We all got a big harr. Early this morn saw a group of mostly bigger bulls, 2-3 year olds. Subsistence season is in and they've wised up and don't stand around; they see a vehicle, they're off a runnin in cover; hard to take a good shot. Wifey didn't even shoot, I'd have been blazing away. So I gave her heck and told her if she didn't shoot at the nx group, I was taking the 308 off her, ha ha.

Few more miles down the road, another 15-20 bou dove off the road and into the brush. Little opening 75 yards, some water from creek that came in there. I told her to shoot at last 3 bulls when they went up creek bed as they were nice high ones. The bulls ducked down to get under the brush and up the creek and that's when the wifey shot. I figured she had to hit one of those bulls, so walked all the way over there to find a 4 foot antler, some bone chips, and blood. I walked up the creek, no more blood, them bou kept going. You could see where the bullet hit the antler. I walked back and told her here's your caribou. She even thought it was a good day hunting. Been a few years since I saw an antler shot off.

Most the subsistence hunters are getting their winter meat this season. That is a good thing actually. When thousands of urban hunters show up for the normal 3 day hunt this Thursday, that takes 600 caribou and the locals don't get their meat; then you have calls about stopping the hunt for the outsiders. There's enough bou for everybody if we all do it right. Too many hunts have been restricted all across Alaska. Not everybody can afford the flyins but can drive 4-5 hundred miles if they can get a decent bou.

I won't talk politics, but I hope you get some fat meat!

quote:

Originally posted by Zhurh:
We all got a big harr. Early this morn saw a group of mostly bigger bulls, 2-3 year olds. Subsistence season is in and they've wised up and don't stand around; they see a vehicle, they're off a runnin in cover; hard to take a good shot. Wifey didn't even shoot, I'd have been blazing away. So I gave her heck and told her if she didn't shoot at the nx group, I was taking the 308 off her, ha ha.

Few more miles down the road, another 15-20 bou dove off the road and into the brush. Little opening 75 yards, some water from creek that came in there. I told her to shoot at last 3 bulls when they went up creek bed as they were nice high ones. The bulls ducked down to get under the brush and up the creek and that's when the wifey shot. I figured she had to hit one of those bulls, so walked all the way over there to find a 4 foot antler, some bone chips, and blood. I walked up the creek, no more blood, them bou kept going. You could see where the bullet hit the antler. I walked back and told her here's your caribou. She even thought it was a good day hunting. Been a few years since I saw an antler shot off.

Most the subsistence hunters are getting their winter meat this season. That is a good thing actually. When thousands of urban hunters show up for the normal 3 day hunt this Thursday, that takes 600 caribou and the locals don't get their meat; then you have calls about stopping the hunt for the outsiders. There's enough bou for everybody if we all do it right. Too many hunts have been restricted all across Alaska. Not everybody can afford the flyins but can drive 4-5 hundred miles if they can get a decent bou.

Where do you live? I live in Anchorage but I've also lived in the bush and by that I don't mean a long drive.

Live near the border with Canada on the Yukon. We might have a dirt road that's open for 5 months every summer, but thats far enough out for me; get the best of both worlds and I don't have to see all the crazy fools in a hurry here and there with cell phones stuck to their heads.

I have friends that live down river 50 miles and they have it tough. You need an income, I luv the world I call home, hate the Anchorage/Urban world & lifestyle; but reality is you need some supplies from that place. You have to balance out your lifestyle, where you call home with what you can stand from the urban supply center. I have a huge garden, eat all kinds of wild meat & fish; but haven't figured out how to grow coffee yet if ya know what I mean, ha.

We've been here over a dozen years; haven't bugged back out to Anchorage like so many that come here so I figure I beat the odds and made it out here. Enjoy the hunting & lifestyle.

From what I see of things, the caribou season for all the urban hunters that do the drive this Thursday should be pretty successful. The caribou are here, nice bulls, many of the locals have already got their subsistence caribou; now just hope they all don't pick up and leave early this week. People that hunt near the gravel pit on the south side of polly summit will get their caribou.

Z,
Explain to me the need for "subsistance" caribou hunting? Do you the locals in the area hunt year around or not have jobs or what? Seems the caribou are viewed as livestock?

In the USA, I have yet to see anyone anywhere that "needed" wildgame to survive in this day and age.

I am just curious.

Subsistence is determined by rural/urban designation and also where people traditionally have harvested fish, game, ect for Most rural areas lack economic activity, no jobs, so people depend on what the land & river provides in a much bigger way than in an urban area. People with dog teams feed their dogs salmon they catch in fish nets. Locals harvest the seasonal bounty rather than buy & ship which is prohibitively expensive. Fuel is 6-8 bucks/gal; food is also much higher at local village stores. People cut expenses by using what they can get locally so they can afford other necessities from Sams. WE grow most of our vegetables, and usually we get a moose or two and a couple caribou. Wife and I have our teaching certs, have much easier than many around here, but still utilize whatever we can from the Land; good practice for hard times that might arrive someday.

