The rifle you don't want is the one that's leaning against a tree 50 feet away while you're fishing ... When you hear that grizzly sniff so loud and turn around and it's closer to you than your rifle!

Time for a swim through the rapids ... true story ... Older and wiser now.

Chuck

I've given this some thought as its been here for a bit and, while hunting,guiding, and DLPing lots of bears I've never been charged. But if I only had to do business with wounded bears any rifle capable of sending a 300 gr+ at 2150 fps would do the trick. The deal is not to get yourself in that predicament.

I prefer the momentum over kinetic energy approach.

So, my penny worth is a medium to heavy weight bullet (high S.D.)in a medium bore diameter bullet (temporary and permanent wound cavitation and striking force) travelling at a typical medium bore medium to high velocity.

This approach made the reputations of cartridges like the 8x64S, .318 Westley Richards, 9.3x62, .404 Jeffrey, 450/400. And also the .30-06, .35 Whelan and the old 45/70.

I think a 250 - 286 grain bullet in 9.3mm, a 250 grain in .35 would be effective and more 'shootable' in a rifle you carry all day. Any more modern cartridge which produces ballistics close to this performance is good.

The 9.3x62 made itself an enviable reputation amongst Eastern and Southern African farmers working the scrub jungle / plains. The 450/400 made its' reputation in similar scrub in Africa and the forests / jungles of India and Burma.

The loaded one in my hand!!!!!

I would use my 416 with a 400gr bullet. I would shoot him or her threw the Heart or real close to it.

Before I left on this hunting trip I would have practiced shooting from my hip. Not that I would have to but just in case.

The 458, .500 jeffery, 505 gibbs, 460 weatherby, any of the 600's or above do you no good if you can't call the shot under any condition. If the above is correct you would be better off with a DAVID slingshot and a nice round stone using it bent over kissing your a-- goodbye, cause it's all over.

But what if you can and do regularly call the shot , with these calibers ..???

gumboot458---then I would cover the bet, weighted to the shooter.

The simple fact is that most people , Hunters whether native Alaskan or transplant , can,t shoot worth a hoot regardless of the caliber .....
If all a person spend their time with is a small bore because they think they can,t shoot a large caliber ....Then that is their experience ....When the range is measured in just a few short feet and 20 mph or more the precision of your shooting will probably not be what you would want it to be .....When your adrenalin goes wild and you get tunnel vision , and things go to slow motion lots of lots of power are what work ...........All who say that isn,t correct have never been in that situation ......

Comprehending the potential for everything going wrong is a very good motivator to PRACTICE , PRACTICE , PRACTICE ......

Anything is better than nothing , even a 22 . But experiences by everyone has shown that the Marlin Guide gun and rifles like the 375 Ruger Alaskan are execellent choice .... Bigger is definately better tho ....

Remember dangerous game is only dangerous whin it can touch you ... Other than a spitting Cobra , there arn,t many of them in Alaska .

Most I can handle comfortably is .416 or .404 with 400gr bullets. Stepping up to a .458 and 500gr bullets is asking a bit much, it's outside of my comfort zone even though I can shoot them. Give me any of the .416's except the Weatherby and some pre-hunt practice and I'd be good to go.

But I'd probably carry a .338 Win or .358 Norma if I had one, or even a .375.

.....IMO .. The 458.s should shoot a 300-400 gr bullet Mono metal or Super premium ....It so totally sucks that Barnes dropped the 400 gr X bullet from their line ....My best 458 Win mag load ,so far is a 300 gr X bullet @ 2700 fps .....But the 350 TSX @ 2500 and the 400 gr KBC @ 2400 fps are great also ......A 500 gr bullet is best for , I,m not sure what ???? .. I hope to wack a bear soon with the 300 gr Hawk .035 sptz from my 416 Rem mag which is going 2900 fps muzzle velocity ...I,ll have 300 gr x,s in the mag in case things don,t work well .....That duplicates the load that Master Guide Andy Runyon liked for his fast 40s ......
I sure did like that 400 gr X bullet in .458 tho .....79.5 gr AAC 2230 and a 215 primer were a perfect load for all my 458s

gumboat,

do you really think that a 300 grain barnes x at 3100 FPS is better than a 500 grainer at 2700 FPS on bears?? (from a .460wby)
//OK

