If you had to pick the perfect rifle/caliber
What would it be and why would it be perfect?

Question:
Why?

Choices:
30.06 Pump
45-70 Lever
458WM bolt

 

I am guessing you own these 3 rifles because my choice would be none of the above.

I would want a 375 H&H or a 416 of some flavour for Kodiaks.

More reach and as much punch as a 458.

Of the 3 you chose I would take the 458. If it was going to be close cover I would take the 45/70 and some loads from Buffalo Bore or Garret Cartridge.

Thanks for the repley

Of those 3 I would go with a 458 Win Mag.

I would load a 400gr premium bullet like a Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, Swift A Frame, North Fork, etc.

As long as my velocity was @ 2200/2250fps I would be happy.

My second choice would be the 45/70 Lever.
I would use the 350gr North Fork.

I have to agree with Hasher above. I would take none of the three, but if forced to, I'd take the .458 Mag with a lighter NonCon bullet.

Yes, as above...I'd take a light-loaded 458 out of the above choices. In reality, I'd take my Marquart FN 416 Howell shooting 350gr TSXs.

Of the three I'd take the .458. The lighter bullets like NE450 suggested are appropriate, it'll hit 'em like the Hammer of Thor and I'd guess you guide will move you into appropriate range. All three would work and I'd think somebody experienced would tell you so also.

On the other hand, if you are paying for airline tickets to fly all the way to Kodiak AK, and if you are paying for a guided BB hunt, and if you are expecting to pay for taxidermy, some hotel and restaraunt accomodations, and mebbe even paying for a new set of hip waders, I can't figure why you'd be opposed to buying a good used ideal BB rifle.

I am just certain that you can find a used Ruger .338 somewhere in between now and the time you head to the airport. Bolt a Leopold scope on it, buy three boxes of good factory ammo, four boxes of cheap-o -get used to the rifle ammo, and burn it up. Take the rifle to Kodiak, hold dead on at 300 yards on your trophy BB, and after its all over sell the friggin' thing for what you paid for it.

I don't own a .338 and really don't want to but I know its reputation, its economy and really don't see the down side.

If those were my only choices, I would have to go with the 458. As others have stated, I would pick up the 375. I actually used the 375 with 235 gr. bullets and it worked fine for me.

Tom

If thats all you got the 458 would be the one. A pump would be the last gun I would want to use in Alaska on a high dollar trip. Too many parts to break or a possible jam. On the other hand, I agree if you are spending that kind of cash get yourself something better suited to the game and the environment you will be hunting in....and a SS Ruger 338 Mag is a good place to start as it will only set you back perhaps $450 + maybe $250 for a good scope. You can always sell this combo for what you paid for it after the hunt.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no "perfect" rifle for this application. Having written that, I wouldn't use any of the ones you mention, either. If those were the only rifles I had, I wouldn't go but that's me.
Bear in Fairbanks

quote:

I wouldn't use any of the ones you mention, either.

Why is that?

OK here is a question, for hunters that have done so, and Guides that hunt Brown Bear on Kodiak.
What is the average distance that bear are shot???

What is the longest distance that bear have been shot at???

quote:

OK here is a question, for hunters that have done so, and Guides that hunt Brown Bear on Kodiak.
What is the average distance that bear are shot???
What is the longest distance that bear have been shot at???

Very good questions!

PAPI

I have been guiding for Brown Bears on the Alaska Peninsula for over twenty five years and the average shots for my hunters has been well under 100 yards. I prefer them to be under 50. I don't try to stalk close enough for them to hit the bear but try to get close enough that they can't miss!

Of the three calibers mentioned I naturally prefer the 458 - especially since that when I am forced to shoot the bear is already wounded , but the 338 and the 375 are better for most hunters.

Thanks Phil I was hoping you would respond.

Of the calibres the OP wanted us to choose from, a 458 Win mag with a 400gr bullet at @2200fps does not really kick that bad, and has plenty of range and "thump", IMHO for ANY bear...

And also like, you I would prefer a Fella, or Gal have a 308 or a 30/06, with good bullet, that they can shoot, over a 600 Nitro that they cannot...

My choice of the 458 had as much to do with it being listed in a bolt action and the 30-06 listed in a pump as with the two calibers.
For the average bear hunter ( and even above average ones for that matter) a good case could be made that the 30-06 with premium bullets in a reliable bolt rifle would probably be a better choice than the 458.

A hunt which is suggested is a hunt of a lifetime for many folks. Probably exceeding $20K by the time it is all said and done especially on the lower Penn. where logistics are very expensive not to mention taxidermy.
I suspect most folks plan and save a long time for such a hunt so why not learn how to shoot a gun suited for the task. You probably have the time.
A excellent low cost, beater gun is the Ruger Alaskan in 416 or 375.
Practice over a year or two should get you confident with your weapon.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
I am guessing you own these 3 rifles because my choice would be none of the above.

I would want a 375 H&H or a 416 of some flavour for Kodiaks.

