A buddy in Califoney and I are in the process of Testing various Brands of 22LRs in our rifles. He is after some kind of ground Squirrel and I'm after tree Squirrels. We realize each rifle will shoot better with some Rimfires, not as well with others, and each rifle is unique to itself as far as what it prefers.

He has a Marlin M980 that he has done some accuracy work on, lateral shimming the trigger in the trunion, floating the barrel, some trigger work, and he lightened his Trigger Spring a coil or two. Mine is a Marlin M880 with only a slicked up trigger and a Ball Point Pen Spring which is significantly lighter.

He currently has a variable that goes up to 14x on his and is planning to put a 3-9x back on it. He was wondering if his smaller scope was bad, but hasn't re-shot it yet. I had a 3-10x on mine and just stuck a 6-24x on it for this Testing.

He is determined to use 5-shot groups and I normally use 3-shot groups. So, I tried some 5-shot groups yesterday, but didn't have a lot of time. My Sample Size is way too small to draw any significant conclusions. But, these are in the order I shot them, with wind comments:

Rem Golden Bullet
3-shots in 0.18" with no apparent wind. Then the wind picked up slightly and the next 2 opened the 5-shot group to 0.85". Should have stopped and waited on the wind, but I was pressed for time(worthless excuse).

CCI Standard Velocity
5-shots in 0.95" with a good bit of wind. These need to be re-shot because they have always shot better than that for me.

Win Super X
4-shots in 0.30" with some slight breeze. Last shot opened it to 0.65". You could hear the difference with these being louder than all the Standard velocity ammo. Surprised me at how well it shot.

Win Wildcat
5-shots in 0.45" with a slight breeze. This rifle has always liked the Wildcats.

Rem Thunderbolt
3-shots in 0.35" and 5-shots in 1.15" with a slight breeze. I suspect the 0.35" was a fluke because I'd shot it last week at 50yds and had a 5-shot group of 2.25". Double the distance and double the group. This actually surprises me at how "bad" it shot because I've used a lot of it plinking Off-Hand on Soda Pop cans at 100yds. Seemed to shoot pretty good there.

Fed Gold Medal
5-shots in 0.35" with a slight breeze. I doubt this surprises anyone.

I have 13 types of 22LRs in a box somewhere if I can find it. Some of it may be duplications of the above, but not all of it. If I can find it, I want to see how well it will do in comparison.
-----

So, we would appreciate any 3-shot or 5-shot groups you all believe are typical for your rifles. The kind of rifle, any work done to it and what power scope you are using.

My buddy believes 0.30" groups are possible at 50yds with his rifle on a consistant basis - with no wind. I doubt I can shoot this light-weight rifle that well any more, plus the wind factor, so we cut it to 25yds.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
A buddy in Califoney and I are in the process of Testing various Brands of 22LRs in our rifles. ... We realize each rifle will shoot better with some Rimfires, not as well with others, and each rifle is unique to itself as far as what it prefers.

...

...

He is determined to use 5-shot groups and I normally use 3-shot groups. So, I tried some 5-shot groups yesterday, but didn't have a lot of time. My Sample Size is way too small to draw any significant conclusions. But, these are in the order I shot them, with wind comments:

So, we would appreciate any 3-shot or 5-shot groups you all believe are typical for your rifles. The kind of rifle, any work done to it and what power scope you are using.

My buddy believes 0.30" groups are possible at 50yds with his rifle on a consistent basis - with no wind. I doubt I can shoot this light-weight rifle that well any more, plus the wind factor, so we cut it to 25yds.

Not that you'll bother reading this but my best results of late have been

CCI Standard Velocity .22LR
and
Fed Gold Medal

0.25-0.4" for both depending on wind and such.
0.25-0.35 at the indoor range with no wind.
Mixed results with Aguilar Target both pistol and rifle versions.

Firearms:

2-7X, Contender 16" pistol and CZ Rifle with 3x9X.

CCI Stinger is spotty currently and I've had a lot of them that took multiple pin strikes of late and still didn't go bang.

You may think whatever you do of me but I shoot multiple bricks a week of .22LR, I gave you useful info and didn't even insult you. May you someday return the favor.



tom


My current vote with my wallet is Federal Gold Medal as of the last 5000 rounds I just ordered Tuesday.

My Ruger 77/22 shoots just over 1" at 100 yrds and .375 at 50 I have never shot it at 25.

Hey Tom, Great info. I really do prefer to be civil, though it is difficult for some folks to believe.

Hey Ted, Also excellent info. What power scope are you using and what kind of ammo?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Tom, Great info. I really do prefer to be civil, though it is difficult for some folks to believe.