In the 70's and early 80's the rifle the Forrestry folks of Alaska used was a short barreled Sako in 375HH. Believe it was something on the order of 18-20" in length and never heard what bullet/load they were using. Supposedly out of a group of three to four people in the team, one had the rifle for proetction/defense from the bears. Whether this was true or not, do not know for sure but that was a common story told???
Attended the APHA meetings in Anchorage from time to time and the use of calibers such as the 458Win Mag, 460 Wby, etc. was discouraged for the recovery from recoil lengthy and was also told that if the shot was taken regardless of caliber less than 15 yards away in a charge, you were in trouble. Killed brown, grizzly, and fair share of blacks with 375HH or '06 and never had the pleasure of dealing with a charge and I do not feel that I missed a thing. Always preferred some yardage between me and the bear. (I remembered the 15 yard rule)

Yes I really think a 300 gr XFB or 315 gr GSC HV at that speed would be better because there is so much extra speed that if you arn,t stupid you can load it to 2900 fps and still have gobs of power and the recoil is minimal compared to the generally unattainable 500 gr bullet @ 2700 fps ....If I had to use a 500 gr bullet in a 460 whby it would be @ 2400 fps or so ....
Dman ,,, you were given bad info by someone who was unknowing at the APHA meetings ....The USFS requires all personell who work in the woods to Qualify with the 375 H&H .. usually a collection of different makes and models .....Girls included !!!! In fact the test is ; the shooter starts with the rifle slung and the chamber empty ...at the buzzer the shooter must cycle the action and hit the moveing target in the kill zone 3 times in 10 seconds ........ They don,t pass , they don,t work in the woods and don,t advance to the high paying useless govvernment employee ranks ................
That means left eye and handed shooters must operate a right hand bolt rifle ............
Try that drill , see if you can shoot as well as some liberal college democrate chick ....
You shoot a brown bear 15 yards away around here and you are likely to get thrown in the crowbar hotel .........How do you know a bear won,t stop at 20 feet ...........The Troopers take a pretty dim view on wily nily shooting bears ........Besides you may not be able to see or hear a bear until it is 5 yards away ......What are you going to do then ????????? With your little deer rifle ??

Besides you may not be able to see or hear a bear until it is 5 yards away ......What are you going to do then ????????? With your little deer rifle ??

Same thing you would do with a bazooka.... become bear poop. A moving bear at 5yds = 15ft in your direction with mayhem on its mind will begin digesting you before the safety ever comes off.
I think that most of the people I have talked to about shooting a "charging" bear were shooting at a distance that the brown hats might take exception to as a "need" to shoot. I have heard people talk about shooting a charging bear at 75yds and more.....
A bear headed in your direction at 15ft will get to you unless you have already pulled the trigger and the shot broke something of substance, read that, brain or high spine.
Shooting skill aside, a bullet that will shoot a deeper hole in heavy muscle and bone gives the shooter an advantage over one that doesn't.
Back to the basics, whatever caliber you are carrying when the bear shows up is your bear rifle. I prefer wide bullets.

.......A friend stopped by today and showed me a 430 gr bullet he killed a bear with here in the Hoonah area ....It was a LFN gas check design factory loaded Buffalo Bore 45/70 ammo ..the bear was facing him about 20 feet away ..

The bullet entered just under the nose and stopped under the hide near its anus ....the bear was just about an 8 foot bear ......It smashed a bunch of bones on its way thru the bear the nose was smashed out a bit and the gas check was gone but other wise it still weighed around 400 gr.
The bear died immediately .....

For the record, all 3 guides on our hunt to SE Alaska used a 458. 2 had scopes, one had a a holo sight.
I had the chance to shoot these big un's..
What a gun

Jamie

Since I never know when a bear will show up I just use bear rifles for everything ,,,

.......It gets kindof boring because they work so well on all the smaller game ......
,,,,,The biggest trick is being able to use them well ......Once you get to be friends with them you wonder what people are squalling about......

Either my 375 H&H or this ...



