Hi Guys
This seems to be the place to ask questions about big bore handguns.

I have acquired a 44 Mag SRH with a 7,5" barrel.

I want to achieve maximum penetration with the gun. Recoil be damned, I shoot a 458 Lott rifle so if I were to turn to the hand gun it would be to save my life when all else has failed etc.

What solid and max load have you used in these and what were the results in penetration and on what game.

Looking forward to hearing from you
Ian

I shoot a lee 315gr WFN at 1280 fps give's very good penetration the one black bear I seen shot with it gave about 4 foot front of chest to rear ham.

The several hogs I shot with them also very good penetration in one side out the other.

Thanks for the help.
4 feet is good penetration.
Any indication of reduction in penetration on hitting heavy bone etc?

Any time you hit harder and more stuff you going to some reduction.

Most people here think a heavy for caliber hard cast or the punch bullets give you all you want in a handgun.

Go to the hand gun forum and you will find all kinds of threads on handgun bullets and penetration.

I guess I should answer here since I carry a .44 mag for bear protection every day from may till oct.
My load is a 330 gr. wfn that I hard cast from wheel weight. my load is no where near the top end of any of my Ruger revolvers. I shoot 22 grn H110 behind the bullet. That is an accuracy load that I like because with the scope on my redhawk I have gotten groups under 4 inches at 100 yards.
If you can find a good heavy hard cast bullet and load it with H110 or 296 it's hard to go wrong.
I'm not sure what you might come up against over there but in my situation in the event that I need to use the revolver on a bear the thing that will be more important than how hot the load is will be good shot placement. (head)
No revolver will stop a bear charge with a body shot like a big rifle so keep that in mind while pre planning how you will deal with whatever bad situation comes up.
I would think the .44 would work well on a leopard, I shot a mountain lion with a 240 gr fmj that was lights out with one shot.

Thanks for the Help AK

While I will probably try and kill a few pigs with it the most likely use of the 44 will be when something gets hold of me or a client and I cannot use a long gun.
In this situation I would be firing from under whatever was chewing on or goring me and try to hit vitals and or spine in the hope of stopping the goring/chewing. Will be point blank and needs to penetrate the depth of a buff chest.

If there is space between me and the target I only ever aim for the brain and that goes for long guns too. I dont believe there is any form of shock effect that can be delivered by a projectile that does not in some way hit the CNS so it would come down to accuracy under 10 yards as that is as far as I start shooting from in a charge or danger situation.

Your welcome
You'll have fun with that redhawk on the pigs the .44 works well on them. You might get addicted to hunting with the revolver. Although my recolection is that I never shot anything in South Africa that wasn't at least 250 yards away. That would be quite a challange though.

i think the 44 is going to be a keeper.

With regards to hunting ranges in SA I ery seldom have clients shoot over 100 yards. With pigs its mostly around the 3-10 yard mark and with a bayed pig we end up putting the barrel against them.

You got any plans to come out to SA again some day?

Look up Garrettcartridges.com He produces different loads for the .44 Mag with specifics. Hopefully it will help you. Also look up Diamond D holsters out of Alaska specifically the cross chest harness. If it was me I would shorten the barrel 2-3 inches.

I too carry heavy, hard cast loads in my S&W Mtn Gun and when you carry any handgun for protection, this should be your intended target.

Nice picture of a skull big canines

The Redhawk, S&W Mountain gun, the Blackhawk are all great guns. They are also heavy. The gun you don't have is the one you will need.

For walking or even on a horse, weight matters. There is really nothing better (in a 44 magnum) than the S&W 329.

It weighs a mere 26 ounces empty. Stoke it with 300 gr big metplat hardcasts and max loads of H110, fired by a magnum primer. Forget the wood grips, pretty but useless.

Either the supplied Hogue or the Crimsontrace laser grips I have will soak up a bit of the recoil but it's still a handful. Usually carry mine in an El Paso tanker holster and it also has a lanyard on it to ensure retention.

It kicks like he double l but I doubt that would be noticed in a confrontation with a bear.

On the bright side, you can shoot it all day with 44 Russian level target loads and you won't wear it out and there's not much on it liable to rust.

Also a "useful" concealed carry revolver if you are wearing enough to keep it out of sight.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I too carry heavy, hard cast loads in my S&W Mtn Gun and when you carry any handgun for protection, this should be your intended target.

Whats yours and AKshootersthoughts on the .44 as opposed to the heavier cart's like the .454 or 460? I don't own anything heavier than a .44 myself but I was wondering what you two's thoughts were on stopping at the .44 in size?

Larger and/or more powerful cartridges and light weight handguns have to face the unfortunate issue of heavier recoil; which reduces the chance of a quick recovery and any quick additional chance for hits, in case you happen to miss your first shot due to being under a bit of stress.

