On a 10 day boat based hunt is SE Alaska the owner of the main boat and also my guide, constantly nodded out while in the skiff cruising the shoreline hunting, didn't want to leave the main boat until very late in the afternoon/early evening on 8 of 10 days and would return before dark, was inconsistant about what areas within the unit he could hunt, twice screwed me out of shooting an 8 foot sow with no cubs while telling the other hunter I passed on it both times, didn't want to investigate other bears judging them too small from sometimes 2+ miles away and routinely threw the ships garbage (cans, paper dinnerware, jars, wrappers) overboard while anchored. I did not tag a bear and either did the other hunter. Should I have just bent over?

Should have researched the outfitter.After working for an outfitter in Alaska for a # of years you learn which are good outfits & which are bad.Were you Brown or Black bear hunting? Not to plug the outfitter i work for but we offer some outstanding Brown bear hunts spring & fall as well as an awesome Black bear hunt in the fall.Hope you didnt spend to much!

I was brown bear hunting and did research the outfitter. He was recommended by one of the best in the biz and his previous clients had good things to say about him.

Dennis,
Ouch, sounds like you got ripped. What you experienced is the very reason I gave up on hunting in the US and have gone to Africa.

Yep:
Go to Africa, its a guarantee you won't get screwed over there.

Perhaps you did, hard to tell from just your post.

I'm not attempting to defend the Guide, I don't know any facts in this case. But I thought I'd mention some of my thoughts...

It has been a late Spring this year. Bears were a bit behind schedule.

When I hunt bears, I hunt evenings, not mornings. But, I can understand that if your paying big bucks, you'd want to hunt all day.

Shooting sows is bad juju according to the Fish & Feather guys. Legal? Yep, but it may affect the number of bears the Guide will be allowed to hunt next year. Not really your problem though. For me, I hold out for boars, won't shoot a known sow, but I have that luxury.

I suspect the Guide was able to judge bears just fine, even at long distance. But a client wants some excitement. Nothing wrong with a few practice stalks, keeps hunters on their toes. Gives you something to talk about at night. Helps the client judge bears for themselves.

Throwing trash overboard is bad for public image, and probably illegal. There are rules, and certain areas are far enough offshore (even in the Inside Passage) were it may be legal to throw over paper trash. Plastic is never legal. A few metal cans, which will sink are not a big deal in 300 fathoms, but not so cool anchored in 20 fathoms.

Sorry you had a lousy hunt.

I understand about the late spring and that the bears might not show as much as when the weather was better. My complaint is not about the weather or the bears. It is the performance of the guide. For a few hours on a couple evenings while the other guide and his hunter were out hunting, we were sitting in the big boat looking over an area he later said was not his to hunt. In another area he said was not his, he stated if we got something there we would just say we got it in his area. Either he was attempting to drag me into something illegal, knew we would not take anything if seen, or was at minimum simply lying. NOT professional at all IMO.

Tell us the name of the outfitter. We don't want to book with this guy either.
Thanks
Dr B

What did your guide/outfitter say to you when you questioned the way he ran the business, illegal garbage dumping, etc?

Sorry he hear of your mis-advendure.

Hope your tip reflected your "service."

We were over on Admiralty from May 11-14 as residents looking for and observing bears. I was mostly enjoying the first stretch of true spring-like weather and targeting the last weekend of Blue Grouse hunting.

Where exactly did you hunt? Gambier or Pybus bays? Seymour? If his territory West side of Admiralty, you got screwed from the get-go.

We saw a total of 5 bears. One might of been a shooter but it was about 9:15 pm before we got into range. Most of the bears were coming out very late, near dark.

Saw this sow + cub on the way over:



We saw very little sign on the beaches. While up in the woods there were a few root digs and I think some bears were still coming out of their dens. We heard some growling up on the hillside from where we were hunting birds. Saw one big set (1-2 days old) in the snow that were about 6-7" wide.

The kid found this nice skull. Bear appeared to die of natural causes:



I took it over to fin, fur and feathers in Douglas and they said it was a sow, probably 12-16 years in age.

Sorry to hijack things here. So, 2 guys on your boat on a 10-day hunt and neither got a bear? I'd be more than disappointed!!!

My $25 resident tag is good into the fall. And good 'till the end of the month in Unit 1C (mainland.)