Hey Ted, Also excellent info. What power scope are you using and what kind of ammo?

I have a 3x9x40 Vari X II Leupy and am now shooting Fed Gold Cup.

I also shoot this rig out to 200+ at knock downs when waiting for barrels to cool off or when letting one soak in copper foam.

IMHO, 3 or 5 shot groups in .22RF don't prove much. By that I mean that my club events call for 2 targets of 10 shots each at one go.

Admittedly there is wind to contend with, but it's amazing how often one 10 shot group looks nothing like its neighbour.

Also it's quite common to get one flyer in only 10 or 20 shots. Sometimes I'm chopping the centre bull to bits, then by the tenth shot the group has doubled.

Others on the net are talking about good groups while still on the lube of previous brands, and then accuracy tapers off.

A mate sometimes gets better groups at 90metres and 60 m. with T-22 than with SK match ect.

Well it's a crap shoot, but I'd want to put at least 10 down the barrel and then do a few ten shot groups to say what is going to be an average.

Another problem I have is that with greasy Lapua target ammo my first shot with a cold barrel is up to 6" high at 90m. which would be a real pain for hunting.

Hey Ted, I feel sure the fartherest I've shot a Rimfire is 100yds. I always enjoy the Off-hand shooting with it while the centerfire barrels cool, just as you mentioned. This 6-24x scope has a Mil-Dot Reticle and I feel sure I'll do some more 100yd plinking. Might try a bit farther now that you mentioned it.
-----

Hey JAL, Funny you should mention 10-shot groups. I've somehow misplaced my 3-ring binder that has the Targets from the last time I shot to see which ammo my Rimfire rifles liked the best. Did find the 3-ring binder for the 22RF Pistols and they all have 10-shot groups.

Just looked and have three different kinds of Eley, some Win Super Match IV, the T-22 and a few different Subsonic types. All of this has been shot in this Marlin before, but since the Targets can't be found it's as if it never happened.
-----

Hey Tom, Before I moved, I was 1 mile from an Indoor Range. Used to do a lot of Pistol/Revolver shooting there. And they had a 50yd section with 5 Rifle stations. Nice to go there when doing Case Forming and initial Pressure Testing, but too short for determining the Best Load for the Centerfires. Should have done some Testing with the Marlin M880 there, but I don't think I did.

However, what you said about the "Indoor" Range has caused me to think a good bit about it. Right now my Range is simply a place I mowed in a Weed Field. I have it mowed about 10-12yds wide and it needs a trim right now. But, when I trim it, I plan to cut two other strips only 1 mower width wide, separate from the normal spot. One will be 25yds long and the other 50yds long. Hopefully the narrower strip will reduce the wind effect a bit. Also plan to "lower" the Target to ground level instead of up in the air.

Not concerned about Ricochets, because the Weeds are thick enough to catch and stop the Rimfires. Plus there is a HUGE bluff if some do manage to smack a rock. Thanks again for the input.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Hey Tom, Before I moved, I was 1 mile from an Indoor Range. Used to do a lot of Pistol/Revolver shooting there. And they had a 50yd section with 5 Rifle stations. Nice to go there when doing Case Forming and initial Pressure Testing, but too short for determining the Best Load for the Centerfires. Should have done some Testing with the Marlin M880 there, but I don't think I did.

However, what you said about the "Indoor" Range has caused me to think a good bit about it. Right now my Range is simply a place I mowed in a Weed Field. I have it mowed about 10-12yds wide and it needs a trim right now. But, when I trim it, I plan to cut two other strips only 1 mower width wide, separate from the normal spot. One will be 25yds long and the other 50yds long. Hopefully the narrower strip will reduce the wind effect a bit. Also plan to "lower" the Target to ground level instead of up in the air.

Not concerned about Ricochets, because the Weeds are thick enough to catch and stop the Rimfires. Plus there is a HUGE bluff if some do manage to smack a rock. Thanks again for the input.

I moved where I did because it was next to one of the few thousand yard rifle ranges in Texas. Now it's being turned into houses and I get neighbor yuppy commuter complaints from about 4 miles away that end up with deputies coming out and explaining that I'm not doing anything illegal after determining I'm not doing anything illegal. So I go to the indoor range to shoot the loud stuff just to save the hassle with and for the deputies because of one new lady down the road. I've been looking into building my own 100 yard long and 10 foot wide "pole barn" indoor range with a bit of soundproofing so I don't have to make a 50 mile round trip to test out .458 Lott loads etc. Either that or sell out and move to near Alpine where there's still SANE Texans.

