Hey all,
I've been shooting my .338 WM a bit lately gettin ready for a Caribou/Griz hunt next year. I got a 225 TSX loaded a grain below max the plods along a 2600 FPS (22' bbl). This load will cloverleaf 5 shots at 100 yds. The faster load may get me an extra 50 fps at the loss of some accuracy so I'm stickin with the trusty but slow 2600 fps load.

Anyway, I discovered than even sighted in 3" high at 100 yds I have ~10" drop at 300 and 30" at 400. This is roughly what the ballistic calculator predicts for that load.

My question is should I bump up to 4" high at 100 which would give me 6 and 24" drop at 300 and 400 yds?

My idea is that 10 inches of drop could put the bullet out of the vitals, whereas 6" drop would not, nor would 4" high at 100 yds. I know I'm kinda splitting hairs here but I'd like your thoughts. I want to get this settled while I still have several months to practice at those ranges.

If it were me, I would be hitting dead nuts at 300. I dont mind taking long shots at bou, bear is a differant critter.

if you zero around the 300mark and know your drop, you'll be good to go.

If you want a flatter shooter just use a good 180-185gr bullet. THat will allow you to pick up a couple hundred feet per second. THe barnes 185gr bullet is a very good bullet that will easily handle moose. I'd give it a look.

Personally I like to base my max PBR to be no more than 4 inches high at any point in the trajectory. It seems most people have a tendancy to shoot over game anyway.

Hope it helps.

Along with what was said above, bears should be an inside 100 yard animal in my opinion unless it was your last day, etc. You don't want to chance wounding one, plus that's where the fun is. Even on the open tundra the only time I've ever had trouble getting close to caribou, moose, or bears is if they've been heavily shot at, and then you're not going to get within 3/4 mile anyway! (I've had days like that, where every animal you spot is looking right back even 2 miles away)

Just my 2 cents. My bear gun is sighted dead on at 100, and hasn't been used past 65. I would go with a 200-250 zero max for griz/bou so as to not inadvertently flub a close or snap shot.

Wayfaring Stranger

First I'd put your very acurate load aside for safe keeping and try a different powder to see if you can duplicate accuracy but gain significant velocity. I have not used the TSX in the 338 but I used to get over 2800 fps plus with 225 SAF's.

Second as others have said your shots are not likely to be long anyway. Once I discovered that you did not have to take long shots on caribou I just didn't. In most cases in 22 years living in AK I seldom shot anything past 200 yards and often much closer. So perhaps dead on at 200 might be the trick or just sight it 2" high at 100. Given those ranges your original load might be perfect.

Mark

My 338 is 2" high at 100 yds. Worked for me.

Maximum Point Blank Range is the rifle zero that the bullet neither rises above the vital area or drops below the vital area over your expected longest shot distance. Very important for expected long range shooting and somewhat problematic if distances are inside a hundred yards. Have you checked the ballistic calculations at the altitude you will be hunting vs your pratice altitude in East Texas? In general, I don't like going over a 3" high at 100 sight-in. For example, I'd go with a .338 RUM, .338 Lapua, .340 Weatherby, or .338/.378 Weatherby for higher velocity and stay at 3" high sight-in.

Here is the problem with being 4 inches high:

Rifles do not shoot one hole groups. So suppose your max trajectory height occurs at 180 yards. You can shoot 4 inch groups at that range. Half of your bullets are going to hit more than 4 inches high, some as high as 6 inches. Sight in for 200 yards, which will be very close to what Mark recommended. If the animal is 300 yards away and you use Leuopold VariX III or newer scopes, crank the power all the up and put the bottom plex post tip on where you want to hit. On most calibers, that is your 300 zero when sighted in a 200. Or get a trajectory compensating scope.

When I lived in Alaska I used a 400 yard zero and just placed the crosshair on the bottom of the belly for everything between 25 and 375 yards. That was in the days before laser rangefinders. Worked like champ. No need for that today.

I agree with mark you must be using the wrong powder your load should get close to 2800 225.gr. swift. worked good for me and three diferent budies all took nice bears try IMR 4350 70 gr. worked for us. spring hunts by denali are great. bears only.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Wayfaring Stranger

First I'd put your very acurate load aside for safe keeping and try a different powder to see if you can duplicate accuracy but gain significant velocity. I have not used the TSX in the 338 but I used to get over 2800 fps plus with 225 SAF's.