To all you down-south'ers. Please go to Afrika. We got more than enuff touristas for my liking.

MM

The outfitter is Mike Sofoulis and "Alaska Coastal Guiding". I have to admit I didn't say as much as I should have but I wasn't the only hunter on board and considered the ramifications for both myself and the other hunter if I totally pissed off the guide. Of course they blamed the weather, the bears, the south wind, the north wind etc.. and justified the garbage being thrown overboard by saying it's biodegradeable and that the cans will roll around on the bottom for a while and disappear. I threw my garbage in the garbage can and they would pull it out and throw it overboard.

We were in the Seymour Canal the entire time and I saw 22 different bears (a lot of sows and cubs), mostly at distances of several hundred yards to 2+ miles away. Neither one of us hunters shot bears although I once had my crosshairs on the big cubless sow at 80 yards undetected and he said not to shoot it as it was a sow. A couple hours later, after a somewhat heated argument, on a second attempt we beached the skiff much closer and the guide did not even try to stalk it and simply walked up to it in plain view running it off. I had my safety off fully intending to shoot it but he knowingly stepped ahead of me. In retrospect, I should have shot the running bear and blown his eardrums out but didn't. I asked why we did not repeat the first stalk and he said he didn't want his skiff high and dry as the tide was receeding. I'd have been happy to sit on the beach with my bear until high tide.

"To all you down-south'ers. Please go to Afrika. We got more than enuff touristas for my liking."

Frankly, with that type of hospitality and my experience, that's what I intend to do.

Hey Dennis, I said this kinda tongue-in-cheek.

My livlihood doesn't depend on tourists or hunters. We get something like 300,000 - 400,000 per year. It's like Disneyland from May to September here.

Not trying to scare anyone off. I'd even take you out fishing if you come again. We caught 3 nice kings this past Sat.

Personally, I think the guide(s) did the right thing by not letting you shoot sow - even w/o cubs. Were you guys anchored in Fool Inlet in a fairly big white (fiberglass) boat. We saw this boat sitting in a less-than-prime location.

I know some big ones come out of King Salmon Bay. Friend got a 9.5 footer there and said he saw a bigger one.

MM

I figured it wasn't very serious. That wan't us although we did spot a bear in the back of that inlet. We were in Bug Island, another cove in an island I can't remember the name (starts with a D. Dorn?), off the end of the big island that starts with a T when the wind changed, and ended in Pleasant Bay.

Sorry you had a bad hunt. If I were to spend over $13 grand on a hunt and not have a chance at a bear, I would be upset too. Did Mike tell you how the rest of the hunts went for him this year? Sounds like the week you went was a bust.

His first client left after 7 days and he's on his last hunt now.

That guide would have gotten a very good view of a rifle butt. There are a lot of slimy guides/outfitters in the US and Canada that are quick to take your money in return for a sight seeing trip. I just got back from SA last month and I will not book another stateside trip with any outfitter without agreeing to some kind of refund if there was no opportunity to take game. We need to bring the trophy fee concept to North America as that is the only way to put a stop to this kind of bs. So there it is folks, start to demand upfront some kind of contingency plan should there be no opportunity, whether it be cash back or a return trip at a later date at a greatly reduced cost... or find someone who will work with you. We need to show them who is paying who and when this concept gets started and rolling everyone benefits. Just look at the increased travel to African hunting destinations in the past 10 years, people are just fed up with getting ripped off.

Woody

Woody, I agree and having been to SA is probably why I'm so disapointed in my guides service. I've been on a few other hunts in the US and so far nothing compares to the service I received in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
That guide would have gotten a very good view of a rifle butt. Woody

Good way to find yourself left on the beach, wonder what the hell now.

dennis hp;

it pains me to read these types of stories and i can empathize with you as i have been there myself. the main thing now is to prevent other guys from making the same mistake.as well as for you to learn as much as possbile from the debacle as you can, to lessen the chance of it happening again in the future.

a few disjointed thoughts...

how much did you pay for the hunt? price sometimes figures in to quality of service rec'd. this is a key bit of info.

the outfitter sounds like he may have narcolepsy, have some other medical problem, be unfit to operate a vessel due to poor health, thus placing you, the other clients, himself, and other boaters at risk, as well as his captains license. at the very least he is in need of a thorough physical exam before taking out more clients. what is any prescription meds is he on? this situation needs attention before an accident strikes.