More reach and as much punch as a 458.

Of the 3 you chose I would take the 458. If it was going to be close cover I would take the 45/70 and some loads from Buffalo Bore or Garret Cartridge.

Ditto!

I guess I would rather have a hunter who can shoot a 300 Win Mag well, then one who flinches when shooting a 375 H&H. If the hunter can shoot them equally or close to equally well, the 375s pack a great punch. I certainly defer to Phil's experience on this and wonder what his opinion is.

I would rather guide a hunter using a .270 that he could shoot well than someone with a new .375 that he was afraid of.

quote:

Originally posted by nyatiinc.com:
If you had to pick the perfect rifle/caliber
What would it be and why would it be perfect?

Seems your really asking 2 questions: 1) whats best? and 2) of your 3 choices which would you pick?

1) My "best rifle" would be this 9,3x62 Mauser:

With my reload of 286 NPT right at 2,400 FPS

2) If your going to be hunting with a guide and if that 06 pump is really reliable - I'd pick it. If not I'd go with the 458.

The 458with
350 a-frame @2500fps
or
4oo a-frame @2400fps

take the 45/70 as a back up rifle using 350 a-frame at 2000-2100 fps
the late jack o'conner once said that he sees no need for the 220 grain bullet in the 30/06 except for maybe african lions as the 180 grain bullets will go through both shoulders of a grizzly!

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:

the late jack o'conner once said that he sees no need for the 220 grain bullet in the 30/06 except for maybe african lions as the 180 grain bullets will go through both shoulders of a grizzly!

Jack obviously never shot a big brown bear.

I shot my Grizzly this past spring and a 338 was just perfect; Nice 8' bear.
I did build by Brown Bear rifle some years ago and need to use it for its intended purpose before long.

Started life as a Stainless Mod 70 375 H&H. I had it rechambered to 375 Wea. Barrel is 24" and it has a McMillan Drop box synthetic stock (holds 4 down) and Sunny hill SS bottom metal. NECG front sight and Brockman peep on the rear Talley Base. QD Talley rings and a 1.5 X 6 X 42 Kahles scope.
It will shoot Wea. factory 300 NP's at 2800 FPS (Chrono) at 90 F.
It shoots them very accurately so I see no real need to hand load for this application.
The only down side to this gun is it is a bit heavy. The 24" barrel is not best suited for brush and I spent quite a bit on it.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:

the late jack o'conner once said that he sees no need for the 220 grain bullet in the 30/06 except for maybe african lions as the 180 grain bullets will go through both shoulders of a grizzly!

Jack obviously never shot a big brown bear.

Actualy he did but he used a Pre-64 Model 70 in 375 H&H. Although he loved the 270 Win. he knew its limitations.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I would rather guide a hunter using a .270 that he could shoot well than someone with a new .375 that he was afraid of.

What about a hunter that was good with a .270 and another that was good with a .375, but you could only guide one?

I'd pick the one with the most worn gear.

.378 Weatherby Magnum with 270 or 300 grain Nosler Partition, North Fork, Swift-A-Frames, Barnes TSX. Just my opinion.

Steve

You can only kill them so dead
but if you can shoot it correctly a 378 should do

I don't know that I will ever get it put together, but I would love to take a Brown Bear. Phil (and I probably should address you as Mr. Shoemaker), where would you rate a 35 Whelen with premium controlled expansion projectiles of 250 grains for the big bears?

And if this is a stupid question, I apologize. I just know very little about the really big stuff. Bought a Lott 20 mos. ago with the idea of shooting a really big bore and four months later had a diskectomy and fusion of C-4. So the big guy is probably out, at least shooting full tilt stuff.

I rate the 35 Whelen, especially with our new premium bullets, as one of the best rounds for hunting large bears. Like it's European counterpart, the 9.3x62, it comes mighty close in effectiveness to the 375 H&H.

This is what a guide told me during a hunt and it stuck in my mind ever since

It was a 2 on 1 hunt about 2 years ago and invariably caliber discussion came up during camp fire

He started of by stating 35 caliber and above is the minimum wound channel he considers for DG in any continent

He calls it wound channel to torso width ratio - whatever that is

35 whelan and 9.3 are for people who wants an up close and personal hunt / chase for a brown bear

Any thing above that like a 458 416 and 45-70 are for people who has no confidence in their ability to place their first shot and clients who turns up with larzzaroni and weatherbys are too afraid to face a brown bear up close hence they want to take a loooong shot

That his conclusion after guiding brown bear for 15 seasons

I am sure you guys would disagree ........

BTw I did turn up with a 416 double rigby

Corncob rounds in a double? OUCH!!!