Use enough gun,

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
.......A friend stopped by today and showed me a 430 gr bullet he killed a bear with here in the Hoonah area ....It was a LFN gas check design factory loaded Buffalo Bore 45/70 ammo ..the bear was facing him about 20 feet away ..

The bullet entered just under the nose and stopped under the hide near its anus ....the bear was just about an 8 foot bear ......It smashed a bunch of bones on its way thru the bear the nose was smashed out a bit and the gas check was gone but other wise it still weighed around 400 gr.
The bear died immediately .....

I worked on a boat just north of Hoonah (XIP) when there were still a few salmon to be caught. No magazines in Hoonah, too out of date by the time the barge gets there to be put on sale. Pretty place. Remember seeing sea otters there.

I have never hunted any bear and am biased by the weapons I have shot and owned. I reckon a 458 Lott would be nice if the shooter could handle it. Mine is heavy and I can't shoot it with a hangover. I shoot it fairly regularly, but it still handles like a trash truck compared to my 350 remington magnum. I really like the 350 because you can visualize your follow up shot. The Lott is like a being in a car wreck, all you can think about is what is at hand when you are pulling the trigger.

........ The Lott can be made alot more user friendly with lighter bullets at a more moderate velocity ..Say a 400 gr bullet @ 2350-2400 ...
It will still hit like a ton of bricks ....
Trust me , when a bear has you lined up and is comeing , fear of recoil is gone , and your ability to handle it becomes super human ish ....I mean , look at the alternative ....

The medium bores , 338-375 are nice but @ 15 feet ,you pretty much have one shot and no time to pound that bear ....

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
.....IMO .. The 458.s should shoot a 300-400 gr bullet Mono metal or Super premium ....It so totally sucks that Barnes dropped the 400 gr X bullet from their line ....My best 458 Win mag load ,so far is a 300 gr X bullet @ 2700 fps .....But the 350 TSX @ 2500 and the 400 gr KBC @ 2400 fps are great also ......A 500 gr bullet is best for , I,m not sure what ???? .. I hope to wack a bear soon with the 300 gr Hawk .035 sptz from my 416 Rem mag which is going 2900 fps muzzle velocity ...I,ll have 300 gr x,s in the mag in case things don,t work well .....That duplicates the load that Master Guide Andy Runyon liked for his fast 40s ......
I sure did like that 400 gr X bullet in .458 tho .....79.5 gr AAC 2230 and a 215 primer were a perfect load for all my 458s

gumboot458 you mention the Hawk bullet. What has your experince been with those in various calibers? I have some of the .040 jacket 400gr .458 for my .45-70. I've got those loaded to ~1650fps MV.
Have yet to shoot a bear (or anything else) with 'em.

No I havn,t killed anything with them .....That load sounds like it would work well but I have no experience with them yet .

quote:

Originally posted by 390ish:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
.......A friend stopped by today and showed me a 430 gr bullet he killed a bear with here in the Hoonah area ....It was a LFN gas check design factory loaded Buffalo Bore 45/70 ammo ..the bear was facing him about 20 feet away ..

The bullet entered just under the nose and stopped under the hide near its anus ....the bear was just about an 8 foot bear ......It smashed a bunch of bones on its way thru the bear the nose was smashed out a bit and the gas check was gone but other wise it still weighed around 400 gr.
The bear died immediately .....

I worked on a boat just north of Hoonah (XIP) when there were still a few salmon to be caught. Pretty place. Remember seeing sea otters there.

I have never hunted any bear and am biased by the weapons I have shot and owned. I reckon a 458 Lott would be nice if the shooter could handle it. Mine is heavy and I can't shoot it with a hangover. I shoot it fairly regularly, but it still handles like a trash truck compared to my 350 remington magnum. I really like the 350 because you can visualize your follow up shot. The Lott is like a being in a car wreck, all you can think about is what is at hand when you are pulling the trigger.

Those Buffalo Bore bullets are so hard they act like a solid, so penetration is gonna happen. I would prefer a good expanding bullet, but Buffalo Bore is probably the best for the 45-70.

I hear you 390ish about the Lott or any of the big CZs, they do remind one of a garbage truck, and what's the point of loading them down so they are managable? Just use a rifle that handles well and is easy to carry, that has enough thump.