In the past, there was much higher fish and game numbers in my area. Salmon are less than 10% what they were 50 years back. Moose and caribou are also way down. I believe wolf & bear depredation has it's affect. I also see all the outsiders coming in, they harvest their share also. Locals remember when you never saw outside hunters having camps at every pull off on the dirt road. You see if the locals didn't get their winter meat for whatever reason; well they ain't going to go hungry; they will just hunt 24/7 and ignore F&G regulations and they it all falls apart. They can barely keep the Indians from doing this now. Indians say, if there's a problem with moose numbers; must be White man's fault; never was like this 50 years back. When nearest LEO/game warden is 200 miles away and the road is closed; powers that be need the locals to voluntarily comply with regulations.

So that's why subsistence came about and already been to SCOTUS. Locals have priority no.1, then everybody else down the line. So it's best for everybody that locals get their fresh meat or permit hunts are closed then only the locals get to kill game. F&G does their best to balance it all out and keep the hunt areas open for everybody. Got to keep the ungulate numbers up and growing; no problems appear, everybody is happy.

I think our local F&G unit figures 100 caribou for the locals and 400-600 for outsiders; like 50,000 caribou in the herd. The wolves take an unbelievable amount. So in all GMUs our herd migrates through, maybe 5-6 thousand are harvested by man.

Don't have to rent leases and got miles upon miles of wilderness to hunt on.
Honestly,

I do not think the wife and I would starve to death if we did not have it, but even here in Texas we eat some form of harvested wild game meat 3 to 5 times a week.

Sure saves on the grocery bill.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Z,
Explain to me the need for "subsistance" caribou hunting? Do you the locals in the area hunt year around or not have jobs or what? Seems the caribou are viewed as livestock?

In the USA, I have yet to see anyone anywhere that "needed" wildgame to survive in this day and age.

I am just curious.

Dogcat
I know that you are a sincere gentleman, and Zhurh answered your question but I feel the need to add from my point of view.

You said that "in the USA" you didn't "see anyone anywhere that "needed" wildgame to survive in this day and age."

From my point of view Alaska is only "United" with the States in name. The fact is that food in Alaska far far more expensive than most of us can comprehend. Just think of how expensive it is to have beef flown in to some far flung outpost...

And as far as "not having jobs" these outlying areas simply don't have "jobs" at least not in the was we think of jobs(W2s and such).

Because of the thin population in the rural areas the state of Alsaka has written the laws so that rural Alaskans(both native and white) can purchase tags at a reduced cost. The flip side is that these are meat tags and the antlers usually have to be destroyed. These tags allow the people in the outlying areas to keep on living.

Due to the lack of $$$ in these areas there is no way that most of these people could survive without subsistence tags. If these tags were taken away many of these people would have to move into town and take low paying jobs.

There is a lot of politics involved, but in my mind these people are living the dream. I would rather loose my hunting rights than see them loose theirs.(did I just say that!?)

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Z,
Explain to me the need for "subsistance" caribou hunting? Do you the locals in the area hunt year around or not have jobs or what? Seems the caribou are viewed as livestock?

In the USA, I have yet to see anyone anywhere that "needed" wildgame to survive in this day and age.

I am just curious.

In the bush the cost of things like heating oil and food are astronomical. When you live in a village of 30 or 70 on a river in bush Alaska without roads and your only means of connection with the outside world is a $400+ flight things can get a bit tight. Being able to connect with a moose or caribou from your snow machine or boat and some salmon from your nets or fish wheel may make all the difference in you making it financially for the year or not..... There's not exactly a booming economy in a town of 30 on the XXXXX (pick one) River in bush Alaska.

Brett

That said lots of Alaskans like myself like the fly by night subsistence life style. We don't really NEED to subsist, but for various reasons we like elements of the lifestyle. If the resource can support it I see no harm in that. It's just a part of Alaskan life......or the allure of Alaska.

Brett

I had a friend tell me he was hunting caribou with a buddy off of Denali Hwy and his buddy shot a caribou in velvet in the horn. A piece of velvet was still attached, so the horn was swinging down hitting it in the face while it ran around. Yikes!

Brett

Zhurh,

Just a couple day hunt for the rest? Are you talking the 40 mile herd?

A7Dave,

He is talking the 40 mile.

All,
Thanks for the explanation on subsistance hunting. Appreciate no tantrums and the facts.
I learned a lot reading the replies.

Thanks

Ya, there's a bunch of politics, history, and how much different rural Alaska is than most anywhere else; have to see it, live it to appreciate & understand. Add in how enthrocentric we all naturally are with our world views and it gets involved.

They only have a 3 day hunt cause so many urban hunters show up, if it went longer; thousands would be taken. F&G is attempting to grow the herd, have limited hunts for urban people who do the drive, and placate the locals, and reluctantly feed the dang wolves & bear (which take 10 times what man takes). If we only had extensive predator control but that is even a bigger political issue; you end up with all the "I wanna kiss the wolves people" in lower 48 sending money to the politicians.