Second as others have said your shots are not likely to be long anyway. Once I discovered that you did not have to take long shots on caribou I just didn't. In most cases in 22 years living in AK I seldom shot anything past 200 yards and often much closer. So perhaps dead on at 200 might be the trick or just sight it 2" high at 100. Given those ranges your original load might be perfect.

Mark

.

.
. I agree 100% ....... In all my Ruger 338s , tho the 225 wern,t as accurate as the 300 gr Barnes Original @ 2500 fps or the 275 gr KBC @ 2620 fps ... They were plenty accurate to shoot deer @ 400 yards and further ... I,ve shot 2 different deer with the 225 gr factory load at those distances . One a Winchester Power Points and one the Federal which they factory loaded with the Sierra Pro Hunter .338 225 gr bullet . Both loads were basically 2" high @ 100 yards ..and both consistently chronographed @ 2780 fps with less than 30 fps variation .... they would consistently group in less than 2" @ 200 yards ...................I may over use the word consistent . But that was how the 225 gr factory ammo was in at least 8 Ruger M77 mkII stainless rifles . There is one very important thing tho . I had shot those rifles ALOT .. They were my little rifles and so they got alot of shooting ... I mean daily ..... I lived out in the brush so shooting and killing trees was what I did ...........

I too think you're using the wrong powder. With my .338 and a 225 Northfork, I get 2800 fps. This is with 73 grs. of Rldr-22.
I have always sighted in at +3" high at 100 yds. with all of my hunting rifles and never had a problem. I also shoot at 2 & 300 yds. (the farthest we have) and note the impact points. I then tape a drop card to my stock for future reference.
4" high at 100 is too much and no guide in his right mind will let you take a long shot at a grizzly.
I'd definitely re-think my load set up.
Bear in Fairbanks

Bear:

Three inches high with that load has a max trajectory of 3.4 inches. But if you did that with a .300 RUM, you would be 4 inches high at 173 yards. To me, that is too high.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Here is the problem with being 4 inches high:

Rifles do not shoot one hole groups. So suppose your max trajectory height occurs at 180 yards. You can shoot 4 inch groups at that range. Half of your bullets are going to hit more than 4 inches high, some as high as 6 inches. Sight in for 200 yards, which will be very close to what Mark recommended. If the animal is 300 yards away and you use Leuopold VariX III or newer scopes, crank the power all the up and put the bottom plex post tip on where you want to hit. On most calibers, that is your 300 zero when sighted in a 200. Or get a trajectory compensating scope.

Thanks for addressing the question. This sounds like a very good reason not to sight in that high.

So regarding changing loads:

1) The trajectory for the SAF at 2800 fps and the trajectory would be 2" and 4.5" higher at 300 and 400 yards respectively and considering what people have said about realistic hunting ranges, so is this significant improvement?

2) the Rifle shoots ~100 fps below book velocities (remember, shorter barrel), and 2800 is roughly the book velocity of the SAF over 4350, whats to make me think I could get that velocity with the MOA groups I'm getting?

I don't know if this is a big mistake but I think I'd be better off practicing those 2-300 yard shots than trying to squeeze another 50-100 fps out of the rifle.

Stranger: I agree with others here. For long range shooting, out to 400 yds, my .338WM is zeroed @ +3.40" at 100 yds which puts it at +4.40" @ 200yds, +0.75" @ 300yds @ about -17" @ 400yds. This would be OK for the caribou.

However, for the grizz you should not be taking long range shots- and, I doubt your guide would permit it. For my bear hunts on the Peninsula I was zeroed dead on at 100 yds with my .338WM. I shot, and dropped my bear, at 30 yds.

Since you will be after bear and caribou a dead on sightin of 200 yds would be a good compromise.

Its not clear if the bullet drop you quoted is from ballistics tables or from actual shooting of your rifle. If from ballistics tables it is not reliable unless you actually test fired your rifle. Tables are only guides.

I too think you can improve your load by trying different powders. Your choice of bullet is a good one. You did not state the powder used.