I believe some of the Factories use large diameter Pipe similar to Culvert Pipe to make a below ground level shooting tunnel. Sure is a lot of trouble to make neighbors happy.

it may be hard for some to believe but my 1022 custom will shoot a one hole group about .25 caliber at 40 yrds off a bench and sand bags... i didn't believe it myself the first time i shot it.... and i was using 550 rd bulk packed federal ammo from wal-mart.................. I LIKE IT!!!!!

Hey Tasco 74, What kind and power scope are you using? How many shots in the group? Anything special done to the rifle?

Sounds like a rifle that could go Squirrel Hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I believe some of the Factories use large diameter Pipe similar to Culvert Pipe to make a below ground level shooting tunnel. Sure is a lot of trouble to make neighbors happy.

Alpine idea sounds better every day. Virgil Tripp moved out there.

Best of luck with the move. About 5 years ago I had to move to help some family members with health problems. I'd been gone about 40 years.

I was out looking the place over and a neighbor showed up. First thing out of his mouth was, "They have changed the Law about Killing dogs. Do you still shoot them?" (Obviously concerned about his son's dogs.) "Naw, I don't know anyone stupid enough up here to let their Pets chase Livestock. Excellent chance of some getting culled if they bother the Livestock though." I feel sure that made them all feel better.

You have neighbors everywhere you go. They have a tendancy to change and you never know who will move in. Some resent you protecting your Property and some understand. Some expect to buy an acre and have the tranquility of a National Forest. And some do their best to change everything they moved to be around.

If moving helps you resolve the issue to your satisfaction, then that is the thing to do. Best of luck which ever way you decide.

Remington 1522 Plated 40 grainers did about 0.25 this morning. Deserves further investigation. Need to do some cleaning and start from scratch after some fouling shots to see how it does on it's own because it was following a lot of Federal that had been shot in the past week. Maybe tomorrow if I have the time.

Might be I just was having a good day.

Contender 16".

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Tasco 74, What kind and power scope are you using? How many shots in the group? Anything special done to the rifle?

Sounds like a rifle that could go Squirrel Hunting!

all i was using for a scope was a simmons 4by 32 rimfire scope a friend gave me... the thing shoots 5 shot groups i cover with my finger tip consistantly....

That is some excellent shooting.

The 3-9x Scope my buddy was using does not have an Adjustable Objective. When he put it back on his Marlin, the Parallax was now quite noticable after having the AO Bushnell on it. So, the 3-9x came back off and the Bushnell back on.

He has been gathering information concerning "Headspace". Never crossed my mind, but he got to wondering about it. Now we are in the process of thinking our way through how to do some Variable Headspace Testing. I doubt I'll get into that, but I imagine it is something he will enjoy messing with.

I've odored a 2-7X32mm Variable NcStar to play with for plinking with my rim and centerfire .22 Contenders. I'll keep you posted on if they are worthy of anything. Price is right and be an OK knock around scope for that reason. Couple hundred rounds shall tell if it was a bargain or not. Nice price if it works.

Leo seems to have dropped the variable handgun scope I wanted to order from production so I'm experimenting with the other end of the price range and looking for used Leo Variable handgun scopes.

Hey Tom, I'm real interested in how well the Scope performs. I've been running some Inexpensive Scope Testing for a couple of years now to see how well they hold up and if a Warranty is needed how the company responds.

Lots of youngsters ask me for a recommendation and I just can't tell them to wait until they can afford a Leupold. Right now, I'm well impressed with Bushnell, Millett and Optronics "for the price".

The real inexpensive Optronics claims that even if you run over it with the truck they will replace it for you. That is a better Warranty than Leupold.

Had to send one Millett back because a piece of what appeared to be Gasket Material ended up on the inside of the Rear Lens. Not big enough to cause a problem with a Hunt and it was off at about 2 O'clock near the outside. No apparent loss of Nitrogen and no Fogging appeared. They swapped the scope and had a new one here in (I think) 7 or 9 working days, which included my Shipping the Scope to them.

hotcore--you are doing one of the things I like most about a .22 RF--deciphering its likes and dislikes in ammo. I have 8-9 .22s and each has its favorite ammo. My CZ VArmint model likes Remington SubSonics, my Rem 513 likes Eley Club Extra, and on and on. There are so many different ammo lines and types of ammo within lines I don't think I could ever get through them all---but I'm trying.

I recommend you stop by RimfireCentral.com and read a few of their threads on ammo testing. You may be amazed at the abundant theories as to how many rounds per group is minimum, how many groups per test is minimum, and how many rounds you just need to shoot into the backstop before testing to get the old lube out of the bore and the new lube in.