ONLY HITS COUNT AND YOU CAN NOT USE A BIG ENOUGH GUN, OR SHOOT FAST ENOUGH, TO OVERCOME THAT !
a direct hit from a .357 beats a close miss from a 454 Casull or 475 Linebaugh.

In fact I carried a 357 with 180 gr Norma FMJ bullets for over a decade until I gave it to my daughter, and I still pack one on many days. i know from experience that they will shoot all the way through the skull of a big bear.

quote:

ONLY HITS COUNT AND YOU CAN NOT USE A BIG ENOUGH GUN, OR SHOOT FAST ENOUGH, TO OVERCOME THAT ! a direct hit from a .357 beats a close miss from a 454 Casull or 475 Linebaugh.

+1
I always wonder if one should carry loads with less recoil so one can have better follow up shots. Loads that give higher recoil but more power and follow up shots are not as fast.

Shooting stiff loads out of a 500 smith double action is very doable but follow up shots are slow.

Shooting 315grs at 1280fps out of my 44s are better but are a lot slower on follow up shots with 250s at 1100 fps.

I developed a load of 315s at 1000 for my Taurus tracker 44 with the ports not to bad for follow up shots.

A hard cast 165swc out of a 357 is the fastest or my 41 tracker with 215gr swc at 1040fps. It will shoot through a 400lb black bears head no problem side to side.

Any of them beats ones hands or a sharp stick.

I know that when it comes down to it no matter what I am carrying. I'll take the best shot and keep on shooting until I can't any more.

I would agree on the basis that most folks who tote around a large bore handgun for bear defense will do better with lighter loads, just as most can shoot a 30-06 better than a 458 WinMag.

However those few who have shot big bore handguns with heavy loads for decades ( I "wore out" an M 29 44 magnum, that S&W kindly rebuilt and burned countless rounds of 45 acp hardball at taxpayer expense on USAF pistol teams) the big gun is not to be ignored.

As Phil correctly observes a 30-06 will kill a Brown Bear but his nasty looking Mauser "fight ender" is a 458.
WinMag as he can shoot it well.

So, I'll modify my suggestion to say the 329 is the right 44 magnum for an experienced handgun shooter.

There was a time in Alaska where people asked if a 44 was too big as the 357 mag had been ruling the roost. A 44 can do it all with the right bullet and a well placed shot. I have shot the 454 Casull a bit and the S&W 460 a little and none of the S&W 500.

They are all very different regarding horsepower. I could say that the 44 is enough for close work and not feel under gunned. Sometimes I carry a 44 and others a 10 mm. Sometimes...my wife will kill me over this, I just take my bow and no pistol. That was the one time I would have felt good with Any center fire pistol in my hand. Lake Clark has some large bears that will get your attention!

Matt

I have a Freedon Arms .454. I really like it and I think it is the king of big bore revolvers for various reasons.
Having said that I still choose the .44 on most days. I won't say there is a good reason for that I just do.
everything said here so far has been good and pritty much spot on. There are a lot of variables not yet mentioned that do warrent a little considration.
I liked Phils comments on controability and quick follow up shots. That is very important but caliber and weight of the revover are only part of the equation.
I find that barrel length also plays a huge roll in how controlable the recoil of your revolver is.
My first F.A. .454 had a 4&3/4" barrel. That thing would rotate in my hand and then direct the recoil back towards my face. It would bend my elbows and it took a lot to regain a proper shooting stance after a shot. I also had the same problem with a S&W .44 that only had a 3" barrel. Based on my expieriances with these I can say that the Ruger .454 Alaskan with it 3" barrel is something I have no use for. My current .454 has a 6" barrel and the difference that 1&1/4" makes is night and day better. I have shot the S&W Mountain gun like Phils quite a bit and they are fairly controlable but I would rate them on the top end of the scale. My 5&1/2 Super Blackhawk was perfection untill some ass stole it out of my truck last summer. Thats the one in the photo's above before I customised it with a Bisley grip frame and belt Mountain base pin.
I have shot all of the big bores out there encluding all the Lineboughs (475, 500) as well as the 500 S&W etc. Some of these revolvers are so big that I see them as only missing a buttstock. At some point you just say the heck with it and carry a rifle. I draw the line somewhere long before I get to the X frame S&W.
All in all the 7&1/2 " Redhawk mentioned originally in the post has all the earmarks of being just right. Yes it can easily be said that 7&1/2 is a bit long butt as someone else mentioned here the Diamond D holster makes even that length compfortable to carry. Just today I carryied a 7&1/2" Super Blackhawk in a Diamond D and barely felt it.

I forgot to respond to the question about my return to Africa.
Yes I am coming back. don't know when but it will happen. First I need to get one more double rifle for the trip because I have this idea in my head that a double is the proper way to hunt buff on the dark continant.

quote:

All in all the 7&1/2 " Redhawk mentioned originally in the post has all the earmarks of being just right. Yes it can easily be said that 7&1/2 is a bit long butt

Having owned 2.5 to 7.5 357s 41s and 44s double action and single actions.