A light, quick and handy 458 WM kicks pretty hard with full power loads, but loaded to the ballistics of the Buffalo Bore 45-70 ammo, I think it's a far better choice than the 45-70.
The 400gr Swift bullet comes to mind, and the Barnes too.

IMO, the 350 Rem Mag is a great choice -- but -- the slight problem -- if really a problem -- is the twist rate, as I remember 16", and the lack of good factory 250gr+ loads. So you would need to use handloads, and see if the 250 gr bullets will shoot well.

There are many good choices. I just made one myself. I recently moved way North, and left all my guns behind in storage. For general hunting, I had my gunsmith send me a stainless Ruger 308 he had been working on. The local gunshop had a stainless Ruger 77 in 338 WM, and the darn thing was priced low, but that wasn't enough to cause me to buy it. The things that convinced me was it had a chrisp trigger, one of the few good factory triggers I've seen on a Ruger. And the action is smooth, and it feeds and ejects perfectly. It has a synthetic stock, ugly but entirely functional. So, it's a bear rifle for under $500, not counting the scope. And I don't have to do a thing to it but take it hunting. And it's stainless/synthetic, so I don't have to worry about hauling it around in the boat or on a four-wheeler.

I plan on putting a aimpoint red dot scope on it, mounted on the front of the receiver with a Warne 30mm ring.

I don't have to worry about twist rates, or factory ammo either.

By the way, I've got a custom made stainless Ruger 77, in 450 Marlin for sale. It started as a 350 Rem Mag, but now has a 20" stainless Pac-Nor barrel, 20" twist rate, no sights, spec tech trigger, Hogue full bed stock, and brass and dies -- if anyone is interested PM me.

Regards,
KB

Whatever I had in my hand would have to do. However, when in bear country, I tend to carry at least a .338 caliber.

Kabluewy

I had the pleasure of a caribou hunt based out of Kotzebue last fall.

Came back from the range after shooting some 400 grainers (or are they 405) for the 458 Lott. I had bought a bunch of the remington bullets for cheap about two years ago. Used about 80.5 grains of H335. Had a very similar point of impact to my 500 grain full house loads. Inch high and left. Did not take my chronograph. Today was the first time I have fired that 458 Lott off the bench without cutting my nose.

Marlin 1895 Cowboy .45-70 with Garrett's 540 gr. hardcast load. With 9 in the magazine and one in the chamber, there's 5400 grains of penetrating power. The recoil is moderate and the followups are fast. Shoot him ten times and you'll get ten exit wounds. Whether you love or hate the heavy loaded .45-70, it is a near perfect stopper of the big cats and bears. I am having a .500 A2 built but would still prefer a big bore lever with full length magazine for the big bears & cats. Maybe a .50 AK levergun?

A Remington 7600 rechambered to .375 or .411 Hawk with a RELIABLE 10 shot clip would be good too...with good bullets.

If the bear charged inside of 10 yards I would prefer my 4" S&W 500 (500 gr. Corbons) or Ruger Alaskan .44 (330 Garretts or 340 Buffalo Bore HC) because I might have to shoot the bear while he was on top of me!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 390ish:
Came back from the range after shooting some 400 grainers (or are they 405) for the 458 Lott. I had bought a bunch of the remington bullets for cheap about two years ago. Used about 80.5 grains of H335. Had a very similar point of impact to my 500 grain full house loads. Inch high and left. Did not take my chronograph. Today was the first time I have fired that 458 Lott off the bench without cutting my nose.

I would be interested to know the of velocity were you getting with those 405gr bullets out of the Lott.

Three years ago I hit a big bear with a 400gr Speer, at close range. Muzzle velocity was about 1900 fps (I Chrony'd those loads). I forget the powder and don't have my data with me here at "work". I hit that bear 3 times and could not find a single intact bullet. There were no exit holes and the bottom of each wound channel had nothing but shrapnel; lead and jacket material.

Those Speer bullets disintegrated! There was only shards of lead left and bits and pieces of the jacket. What I could find of the jacket had turned inside out.

That Speer is a lightly built bullet that was designed for "stock", factory .45-70 ballistics/velocities. I expect if it were fired at 1300 fps MV, like it was intended, it might hold together pretty well, but you step up the velocity like I did and it doesn't work too good.

