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike, The idea of a tuner is to alter the vibrations of the barrel, it is immaterial what it is made of. Main object is to move the null point by altering the weight at the muzzle. I have no idea how it works, have not seen anything convincing yet from reading about it. A very close friend who is involved in the bench rest community told me very small changes are needed to see any differences. So we have made one out of aluminium, and I have already started the test. I suspect this going to be a long one. So I think once I have had one full turn, I will post my results, and carry on. Just to keep you all on your toes!  | |||
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If your rifle has a heavy barrel it may be too stiff to be affected by an aluminium tuner, in which case steel will be the only answer. Finding the sweet spot is likely to be a long and tedious task, but you have proved you're capable. | |||
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Isn't the Browning BOSS a tuner? | |||
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Yes it was. And I am not sure how successful it has been. I think there is a major difference between center fire and rim fire. Center fire one does have several options of improving the accuracy of his rifle. Not so much on rim fire. I still believe a good barrel, and match ammo, shoot very well. And I still believe the weakest link is the ammo. Having shot hundreds of thousands of rounds, I have always noticed even the very best, and most expensive, ammo, have the odd round that throws all the results haywire! | |||
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An engineer explained to me years ago that the BOSS (or any other "tuner") is just an adjustable dampener. When fired, a barrel vibrates in a sine wave. Ideally, the bullet would exit the barrel at the mid-point of the wave (node). That point being primarily governed by the barrel length and contour. Moreover, the bullet weight and powder charge affect the sine wave. Thats why reloaders can find their barrel's "sweet spot" by careful load development. IOW's they adjust the node to the muzzle. The non-reloader has few options. The first is to try different factory loads to find which one shoots best in a given rifle. The second is to alter the nodes. To my knowledge, there is no reliable/measurable way to determine exactly where the nodes are in a barrel for particular factory loads. If there were, you would have to cut your barrel length to a specific load. This option is not practical. That leaves one option - adjustable dampening. By attaching a mass to the barrel that can be securely moved from one location to another can be used to alter node location for specific loads. This is called tuning. So, in theory at least, it should work. Hi-power rifles require a heavier mass vs rimfires. Thats probably why aluminum works OK for .22's. My technique in using them has been to first find a brand and bullet weight your rifle "likes" with the tuner set to "0". Then, shoot groups moving the tuner out then in in hopes of finding a sweet spot. This sounds like what Saeed is proposing. Saeed, to reduce the chance for flyers, inspect all of your ammo and eliminate ones with wobbly bullets. Also, you can roll the bullets on a pane of glass to identify ones that have poor concentricity. | |||
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I agree with everything you said. My intention is to check both the tuner and ammo. Trying to select any round which might not look normal adds another angle to it, which I don’t want to get into. I have picked 5 types of ammo, a case of each. So all tests will be of the exact same lot. Been a bit busy with other things, so no shooting past few days. Almost getting withdrawn symptoms! | |||
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ok I read this many years ago reguarding sine wave location. Clamp the action in the vise, hang wire cloth hangers on the barrel and tap the barrel with a rubber hammer. The hangers will bunch up at the bottom of the wave. | |||
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That is the theory. Point is does it actually work in shooting?? | |||
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Saeed, it seems you have good control of the variables. The only one that concerns me (and I freely admit that I don't necessarily know what the hell I am talking about!) is whether the weight of the tuner is enough to make any material difference. Must be so, since you say that aluminum tuners are in use on rimfires as a matter of course. I had forgotten about the Boss system. It was a commercial failure. I have seen Browning rifles for sale with the inducement that the Boss device had been cut off! This should be interesting. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike, I understand very little change makes a lot of difference!! I was told this by someone shooting 22 matches. | |||
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They are apparently quite large compared to steel. That would give them the needed mass. https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id...D4&pid=Api&P=0&h=180
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I am very interested. Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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When is the test. About 10 years ago I was visiting Ed Shilen on a Saturday. I was helping him with his Hewland Transmission on his old Formula Ford. He had his rimfire BR rifle sitting on his 1 piece rest. I asked about the tuner. He handed me a brass rod and told me to putt on his headphones with a microphone . He told me to tap on the barrel and move the tuner until it had a dull thud sound. He said you would then be within a few clicks of being in tune. About 2 or 3 yrs ago I called Jon Hammond, the West Virginia Univ. rifle coach about a barreled action. His assistant coach had a KK300 Walther that he sold me at a very decent price. I put a BR stock on it and a home made tuner. It is a very accurate BR rifle. Back to the tuners, they work. | |||
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I am very sorry. This test has taken a back seat to other tests. Everyone was getting ready for hunting, and wanted work done on their rifles. Then we we went hunting. Then had a whole bunch of new new rifles to work on. Then my workshop many air rifles. Ranging from 58 caliber to 17 Olympic Match! Had friends stay with us from the US and Zimbabwe. They really enjoyed shooting these. Unmeasurable one hole groups of 10 shots at 10 meters. The BRNO rifle meant for this test is in the machine rest, and I hope to get to it before long. | |||