the wrappers you refer to, were they plastic that was dumped over board? or were some of the other items dumped over board plastic? as far as i know, that is a major no no and if the coast guard was there, he would get papered. as for the other garbage, it sounds like he was too close to shore to dump that either, but i was not there. that may be a problem as well. good on you for throwing your garbage in the can where it belongs. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

at a certain distance, no one can accurately tell the quality of the animal. why no close the distance for a better look? what kind of spotting scope was he using to make these decisons? sounds like he may have been a bit on the lazy side?

you and the other clients, if you are in touch with them, need to get the word out on this guy. you can due a public service here if you make the effort. post reports on the various web sites and clubs.

before booking this hunt, how many of his past unsuccessful b.b. hunters did you speak to? he can't always be 100% right? the successful guys are moe likely to say positive things about him because they were prescreened, likely to return and well, they were successful.

who was the "best in the business" that recomended him to you? have you notified that individual about the reality of this operation? since he gave the rec' can he mediate a resolution here? what did he base his recomendation on exactly? had he hunted with this guy?

i agree with b.w.. for the kind of money you are paying you should be able to stay in the field all day. if the guide does not like to be out in the field for more than a couple of hours at a time, then he is in the wrong field.

why would you hunt with a guy with little to no reputation in the industry on a hunt that was this expensive? how did you find out about him? how many if any animals does he have in the books? a respectable showing for a hard working guide? no one shoots a b.c. everytime out though. i would want to see some entries though.

muskegman's offer is not only nice, but real. i have spoken by phone with him in the past and you should take him up on his offer. i consider him to be reputable.

i hope something positive can still come out of this. sorry you had a bad hunt.

Not sure which is worse, calling the Coast Guard on my sat. phone to resque me and my 9' brownie from a desolate shoreline or spending the rest of the week with a slime ball making my vacation miserable and getting rich at my expense.

A large number of people simply "disappear" in the alaskan wilderness every year.

I'd like to think that your guide will be one of them next year.

I've often suspected that certain types of slimy individual "get helped" in their own disappearances....

AllanD

Cold Zero, This was an expensive hunt at $12,500.00 plus airfare and hotels before and after, hunting license and bear tag. My opinion is that the guy is just plain lazy. I booked thru Atcheson and Sons and called at least 8 references they gave. While not all of the references took bears, only one mentioned Mike did not like to investigate bears he deemed too small. I'm unaware of any meds he may be on. I certainly didn't see him take any.

The wrappers were candy wrappers, gum wrappers, and other small food wrappers. I did not see them throw plastic overboard. To my knowledge, the coast guard laws state nothing can be thrown overboard within 3 miles of the shore. We were anchored within 200 yards of shore every night. I read where aluminum cans can take up to 400 years to break down in the sea and they threw dozens overboard.

Surprisingly, he did not take his spotting scope with him on the skiff half the time. He used his 10 power Ziess binos and I used my 8 power Pentax.

I've spoken with the other hunter, actually he was the best part of the trip, and he's 100% with me eventhough his guide did work much harder for him. It take s a few days to get to know another person while hunting but by day 4 or 5 we were comparng notes daily and both of us had the same general conclusion; the guides lost enthusiasm well before the hunters even considered it.

I've lodged a complaint with an investigator within the Alaskan Guide Board and have sent the Coast Guard info regarding the dumping of trash. I'll also be speaking with Keith Atcheson next week when he's back from vacation to see what more we can do. I'm guessing Mikes performance and operating procedures are a surprise to him as I'd hate to believe they would book hunts for this guy knowing these kinds of things go on.

atta boy Dennis, don't allow this dirtbag get away with it as he will only do it again to someone else. Don't make any bets that Keith Atcheson is going to hear something new. These guys do not become rip offs overnight. I would make it real clear that you are seeking some restitution and it would be in his best interest to assist you in getting it.

Good job Dennis, I think you've done the correct and legal thing to do. Those suggesting violence need to get a grip on reality.

I'd really like to hear the Guides side of the story too. It's not that I doubt you, but quite often in these cases when both sides are heard, things that seemed so blatantly wrong become more understandable.