Now for the .458 cal 405gr Remington, I suspect the same would hold true.

So if you are going to fire that from a .458 Lott at 2,000fps or more, I would be careful what I shot with it, because I doubt it will hold together at those speeds.

Higher velocity is not the answer with those .458 bullets, that are designed for .45-70's. I think hard cast bullets at moderate speed would be great, but I've never played with casting bullets.

Myself, as I have stated, I went to a 400gr Hawk bullet. Hawk makes those bullets in various jacket thicknesses. Mine are the .040 jacket and after learning from the results of the Speer at 1900fps, I load the Hawk to 1650fps MV.

From shooting the Hawk into a clay bank at point-blank distance and from 100 yards, I consider it to be a much superior bullet to the Speer. Because I reduced the velocity I think it should hold together pretty good, but I haven't killed anything with it yet.

FWIW I have to .45-70's. One is the M-1895GS and the other is the M-1895XLR. I prefer the XLR. Much nicer recoil characteristics and it's a handy rifle to carry.
If you were in really heavy alders on a brown bear stream the 18.5" barrel of the M-1895GS would probably be the way to go, otherwise I don't think it has any advantage over the M-1895XLR.

Demonical, I am considering a M1895XLR too. I wish they would make one with a 22" barrel and full length tube.

I REALLY would like an 1895XLR like I described.......but in .50 AK and NOT for $2000 either! A weather-proof .50 AK with a full length 7 shot magazine would be perfect to me. It would still be handy but still have plenty of firepower. I don't understand why they cut the magazines short on their rifles(except Cowboy models)...... especially their Guide Guns. I mean, why would you purposly cut the magazine off of your big bore stopping rifles that are most in need of firepower????

I love my Marlins but they should leave the mags at full length. They don't weigh that much. Full length mags look better too, IMO.

Well, a brown bear bear charge huh....my 35 G&H , 9.3x62, 338 Imperial, 360 Imperial, 45/70 or 450 G&A.....

I may just bob my Ruger 458 off @ 18 " Do some work on it and get the weight down to 7 lbs ... That would be a nice little rifle ...I would probably still get 2650 fps from a 300 gr Barnes Xfb or 315 gr GSC HV .....

gb458, now that sounds like a good all around BEAR rifle to me

I think the 12 ga. shotgun is the most over rated stopper in the history of "gundom". I have seen it fail on deer many times or at least take a long time to kill them..

I guess if I was forced to pick a brown bear rifle it would be the .338 or 375 as about as good as it gets for long or short shots. but I still believe the 06 is a fully capable Bear and African Lion caliber.

What do you think of these? http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=712244

A lot of people haul these around in their Rem 870s or the Benelli Nova, but I've only met one guy who said he actually shot a bear with one of these Brenneke Slugs. He said he shot a moose too. Naturally, according to him, both the bear and the moose went down quickly - different times and places though - I assume.

The specs are impressive - up close - but fall off quickly. Judging from the kick, they have something going for them.

I'm not advocating them, you understand, I'm just asking your opinion. I made my choice already - I usually haul around at least a 338, and sometimes bigger calibers, if handy.

There's also these dixie slugs: http://www.dixieslugs.com/index.html

I remember seeing somewhere some sabbotted slugs that were hour glass shaped, about 500 grs,can't remember how fast, but they were hard lead, for penetration rather than quick opening.

KB

The best 12ga penetrators are the old BRI sabot slugs that weighed an ounce and were 50 cal diameter. They were hard and wouldn't expand but shot deep holes. The common style 12ga slug of the "Foster" style has a very hollow base with thin skirts. These in water tests have a tendency to look like lead washers complete with a hole in the middle. They make a big splat but don't really penetrate well. I would still use one instead of buckshot on a bear, "IF" thats all I had. The full diameter "solid" style 12ga slugs, like the Brenneke, are far superior to the Foster style slugs.

Seems like Macifej ought to be able to make a 12 ge slug that would work ....I mean with all the 12 ga FH technology...............

Course then all those hillbilly shiners would complain about the kick ..

The way I spell you would think I was one of those hillbillies

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
The rifle you don't want is the one that's leaning against a tree 50 feet away while you're fishing ... When you hear that grizzly sniff so loud and turn around and it's closer to you than your rifle!