Best of all--good luck, and maybe your rifles will have a preference for one of the less expensive ammo types.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Tom, I'm real interested in how well the Scope performs. I've been running some Inexpensive Scope Testing for a couple of years now to see how well they hold up and if a Warranty is needed how the company responds,...

I'm gonna run it 500 rounds (if it makes it) on the .223 Ackley Improved Contender barrel first. Baptism of FIRE for a .22 scope. I'll let you know how it goes. And no, it won't be pointed at plains game heads.

Hey Dustoffer, Mr. Bob and I are both enjoying the mental part of it as much as the actual shooting. The Range he belongs to shoots the 50-BR Matches and he has been talking to one of them. We both realize our rifles are not competitive, nor is my shooting ability anymore, but we are sure enjoying messing with them.

His buddy mentioned just what you did (below) about RimfireCentral and he sent me links to a good many of their discussions. Reading there really got Mr. Bob fired-up about various things we just had not considered. He is currently putting a lot of thought into the "Headspace" issue they discuss.

quote:

Originally posted by dustoffer:
...I recommend you stop by RimfireCentral.com and read a few of their threads on ammo testing. You may be amazed at the abundant theories as to how many rounds per group is minimum, how many groups per test is minimum, and how many rounds you just need to shoot into the backstop before testing to get the old lube out of the bore and the new lube in...

Yes, it seems as if there is every mix of Testing possible - with folks in support of all the different Methods.

What is the typical 25yd accuracy are you able to get? From my other thread on the Weight Sorting, I'm really surprised at many of the results.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:

I'm gonna run it 500 rounds (if it makes it) on the .223 Ackley Improved Contender barrel first. Baptism of FIRE for a .22 scope. I'll let you know how it goes. And no, it won't be pointed at plains game heads.

I had that Optronics on a 243Win last year and had intended to put it on a 7mmRemMag and then the 350RemMag, but ran out of time. I agree that a good Recoil will Test a scope for Reliability as well as anything.

By the way, I made it to a small Gun SHow last year and a guy had a very small Red Dot NcStar Sight for $70 new. It looked exactly like the Burris Reflex Sight which is twice that much and the same as the Tru-Glo which is 4-5x that much. I darn near bought it, but had no idea of what I'd use it for back then. Still not sure, but it is the smallest and best priced Red Dot Sight I've seen.

Good luck with your Testing.

I'll show you a group my Suhl factory barrel 22lr shot at 25yds. Some may not believe it, but I can tell you I have no reason to mislead anyone. This group below was measured by Jim Finn in Alaska. He came up with .021ctc. At the time, Jim told me that was the smallest 5 shot group he ever measured.

I just so wanted to suggest to you folks to try shooting from a rest - but I thought better of it!

I used to shoot silhouette with my Remington 512 Sport Master. I just couldn't miss with it. I won all the club competitions. But when I tried 'grouping' the rifle, the groups were so bad I nearly lost confidence! Then they went 'Olympic' which meant smaller targets at longer ranges. My rifle just would not deliver at 100m. At 100yds (91m) I could shoot the ram with headshots! (Without putting the bullet through that silly hole made by the back curled 'horns'). When I came to my new country, I discovered that my rifle had a worn muzzle. It must have been like that all along. But still, it was able to make me think it was accurate using the 'cheap' ammo of the day. That was SP high velocity solids, made in the old RSA. These had a full, round nose. (They didn’t always fire). Nowadays, I select cartridges with similar 'full round noses' and I get pretty good results. (I have since cut a bit off the barrel). Anything with 'two-diameter' or 'conical nose' design shoots crap in my rifle. Federal and CCI sub-sonic's seem to be pretty good for me. (Possums hate those and the Remington!)

Now brad541thb - seriously, what can I say! (Holy ummm..... cow, comes to mind!)
But I notice your group is just a little off the centre! (They don't have a jealous 'smiley').

Nice one!

Doing it that way keeps the groups smaller since you don't shoot out your aiming point.

The bottom left target is deadnut for you.



Thanks for the compliments 303Guy.

Hey Brad and 303Guy, Always great to see groups like that, helps keep me from thinking I can still shoot.

That is great. If ya`ll head this way to see who buys the Supper, leave those rifles there in MO and NZ. I can let you all use a "Loaner" and special Bullets.

HOLY COW, Brad. Beautiful!
(I once shot a one-hole centre of bull group like that. And I did it with only one shot!)

I have been trying like mad to get my eye back in. At least I can claim that I am improving! Seeing those targets is inspirational - and heart warming!

OK, so I don't have a Suhl, but it's nice to know it can be done and someone is doing it. Thanks for sharing those pics!