BW, feel free to email Mike if you think he'll provide , non-personal, unbiased facts like I have. I've inserted my opinion once stating I think he's lazy. The rest are facts, not perceptions, experienced by myself and the other hunter.

In reply to your previous post, I understand only hunting in the evening as that is typically the most procutive hunting period but you sure can't shoot one back at camp playing cards. Mike told me that residents shoot too many sows. After he told me what residents pay for a license and tag, I suggested the practice be made illegal for residents and asked him why then, if a resident can legally shoot a sow, does he frown on a paying client doing so. He told me it's because the pool of tags for the guides will be reduced the following year meaning one less client. Not looking for any sympathy here, but as a guy with two cancer surgeries and 6 months of chemo so far within the last 14 months, I may not even be here this time next year. I wanted a brown bear and a sow would have been just fine with me.

Hello DennisHP,
Read all of the remarks here on your failed trip to Alaska and hate to hear of such events. I lived up there for some 5 plus years and hunted a lot, moose, bear, caribou, etc. and did not need a guide, but several were friends of mine and can say they were very professional in all respects. (only flaw I detected was they tried to cheat me when playing poker!!) Noticed you reported to Guide Board and can say they certainly used to take such reports seriously. Used to attend the APHA meetings in Anchorage and always found professional ethics and practices to be stressed with the members.

Noticed several remarked about not hunting in the US anymore and going to Africa to pursue their sport. That is absolutely outstanding and wish them all well. Africa is disease infested, politics as unstable as it can get, islamic zealots everywhere, and talk about rip offs!! Only limiting factor on creative charges, fees, fines, pay offs, is ones imagination!! Americans should think quite seriously about financially supporting these various countries in Africa with their money spent on hunting trips. Long after you have left, a visit is made to the local officials and the proper folks are taken care of and their is no "trickle down economics" to the general population.
I have made my feelings about Africa known before and do not do so to offend, but have travelled from top to bottom, east to west and been in areas that whites should not visit and can gurantee you a safari for however many days or weeks is not going to show you the problems and social ills that exist there.
Some will say that large cities in the US more dangerous than Africa? Bull shit, no way, no how! Think how silly that sounds!! Central African Republic and joining areas can be about as nasty and dangerous as your imagination will permit. Seems like the French get along there more than most and the consumption of humans is not unheard of and is in fact practiced. Slavery is a common practice be it boys or girls, yes, children as well as adults. Those wishing to go to Africa and live the dream of safari are welcome to do so, but be advised.
I take it from you HP name you are a XC shooter?? Just curious for I have shot LR matches for many years now and always appreciated position shooters. HP or across the course shooting takes a lot of skill. Do hope your health issues clear up for you and know a bit about that myself, ol' ticker problems you know, but we all have to go to the "big range in the sky..." someday. Again, sorry to hear about problems in Alaska for that is not the norm and let's hope someone intercedes on your behalf.

quote:

Originally posted by DennisHP:
BW, feel free to email Mike if you think he'll provide , non-personal, unbiased facts like I have.

Sounded like a reasonable thing to do, so I just did. Not sure why you would suggest that I only do so if I think he'll provide 'non-personal, unbiased facts.' How can I guarantee such a thing?

Quite frankly all accounts, including yours, are biased and personal. You just stated some personal reasons why you were willing to settle for a sow. Something I find stange, given your stated willingness to make that illegal for residents.

Anyhow, I'm sure we'd all like to hear his comments. I asked, that's about all I can do...

BW,

I was merely suggesting that a paid guide performing the way he did would not be expected to state so. Obviously you can't guarantee anything anyone says.

IMO, if the taking of sows is legal for residents a guide should have no problem allowing a non-resident client to shoot one. If no sows are to be taken, make it illegal for all. To say that residents take too many so therefore a non-resident cannot doesn't seem right given it's legal to do so.

Not trying to mince words, but I did not say I would "settle" for a sow. I said a sow would have been fine with me.

The ADF&G is under a directive (law) to keep the Brown Bear kill at 4% (boar) and 1 1/2% (sow) of the given base population.

If the kill nears or goes over the 'red line' ADF&G (probably, usually) comes up with and emergency order to close or alter the season or harvest. Non-residents are the first user group to be restricted.