Here is my load: 68.0gr IMR 4350, 225gr Barnes TSX, Win LRM primer, Win brass- for chrono'd avg. 2,885fps. Using the 225gr Barnes X I did a little better, 2,923fps. This is for Mod 70 Win SS Classic with 26" barrel.

Granted your rifle has a 22' tube- but, I still think you can improve its performance. You have plenty of time until next year to work on it. JMO & worth what you paid for it. Good luck on your preparation. Half the fun is in the preparation and planning.

You might think about getting a Phase Plasma Rifle in the 40 Watt range...


Or, just do like I did... HUNT and kill 2 Monster caribou with a 450/400 3 1/4" iron sighted double rifle...

quote:

Originally posted by olguy:

Its not clear if the bullet drop you quoted is from ballistics tables or from actual shooting of your rifle. If from ballistics tables it is not reliable unless you actually test fired your rifle. Tables are only guides.

I too think you can improve your load by trying different powders. Your choice of bullet is a good one. You did not state the powder used.

Here is my load: 68.0gr IMR 4350, 225gr Barnes TSX,
.

66.5 gr IMR 4350 (1 gr below the book max)gets me 2617 av fps with a 22" bbl. Maybe, fast barrels do exist and I got a slow one?

And yes I have shot the rifle at 300 yds and thats why we're having this discussion. I was dissappointed to find my rifle that is 3" high at 100 hits dead nuts at 200 and 10" low at 300, which is almost exactly what the handloads.com calculator predicts.

Now, that same calculator predicts only an inch higher impact at 300 yds and 2" higher at 400 at 2800 fps so I'm not convinced I need to sink the $$ and time into getting there (doubt I could cause I'm already flirting with max) which is why I asked abotu sighting in for higher.

Now I wonder if I'd asked if the '06 could do it, Id be getting so much advice on the load

Wayfarer ; I wouldn,t stress about it , Practice with your load and rifle , but also with something genteler , but with the same drop . Like a bolt 223 with cheap varmint bullets @ 3000 fps or so . A long shot takes knowledge of # 1 , the range to target , and the ability to put the bullet where it needs to be .. A range finder will mostly take care of the first . Practice will help with the 2nd ...... I think the 400 yard drop for the 338 is about 24-26 " I am getting so I like the Bullet Drop , pre compensated reticles ....... They help simplify things even more !!!

Hey Stranger- Many of us like to tinker and get the max accuracy, velocity, etc out of our loads. If it was me I would go to max and experiment with seating depth. If no improvement, then try different powder, different bullets. , etc. But, that's me.

However I do not think your problem is critical. I would adjust to 3.5" and start shooting, A LOT, at the different ranges out to 400 yards. You may decrease that 10" drop at 300 yds and 30" at 400. I would not go to 4.0". I do not like + 6" at 200 yds.

Once you know where your bullet hits at those ranges, and you can consistently hit the target at those ranges, you should be in good shape, especially if you use a range finder for long shots.

Also, when practicing, try to duplicate field conditions as near as possible. Again, good luck. Wish I was preparing for another Alaska hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by olguy:

Also, when practicing, try to duplicate field conditions as near as possible. Again, good luck. Wish I was preparing for another Alaska hunt.

I WISH I could duplicate the nothern Alska Range here in East Texas...let me tell ya. That is the weakest part of my practice. I cant practice with terrain and only have about 2 more months of practicing at those temperatures. I do however, do winsprints in between shots to get my hear rate up and practice getting into position fast.

My 250 grain load for my .338 only goes about 2,700 fps mv and drops about 8" at 300 yards. I sight my rifle in for 200 yards as I like the bullet to land close to where the reticle is placed. In 45 years of Alaskan hunting my shots have averaged under 150 yards. Worrying about hold over on a grizzly bear when your in a hurry is not a good thing. So with a 200 yard zero we just point at it and press the trigger out to 200 yards. If it is further then that we strive to get closer or we settle in and and prepare for a long shot. Shooting at grizzlies past 200 yards can lead to an exciting hunt by golly.

quote:

Originally posted by Ak Guy:
...... Shooting at grizzlies past 200 yards can lead to an exciting hunt by golly.

As Sarah would say "You betcha".
Bear in Fairbanks

No. Stay at the 3" high mark no higher. It's a natural law that 3" high does no harm at close range.

The high holdover would be for bou, not griz.