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Still looking forward to the test, Saeed. Butch, that's pretty cool about tapping the barrel with a brass rod to find the node. Ought to save a lot of ammunition. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Well, I have installed the custom BRNO 452 barreled action in the Young machine rest. I barre this rifle myself, with a Dan Lilja match barrel using a match reamer. Shot extremely well in previous tests. I managed to shoot a few types of ammo groups without a tuner to use as a yardstick. Then a bunch of kids arrived to shoot. They normally like to shoot several rifles like 22 rim fire and small center fire. Today I managed to persuade them to shoot 22 pistols and revolvers. That worked well, as they loved shooting the pistols, and I did not have to move the Young machine rest off the shooting table. My intention is to shoot 10 shot groups of various ammo without the tuner. The tuner we made here. It has at least 10 full turns. I will shoot each ammo 10 times - one on each turn. This might give me an idea where the sweet spot is. If this turns out to be true, that it shows accuracy improvement with different ammo, I will shoot more with partial turns. | |||
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Excellent protocol, Saeed, which should prove very useful. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Point of impact change by just installing the tuner was about 2 inches. Point of impact change by one full turn is over an inch. This is an indication that the weight of the tuner is plenty enough to show any change. I have shot all the different ammo I intend to test without the tuner. I have installed it. Zero with the tuner is it is turned fully in. 1 is the tuner turned one full turn out - ie moving the center of gravity forward. Out of the ammo I shot so far, I picked 5 types - my target has 5 bullseyes. 1. ELEY Match 2. Eley Tenex 3. Eley Edge 4. Eley Contact 5. Eley Rabbit. This should give me an indication of how it is going. I will keep you updated as the progress goes on. Didn’t have the chance to shoot this afternoon as more kids came over! Hopefully tomorrow I might get a chance to shoot a few groups. Off to the desert early in the morning, to get there before sun up. Meeting a few friends for our usual breakfast and flying in a paramotor, and rides on our Magic Carpet. We got a set of wheels used to launch small canoes, and tied them onto a carpet . The kids absolutely love riding it! In fact, I get calls to makes sure it is brought out. | |||
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No tuner needed on the flying sand carpet. Just good masks and goggles!  Looking forward to the results. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Here are preliminary results. First group is no tuner. Second is with tuner fully turned in Then each consecutive group is with the tuner turned one full turn out. Eley Match 0.617 0.434 0.550 0.405 0.298 0.636 Ely Tenex 0.525 0.302 0.496 0.404 0.386 0.181 Eley Edge 0.424 0.345 0.257 0.356 0.282 0.364 Eley Contact 0.410 0.482 0.366 0.444 0.509 0.509 Ely Rabbit 0.676 0.938 0.494 0.507 0.534 0.826 | |||
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Very interesting. Limited data, but so far, to summarize: Eley Match – Best – 0.298 – with tuner 3 turns out Ave. – 0.490 Eley Tenex – Best – 0.181 – with tuner 4 turns out Ave. – 0.382 Eley Edge – Best – 0.257 – with tuner 1 turn out Ave. – 0.338 Eley Contact – Best – 0.366 – with tuner 1 turn out Ave. – 0.453 Eley Rabbit – Best – 0.494 – with tuner 1 turn out Ave. – 0.663 All ammunition shot better with the tuner than without. Eley Tenex and Edge are the best in this rifle. Throw the other three out. In all cases, best groups are significantly better than averages. I'd be tempted to shoot more groups with the Tenex and Edge at their optimal tuner positions to see if these results are reproducible. Then go half a turn in either direction and see if groups become larger or smaller. Nothing like the scientific method! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Long way to go. I think there are 16 turns in total. And just to through a proverbial monkey wrench in the works, I will shoot 2 groups of each at 5 turns! Be interesting to see the difference. We all know that shooting ten groups one gets ten different sizes. May be the difference will give us an indication. | |||
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Sixteen turns seems like a lot! I copied Bobster's tuner photo from his post above: I am curious, Saeed, does yours looks like this? This appears to be a Hoehn 4000 PLUS tuner. It looks to be threaded to the barrel, but also like it has a set screw pretty far out toward its muzzle. I'm trying to figure out from the picture how it attaches/works, but it's got me scratching my head. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I have this one too. Too large. So we made our own. Will post pictures. | |||
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I shot two lots of groups with 5 turns on the tuner, to see what happens. Here are the results. Eley Match 0.396 0.706 Eley Tenex 0.489 0.435 Eley Edge 0.311 0.289 Eley Contact 0.466 0.380 Eley rabbit 0.694 0.523 I will do the same on 10 turns and see. | |||
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This is a great test series, Saeed. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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It seems to me that the length of the sine wave would be the key. As long as one had enough adjustment to cover the full length of the wave, more or less would seem to be unimportant. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I have finished 16 full turns on the tuner. I have not measured the groups yet, will do that tomorrow. Will see which turn has the best accuracy, and will shoot more groups at 1/4 turn and see. | |||
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When someone is trying to tune his barrel, it is normally to one type of ammo. So, I will pick at what stage each type of ammo shot best, then shoot groups with that ammo one turn more and one turn less, at 1/4 turns intervals. I think this might be a good idea to see the results. If any of you has any suggestions, I will be happy to have them. | |||
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More results. Eley Match No tuner 0.617 Best with tuner 0.296 at 6 turns Worst with tuner 0.770 at 12 turns Average with tuner 0.527 Eley Tenex No tuner 0.525 Best 0.181 at 4 Worst 0.796 at 16 Average with tuner 0.433 Eley Edge No tuner 0.424 Best 0.246 at 7 Worst 0.627 at 6 Average with tuner 0.409 Eley Contact No tuner 0.410 Best 0.366 at 1 Worst 0.754 at 12 Average with tuner 0.504 Eley Rabbit No tuner 0.676 Best 0.494 at 1 Worst 1.065 at 13 Average with tuner 0.720 I will shoot one turn either side of each ammo best group. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Shooting Rim Fire Rifles & Pistols Next Test - Barrel Tuner! Targets Have Been Added.
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