I'll take a double action with a 4 to 6 inch barrel most of the time over the others.

My 7.5 inch 44 Red hawk sure does hang nice and shoots very well my 4 inch carry's better maybe my 5.5 is a good compromise.

Having shot close to a hundred thousand rounds through double action revolvers I just couldn't cotton up to the couple of super black hawks I owned and sold them off. A single action just never seemed right to me for a self defense arm.

But then the 2 500S@W I shot a bit a 4 inch and 8@3/8 inch are just plain big and hard to bring into play fast.

Carrying a hand gun for hunting and one for self defense are two different things a good self defense gun may work for hunting. A lot hunting hand guns can work for self defense.

One or the other might not be ideal for a given situation.

Having one with you is a lot more important in a self defense situation then what kind or caliber it is.

We don't have any grizzlies any more in Colorado, I wish they'd bring some in. I carry my 1911 in 45 Super for a backup in the mountains. A 230g Bonded Golden Sabre HP at 1150 fps will handle anything I'll meet up with here. Most black bears and lions you can just shoo away here

Penetration favours the LFN over the WFN design. There is also the JDJ design in 320gr. If you really want penetraton there are the Belt Mountain punch bullets. There are various custom shops that will make monlithic designs if you feel that this is necessary over lead. My view is that 310-320gr is what my 44 liked and what seemed workable. The longer nose length of the Redhawk permits the heavier bullets up to 330gr in you really want them.

What are you hunting? I'd probably have different bullets for pigs and general game and to shoot through a buff chest. For the close encouters you may not even need to move the sights changing loads.

I'll be trying some monolithic type bullets soon, but so far in the big bores I've used lead.

That said I've never shot a really really big or dangerous animal with my handguns yet.

Thanks for all the info guys
I like that chest holster. Can you fire it without removing it from the holser or will you burn yourself with the gasses.

Hunting wise I think this gun will end up killing a lot of pigs as its handy in the thick stuff, but I want to see it kill first before I take a chance with a big boar.

there was a picture a while back of a PH carrying a 44 in a slim line hip holster made of leather that ran the length of the barrel but left the hammer open to be able to draw the gun easily. can anyone recall the picture and what holster it was?

Here is my thoughts, If its in a situation where you have to use it, the bear is going to be on you. You need something that can be shot one handed! I laugh at these guys who carry a 500/460s they cant be shot one handed. Remember you will be fighting hand to paw!

When I go to the range I always practice one handed as well as two. I've taught my sons to do the same. I only shoot a little better two handed, mainly because one handed comes naturally. When I was first taught, no one shot two handed (I'm very very old lol). Of course I will admit I totally suck with my offhand. In that case my left hand will only serve to pour BBQ sauce on myself to speed up my demise ...

I have a Ruger Alaskan in the .480 Ruger cartridge and find it much easier to control than the .454 Casull version when using it with a .454 and not the .45 Colt. The .454 has some vicious recoil for sure, however the .480 is a good bit tamer...but used with a 380-400gr hardcast seems to be a very viable option to get into action quickly and shoot one-handed in close quarters whenever necessary. No doubt, the .44 Mag when loaded properly can get the job done as well...but loaded heavy also has quite a bit of recoil. Perhaps a hardcast 310-330gr @ 1000-1100fps is the ticket.

Good to hear, I've shot the 454 Alaskan and it's the hardest recoiling, most punishing gun (either handgun or rifle) I've ever shot.

The S&W .500 is not that bad as far as weight and recoil goes. Shooting a 275 grain bullet out of it feels like less recoil than an average .44 mag round. I went hog hunting with a 500 grain hard cast carbon bullet and in the heat of the moment you dont even feel the recoil. I did load up some 420 grain punch bullets and took a bull bison with one shot in the neck. I took two more shots to make sure he was down and all rounds went clean through even the sternum through the spine shot.

I shoot a .454 Ruger Redhawk with a 6" barrel. I use barnes XTP bullets and I think they are 225 grain solid copper. Have shot all the way through a black bear (both shoulders) at 30 yards, all the way through a muledeer at 55 yards, and all the way through a Pronghorn at 112 yards. In my opinion, I think they penetrate pretty well. Also, in my opinion, the .454 in Ruger Redhawk has very manageable recoil. Not terribly much more than the .44 Mags I have shot. Just my $.02.

quote:

Originally posted by steel:
The S&W .500 is not that bad as far as weight and recoil goes. Shooting a 275 grain bullet out of it feels like less recoil than an average .44 mag round. I went hog hunting with a 500 grain hard cast carbon bullet and in the heat of the moment you dont even feel the recoil. I did load up some 420 grain punch bullets and took a bull bison with one shot in the neck. I took two more shots to make sure he was down and all rounds went clean through even the sternum through the spine shot.