Time for a swim through the rapids ... true story ... Older and wiser now.

Chuck

Funny Stuff! At least the water cleaned the mess in your trousers some!

quote:

Originally posted by .429:
The best 12ga penetrators are the old BRI sabot slugs that weighed an ounce and were 50 cal diameter. They were hard and wouldn't expand but shot deep holes. The common style 12ga slug of the "Foster" style has a very hollow base with thin skirts. These in water tests have a tendency to look like lead washers complete with a hole in the middle. They make a big splat but don't really penetrate well. I would still use one instead of buckshot on a bear, "IF" thats all I had. The full diameter "solid" style 12ga slugs, like the Brenneke, are far superior to the Foster style slugs.

Ever tried the Dixie Slugs Terminator slug? It's hardcast and 730 grains.....full .730" diameter to boot. They are awesome!!

....kick like hell too!!!

Haven't tried the Dixie's, but 570gr round balls while not a high SD will, at close range, still carry a lot of momentum and make big holes.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

I think it was Craig Boddington who said "the best rifle to have in the case of a charge is the one your carrying".

Not to hijack this thread, but to all of you who hunt and live in Brown bear country how often do rogue bears REALLY charge hunters?

Im not talking about wounded bears either!

It seems that every thread on Alaska hunting gets sidetracked by this topic.

Thanks, KC

quote:

..........................................................................................It kind of gets blown out of proportion because there are so many variables involved with brown bears ,,being outdoors in Alaska ........And all the conditions involved in encountering them ............................If you haven,t spent alot of time in the great outdoors with animals who don,t necessarily think you are something to be feared ,,its hard to take the time to describe what its like , only to be called a liar by someone who will never even remotely be in the area let alone in the situations that caused a mauling or death ........Off the top of my head I know 8 people who have been bit,,, clawed or seriously mauled by brown bear ............And I know of at least 10 more , and thats just on the A.B.C. Islands .................I don,t think Rouge is the right term for bears that maul and kill ,,,,,,,,,It,s a case of , they had the ability to do it , no one stopped them from doing it ,,so the bears did the mauling and eating ect ....................How many people do I know who have had to kill chargeing brown bears ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Dozens ........the bear chose to do something but wasn,t allowed to ............You just have no idea how many of these things live here .......Ya know the saying about Cape Buffalo [ they look at you like you owe them money ] Brown bear will look at you and think about what they want to do with you .........If you are not well armed they have all the abilities ,,you have NONE ............

Gentlemen, I have hunted Alaska on a yearly basis for about twenty years, and where I hunt, I only use one rifle, a Whitworth African Express rifle chambered for 375 H&H. This rifle has taken Moose, Black Bear, Caribou, wolf, and has never failed me, regardless of rain snow, or freezing rain. It is in a synthetic stock, and is scoped in QD rings and bases, and has good Iron sights to back up the scope! I use only 300 gr bullets for everything, and have never found distance to be a factor in being able to hit what I shoot at, or fall short on power, for HUNTING!

The reason for the 375 H&H is because I shoot this rifle a lot,and can use it in my sleep. Top that off with the area where we hunt is just chock full of big Brown Bear durring September's rainy hunting season.

The reason there are so many bear there is because we are about 50 miles south west of Illiamna, and due west of Katmai Ntnl Park. In September, the bears are headed back to the hills inland, from the park where they have been used to being around people, and are cheeky bastards. They are used to people giveing way if they want something, so they tend to walk right into your camp and take what they want.

As I said I hunt with the 375H&H rifle, but in camp I always have my 470NE double rifle, and carry a 41 mag pistol on me at all times. so, as said above, the best firearm for stopping a charge is the one you have in your hands at the time, but I intend haveing the right one in my hands at all times, and if by chance cought away from one of my rifles, the pistol, though not the best choice for such animals, is far better than a prayer, and I have it no matter where I am after leaving the bush plane.

For hunting brown bear about anything will do within reason, but hunting, and stopping a mad brown bear are two intirely different things. For stopping a charge, the bigest rifle you can shoot well is the perfect thing to have in your hands on that occasion!