Thanks for the kind words cold zero. I do however find it strange that I am having a hard time booking my fall backpack Brown Bear offer. Since I am asking $8000 (with options) (the same as I get for a Goat hunt in the same area) hunters must think there is something wrong with the hunt !!! If I would have asked 12k it would have probably booked in a heartbeat !!!

DennisHP ... the average guided Brown Bear harvest statewide is from 40% to 60%. Several very reputable guides out of Sitka are running right at 50% this spring due to the very cold late weather action. I hear some of the Peninsula guides are even having a worse time of it this spring.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Not sure which is worse, calling the Coast Guard on my sat. phone to resque me and my 9' brownie from a desolate shoreline or spending the rest of the week with a slime ball making my vacation miserable and getting rich at my expense.

Yep, the Coast Guard is in the business of rescueing asshole hunters at $3500 an hour and denying the resource for real SAR.

Dennis,

Hunting reports are one of the great benefits of boards like this, and yours is a good one.

I hope everything works out, one way or another.

Dennishp;

i think we agree this outfitter was lazy. although, i would consider $12,5k to be in the ballpark for what these hunts go for, it really is not $12.5k when keith takes his cut out anyway. then to the outfitter it is a bargain hunt. that being said, in this case i do not think that the booking agents fee would have made a difference, the guy just seems like a bum. as for keith, he set you up with this guy and he should try to get you remuneration from the outfitter. if he is unsuccessful (likely), then he should do something for you out of his fee or give you a deal on another hunt. he needs to break a sweat here for you and take some responsiblity. i had an unsatisfactory dealing with atcheson and do not recomend guys use them. your hunt does not speak well of their judgement and recomendations. let's see what they do about it now. should be interesting, i hope.

if the guide does not have his spotting scope with him how can he judge bears 2 + miles away? sounds like he is too lazy to carry his scope. that would be like you leaving your rifle on your bunk.... a guide w/o glass is just rediculous. this is another example of his laziness.

the complaint you made is the right thing to do. if he is in the right, then no harm done, if not, then hopefully justice will be meeted out, doubtful.

you paid his fee and if a sow makes you happy, then you should take it. the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. if he does not go along with that, then he should not be taking you afield.

dennis, maybe now you have learned to do your owned birdog /research and not rely on booking agents.

b.w. when you contacted the guide,i hope you offered for him to come on here and discuss this? it is good to hear 2 sides to the story. i think he will have a hard time justifying his actions or lack thereof. it is my feeling , that he will not come on here and i will bet you lunch in anchorage at a place of your choosing in sept if i am wrong. being fair is good. however, if you have never been stung by a lousy outfitter than you will be hard pressed to empathize with dennis. dennis can only write about his side and the outfitter has the option of coming on here and doing the same. although, i feel that will be highly unlikely, he has his money and will now look for his next victim.
guys like him give the good outfitters a black eye.

driver;
i have to disagree with you on the apha. from my experience with them, which is extensive, they will do little or more likely nothing about this. they are an organziation for their dues paying members, not for guys like dennis, i and the rest of the traveling hunting community. dues paying being the operative phrase here. it is an outfitters assoc' , not a hunter assoc. i predict they will bury this and go on.

muskegex;
i call it like i see it, your welcome. you earned your rep' , by hard work and doing the right thing. others can learn from it.

Hello Cold Zero,
You could well be correct, but when I was there the group held pretty high standards(early to mid 80's) and would come down pretty hard on any outfitter giving the sport of hunting a bad name. (There is a bar in Captain Cook hotel that was often used for "settling problems...") Forget how much money it brings in each year, but substantial.
Hunting in Alaska is not as easy as some might think for there are very few times when the hunter and guide, crew, etc. drive around in a Toyota to get close to the game and only way to maintain a steady stream of hunters and their revenues is to take good care of them every way possible when they do book a hunt. However, it is hunting and not shooting we are talking about here and as mentioned earlier, it will be good to hear from the alleged offending outfitter and if he should not care to come out and explain what happened or why the hunt went sour, then he needs to be avoided. Check w/ your legal source, but do not believe there is much chance of legal action and the cost to do so would be quite high. Let's hope we hear from the outfitter.

I am pretty sure the atchesons have a clause that if you book through them and dont have a chance at your quarry they refund part of your money.