Hey, a nice thing about an accurate rifle is we know it was us when we miss. I refer to myself when I say "we". (I hate wondering whether it was me or the rifle).

Say, Hot core, I have my own, how shall I call him, "he who makes me feel humble" guy at my club. Man he can shoot! I like to 'glance' at his targets and dream of getting there someday. He makes me want to keep trying.

Thanks 303Guy.

I'll show you what the Suhl looked like when I bought it.



Here's a few groups at 50yds.

The Suhl recently had a new makeover.





I believe it shoots a little better now.

Mine arent nearly that good but here are a fiew from my plain old hunting 22. All are 50 yrds.

Brad.....were not worthy.

Hey 303Guy, I think I noticed something on Brad's rifle that might help us. Maybe we need a dab of Green Paint on the Fore End of our rifles.

Hay Brad, sure glad you showed the flicks. I had no idea at all that a Suhl is a Rail Gun. Makes me understand about the Groups much better.

Don't have any of them, but it sure is nice to see how one shoots. I doubt I'll get my Marlin M880SS shooting "quite" that good.

Got to go shoot the M880SS today for a couple of hours at 25yds. Sun got too low(aka in my eyes) to continue about 4PM. Haven't had a chance to measure the w-i-d-e groups yet. I was burning up some old ammo which I don't believe the companies even make anymore - Fed Lightning, Fed Power Flight and Win Super X Mark IV.

Also shot a Squirrel Killing Group with Weight-Sorted Remington Target, but it wasn't the best I've shot. Did have one Dud in with them - so far. Recycled the Dud 3 more times, still wouldn't fire.

The original Suhl isn't what I call a rail gun. It's sort of similar to an older Anschutz 54. But they sure do shoot great.

Beauty! Thanks for the pics. Once again - WOW!

quote:

... Green Paint ...

That would probably be the closest I would come to owning a rifle like that!
It seems to shoot smaller groups at longer ranges!

(The next instalment will be 75yd groups. Looking forward to it! There will be 75yd groups, right? Followed by 100yd?)

Ted, your rifle shoots better than mine! (Or maybe you shoot better than me).

quote:

Originally posted by brad541thb:
The original Suhl isn't what I call a rail gun. ...

Hey Brad, My eyes aren't near as good as they used to be. The flicks of the Suhl look like they have a "Rail" along the side which rides along Delrin Blocks on the Rest. No doubt about it, those are some fine groups.

If those are not Rails, maybe my groups are actually "smaller" than I think they are.

Do you have a Rimfire for Squirrels and Rabbits? How does it shoot?
-----

Hey Ted, I was running short on time yesterday, and those are some fine 50yd groups you are shooting with the Ruger. I hope to get my M880SS shooting that good eventually.

a bit ago i took a dozen or so of my22's out and shot up a bunch of different ammo i had on hand. all in all it took all day to do cause i shot about a dozen different types in all the guns. the real surprise came when i found the most consistent ammo was the el cheapo american eagle stuff from federal. I'd always fired remmy standards for practice in pistol, cci's in smallbore and ely for match, of course no single ammo did across the board best, but the eagle stuff did better in most.

This is more along the lines of what I call a rail gun. There are no rails on my rifle. What your calling a rail, is just the shape of the stock.

http://www.accu-shot.net/ara.htm

I don't hunt squirrels or rabbits anymore. I do have a couple of Marlin 17HMR's that shoot real good. At 50yds, they both will stack bullets.

JAL mentioned 10 shot groups. Here's a few that are under .250ctc. That is subtracting .204 for bullet diameter and not .224 like some other folks will do. 22 bullets don't print a .224 bullet hole on most paper. On avg, .204 is about a good consistent bullet diameter avg hole from my findings on most paper used for targets. That group on the left was shot with $3 a box SkPistol Match. It's about $5 a box now. People have caught on to how well it shoots. That's what I get for telling people how well it shoots.

Hotcore--sorry to take so long to get back to you. My typical groups ( 5 @ 25 yds) are .30 and under shooting my CZ Varmint with Rem Subsonics. My Rem 37 has shot as tight as .118" for 5 shots, 25 yds using RWS R-50 ammo. 50 yd groups are double those numbers plus a bit. However, the squirrels haven't seemed to notice whether it is a half-inch or 9/16", they just fall out of the tree.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Mine arent nearly that good but here are a fiew from my plain old hunting 22. All are 50 yrds.

Brad.....were not worthy.

Ted, is that a stock standard 77-22 ? If so, I've got to try some of that ammo.

All you folks sure are keeping my groups "humble". A nice one will occasionally fall in place, but not many Braggers - yet!