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
This is what a guide told me during a hunt and it stuck in my mind ever since

It was a 2 on 1 hunt about 2 years ago and invariably caliber discussion came up during camp fire

He started of by stating 35 caliber and above is the minimum wound channel he considers for DG in any continent

He calls it wound channel to torso width ratio - whatever that is

35 whelan and 9.3 are for people who wants an up close and personal hunt / chase for a brown bear

Any thing above that like a 458 416 and 45-70 are for people who has no confidence in their ability to place their first shot and clients who turns up with larzzaroni and weatherbys are too afraid to face a brown bear up close hence they want to take a loooong shot

That his conclusion after guiding brown bear for 15 seasons

I am sure you guys would disagree ........

BTw I did turn up with a 416 double rigby

My amateur opinion is that your guide was only sort of right. Folks show up for a hunt with the rifle that tickles their individual fancy a lot of the time. The resident and non resident hunters around here use their .458's, .223's, .300 Weatherbys, do so in many cases because they think its neat-o. I own a 30-06 that I used to kill the biggest bull moose I've ever taken and a matching model .375 that I've used to take another grand bull. Inspite of their proven to me usefulness, last year I used a 9.3 to great effect and this year I hope to use a .458. The first moose rifle I owned and used on several big bulls and was very happy with was a .300 weatherby I recently sold. See what I mean? "The best," or whatever influenced little of my choice in rifles. I chose the, (for me,) flavor of the month. My choice of the .300 weatherby had nothing to do with being afraid, and my choice of the .458 has nothing to do with confidence. I get to goof with rifle cartidges that I fancy because I live here, theres BB poop in my driveway and if sommething doesn't work this weekend or this month theres always next month. When my friend Joe asked me what cartridge I'd recommend to him for our moose hunt several years ago I recommended the .338 and it did work fine.

I've used the 9.3 on two bulls and am very impressed. I believe my experience on moose is at least broadly applicable to brown bears as Dillingham is BB country, moose and bears are of similar size and any moose hunt we undertake here has the definate possibility of turning into a bear encounter.

FWIW I took a 27 3/8" skull bear around here at 15 yards with the .338 I used to own and it piled him up hard.

I recommend versatile cartridges for tourist hunters. You flew all the way here. You took time off work, Pissed of the wife, hurt the dogs feelings, bought a bunch of hunting gear you'll likely never use back home and now here, (or in Kodiak,) you are. The 45/70 has the trajectory of a soft ball, the .378 has busted your three best sets of eye glasses, and you know darn well your guide will almost instantly back up shoot your boar with his rifle if you stick it with your re curve. Why not bring a rifle that you can repeatedly cycle with accuracy and confidence. Were you the kind of hunter that'd been here a dozen times, taken 14 bears, (?!) then I think it'd be a great idea to use your muzzle loader.

Practice, Practice, and Practice some more. It all comes down to bullet placement. As you all know.

If one hunter shoots a BB in the correct spot with his/her trusty 30/06 they will be sure to get their bear. Than if I where to go out and shot a bear in the wrong spot with my .378 which may end up getting my guide and/or myself killed.
That is why I practice shooting Praire dogs, Coyotes and running Jack rabbits with my 378's. My .378's has never hit me in the face or eye socket.

Happy shooting and Hunting everyone.

Of the choices available I chose the .458, but would not use it if hunting Alaska myself. I have used the .338 Win Mag. with 250 gr. Nosler Partitions and the .375 H&H with 270 gr. Power Points on quite a few large game animals and if there is any difference in killing power between the two I have been unable to notice it. Velocity of the two loads is nearly the same and bullet weight is within 20 grs. Half the weight of a .22 LR. bullet. Expanded diameter of the recovered bullets has been about the same.

My point is that IMHO we make more of caliber choice than we should. IMHO much of this is just frivolous conversation. Fun, but not very significant.

Looking at the original proposal again I would say that if any of the three choices offered are your favorite rifle then it would be the one I would recommend you bring.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:

the late jack o'conner once said that he sees no need for the 220 grain bullet in the 30/06 except for maybe african lions as the 180 grain bullets will go through both shoulders of a grizzly!

Jack obviously never shot a big brown bear.

That is true, he did not.

220 grain cup and core bullets have a proventrack record. If useing a mono-metal such as the TSX i'd not go above 180 grains because of their length and this then presents a stabilization issuse as well as having to been seated very deeply in the case.

Lighter mono metalbullets routinelyout penetrate heavier lead cup and core bullets

monometal bullets like the TSX do routinely penetrate deeper than most cup and core bullets but frontal area , which affects SD, is still the limiting factor in penetration. In all of my testing the 220 Partitions from my 30-06 consistently outpenetrated the 180gr TSX bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
monometal bullets like the TSX do routinely penetrate deeper than most cup and core bullets but frontal area , which affects SD, is still the limiting factor in penetration. In all of my testing the 220 Partitions from my 30-06 consistently outpenetrated the 180gr TSX bullets.

In tests or on game? In my expereince the TSX in 30 caliber have not been outpenetrated by any wieght cup and core.
Not sure if that holds true in all calibers
, but I think they would offer plenty of penetration. I know the the 350 grain TSX in 416 has more than enough penetration on game in fact more than the 400 Partition