I agree, I have a 6 1/2 inch 500 and with Barnes 275's or 325's the recoil is less than that from a 3 inch SW 44 mag I own. I carried a 6 1/2 inch 29 for 35 years before I got the 500. So, the 500 is not a big step up or size difference from what has become a 'habit' over the years. I'm comfortable with it.

This is good post. Everyone thats chimed in has added to this interesting conversation.
My thoughts. I always recommend, when asked, that people carry bear spray. The reason for that is if someone is asking they are most likely not a person that is prepared to defend themselves with a gun. However, I've carried a 44 mag in a shoulder holster for the past 31 years, starting with a Super Blackhawk and working my way to the sweet carrying Titanium S&W. The one thing I know for sure is that no gun will help you if you don't have it with you and the easier it is to carry the more likely you will carry.
As for recoil, the 300 gr bear loads produce quite a bit of recoil and I typically practice with 44 specials. I agree that a 357 is much more affective in the right place than any other bullet in the wrong place, in fact our absolute top gun expert in Fairbanks, who teaches all the bear defense classes carries a 357 pretty much exclusively and he has used it on bears at close range.
The bottom line, I carry a 44 because I have confidence in it. Can I get a 2nd shot off quickly enough, I really don't know, bears can be on you so fast some people haven't even been able to get the first shot off.

Try the Federal .44 mag. ammo with the Barnes 225 grain copper XTP bullet, a copy of the TSX. As mentioned above, it is a deep penetrator with an especially wide wound channel and less recoil than the super heavy HC bullets.
Put XS Big dot 24/7 sights on your defense hand gun. It makes a big difference in speed and especially in low light situations.

quote:

No doubt, the .44 Mag when loaded properly can get the job done as well...but loaded heavy also has quite a bit of recoil. Perhaps a hardcast 310-330gr @ 1000-1100fps is the ticket.

That is what I settled on for my Taurus 44 tracker 315 WFN hard cast just over a 1000.

The Same bullet out of my Red hawks is going 1180 4inch and 1280 7.5 inch. Too much of a good thing out of the light weight tracker.

I know that a 210 hard cast at 1040 out of my Ti 41 mag has no trouble going in one side and out the other side on a 400 lb black bears head. It was worked well on several smaller bears also.

Ian:
Maximum penetration?
Buy a .600.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

I too carry the 480 Ruger. Mine has been customized by Wildwest in Anchorage and carries a 4 5/8 inch barrel. As stated before, it recoils much less than the 454 and it pushes a 410 grain WFN at 1200 fps. More than adequate at nose-rubbing ranges. Jim

I've shot a couple of Alaskan moose with revolvers and the bullet used might surprise some of you. About 15 years ago I contacted Barnes and they agreed to make me a run of brass solids for my Freedom Arms 454 Casull that I was planning on taking to Zim to shoot a buff with. Since brass is lighter than lead Barnes would only make them in 260 grain size as they claimed any longer and they might not stabilize correctly.
Worked pretty good on moose. Hit a bull at about 25 yards with a quartering away shot and the bullet traveled through 4 feet of moose before stopping in the neck on the opposite side against the hide. No expansion what so ever but that was the purpose anyhow. Bullets are now long gone and I cast my own or just buy them from a good caster. Hard cast or solids are the way to go with big handgun calibers.

I do know that the Garrett 44 Mag 310gr Hammerhead load, shot out of a 4" S&W Mod 29 will shoot into the brain of a cape buffalo facing you at 3 yards.
It will go totally through the skull and down into the neck.

It will also shoot into the brain of a cow elephant at 4 yards on a side brain shot.

I have a couple 44 mags and a couple 460 S&W mags; carry the 5 inch S&W for bear protection. REason is I can reach out further and it has so much more knock down power than a 44.

I have some well pipe that is 3/8 thick steel. The 44 mags barely scratch the pipe, can hardly see the dent. The 460s blow nickel to quarter size hole through the pipe. I've posted the pipe picture in the past. No comparison between the 44 & 460.

Shooting steel is another thing all together. I have shot through steel with 223fmjs that pistol rounds wouldn't even dent.

Its fun to do but really doesn't have anything to do with the ability of a round used for game.

After one gets 20plus inch's of penetration it doesn't really matter.

Sorry, not part of the 44 mag club at this time, sold all of my 44 mag revolvers some years ago for a couple of reasons. One, they were like carrying a brick, even tried the light wt SW's and recovery time for 2nd and third shots was dismal, second reason Ruger came out with the LCR in 357mag and in my view perfection, great penetration plus light weight and can shoot very quick multiple shots with minimal recovery time using the federal hardcast bear loads.