Here is an excerpt from their site

"If you fail to get a chance at legal game on a future hunt, you’ll get up to a $3,000 credit! Most clients bring home their game, but some experience "the luck of the hunt." Jack Atcheson & Sons, Inc. offers those clients a discount to try again by offering our Good Will Plan. Atchesons want to help protect your money. If you send your down payment to Atchesons, complete a hunt of normal duration and cost, hunt every day possible, yet do not kill, wound, miss or pass up at least one legal species you are licensed for (in other words, you had no chance at anything), Atchesons can give you a non-transferable discount on almost any future hunt that you book through Atchesons.

Sample: If your original hunt cost $9,000, we could give you a 1/3 discount ($3,000) to be divided over two or more future hunts you book through Atchesons.

Sample: You have a $3,000 discount credit due you. If you then booked another $9,000 hunt and wanted to use your discount, we would give you a 10% (or $900) discount - or $600 discount if you booked a $6,000 hunt."

Kind of sucks that in order to get your discount you have to book more hunts with them but it is beter then nothing.

Good Luck and sorry to hear about your bad experience.

driver;

i know the bar to which you refer and have bent the elbow there a few times. i love the bear in the lobby.

some of the biggest problems have been worked out over a bar. certainly, a better alternative for all concerned than gettting lawyers involved. things worked better in the 1980's way back then, than they do now. it was a simpler time. my experieince with the apha dates from the late 1990's on. drop me a p.m. offline. if you are who i think you may be, than i almost booked a hunt with you and quite a few of my friends have hunted with you and were fabulously successful.

bulldog563;

fine work finding the K' excerpt.

you hit the nail on the head, when you said that once you have a bad experience with someone , now you have to book more hunts with them? i would find that distasteful as well. maybe dennis could book a deer hunt with them with an outfitter of his choosing and not rely on their judgement to select the outfitter and recoup some of his money. kudos to Atcheson for having this guarantee. money back would have been better of course, but this is better than nothing. they get another 1-2 chances to make more money off dennis. if dennis' hunt does not fit the description in the guarantee than i do not know whose would.

i hope things work out for dennis.

quote:

b.w. when you contacted the guide,i hope you offered for him to come on here and discuss this?

Absolutely, I have no intention of acting as a messenger if he were to just e-mail me.

I would cut & paste his response, but only once.

DennisHP/sorry to hear you had such a hunt. I hunted SE Alaska in 1995 & got a lazy guide, as did my hunting partner. Yes, the references were glowing, which really disappointed me. Went back in 2002 with Brad Dennison & had a great experience. Also met Dale Adams, another top notch guide fron the same area. Both are out of Sitka. Would recommend them without reservation. Am going back with Brad Dennison 2007 for black bear/ chaz

quote:

Originally posted by driver:

..... and talk about rip offs!! Only limiting factor on creative charges, fees, fines, pay offs, is ones imagination!!.....

I see you're familiar with the Murkowski Administration!!

A guide should hunt twice as hard as the hunter. If one has a lazy hunter one doesn't have to hunt as hard if one as a hard charging hunter one has to work his butt off.

A guide should always be willing to go a step farther then the hunter unless it means putting them in danger.

Part of a guides job is to make the the hunter belive he got his moneys worth. If the hunter doesn't want to climb the next mountain or go out when the weather is bad that's his trouble.

But the guide should be willing too unless it places them in danger. The guide should always be saying yep lets go you never know when you might get the chance.

If a the guide isn't willing to hunt as hard or harder then his hunter you got the wrong guide.

Getting the hunter up and going and showing interist in the hunt is all part of guiding.

Saying yep over the next mountain, across the next river ,around the next bend, Lets wait untell the last mintue of shooting time is all part of getting the hunter his game.

Now if the hunter says no I don't want to go up the next mountain or cross the next river or wait the extra 20 min. Then the hunter has nothing to complain about.

Dennis, was the policy of not shooting sows discussed at time of booking and part of the contract? If it wasn't perhaps a small-claims court settlement could be pursued? I'm usually not inclined to use courts but in some cases it is certainly warranted. I'm sorry you didn't get what you paif for. When I lived in Alaska I only had one experience with an outfitter and it was totally positive, but I never used a guide.