I honestly believe the TOK F&G and everybody involved in the 40 mile herd management does a good job with what they are faced with. I think most the locals also agree with me. TOK F&G is a friend to the hunters and I thank them for the great job they do. When I lived back East in Pennsylvania, I hated everything about the Pa. Game Commission; Alaska does a much better job, no joke.

Hunt starts Thursday, caribou are still quite thick, just hope they all don't pick up and leave the country as caribou sometimes do.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
All,
Thanks for the explanation on subsistance hunting. Appreciate no tantrums and the facts.
I learned a lot reading the replies.

Thanks

Dogcat
I have a really great book recommendation for you: The Hunt by John G. Mitchell(Amazon has it for about $4 shipped) It is about our relationship with nature and is written by a guy who had not hunted since he was a child. The book has a lot about the Alaskan subsistence lifestyle. It also has other stuff like an interview with Fred Bear at the end of his trail. I actually think the Fred Bear chapter should be required reading for Boddington and the rest of our hunting celebrities(as a cautionary tale).

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
The book has a lot about the Alaskan subsistence lifestyle. It also has other stuff like an interview with Fred Bear at the end of his trail.

OK -I'm genuinely curious.

I understand the idea of the locals living more off the land to feed themselves, food costs being what they are in Alaska...

But if there really are not jobs in the rural areas where do they get the money for the rest of their expenses???

The only thing that comes to mind is that there must be some serious welfare cases in the Alaska bush...

Please tell me I'm wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:
OK -I'm genuinely curious.

I understand the idea of the locals living more off the land to feed themselves, food costs being what they are in Alaska...

But if there really are not jobs in the rural areas where do they get the money for the rest of their expenses???

The only thing that comes to mind is that there must be some serious welfare cases in the Alaska bush...

Please tell me I'm wrong.

There are generally several employers in most villages. The school and post office are obvious ones as well as the village store, gas station, tribal government, city government, state department of transportation and hospital. Mind you, "hospital" and "school" are on a village scale, i.e., micro small. Some travel to work in the oil field or other big industry like deep sea fishing, some seasonally commercial fish for salmon along the coast and major waterways like the Yukon. Many live off of others income, meaning the wage earner provides for their family as well as Uncle Pete's or Cousin Willy's. Many thousand dollar "loans" are common out here among family. Its also common to not be re paid and thats usually understood before the transaction occurs.

Among rural Alaskans, HUD provides quite a bit of housing. Village social service organisations usually provide food and home heating assistance, the state regularly provides supplementary funding of one kind or another and of course the feds other than HUD get asked for and from regularly. Yes, there is quite a bit of assistance out here.

"Subsistence" is more than a food source for Native Alaskans. Its a way of life and a facet of their culture much like language. Suggesting an end to whale hunting to an eskimo or an end to caribou hunting to an indian is akin to genocide as far as they're concerned. In Bristol Bay salmon is the culture, the life blood, the reason for being and so you'd have to search every corner of the bay to find that single native that doesn't value fish in some way.

In practical terms, rather than sifting thru the partially warm and exorbitally expensive meat cooler at the local store, moose, caribou, salmon and fowl provide a natural, local and very inexpensive food source. We don't stock up on canned tuna, we don't buy sides of beef or two hogs, we just "reduce to possession" a moose, some salmon and a bunch of geese. Yeah we'll pay thru the nose for the laundry detergent, soda pop, t.p. and dorito's, even the hd tv's, but we can beat the grocer on the price of protein.

What Scott is saying is true. By the same token, in our community, there are entire white families working soc secur disability. They actually work at getting all family members on it. From crazy pay to medical problems, they see the govt welfare as a viable income. It's unbelievable in some ways.

I luv living here just the same, ignore the white trash, enjoy the hunting and lifestyle. I have never owned a cell phone and when I go into Fairbanks; I'm convinced that I never want one.

Taylor highway caribou hunt ends tonight. Six out of the nine of us (hunting together), got our bou. About average.

Correction: Up the Taylor at Jack Wade, 8 out of 9 of us got our caribou that were hunting together the last couple days. The only person that didn't shoot one saw a bunch of small bulls; we were right there with him when he didn't shoot. He has a subsistence permit anyway, wants a bigger bull, nicer quarters; can hunt until March anyway. Super Kudos to Ak F&G. I think just about everybody got their bou that stuck around.

quote:

Originally posted by Zhurh:
What Scott is saying is true. By the same token, in our community, there are entire white families working soc secur disability. They actually work at getting all family members on it. From crazy pay to medical problems, they see the govt welfare as a viable income. It's unbelievable in some ways.

We have the same thing down here in the lower 48 with people of every color. I knew a firefighter(white guy) who worked with my grandfather who did just that. It took him a few years, but both him and his wife were on permanent disability by the time they were in their late 30s. His wife's parents were both on PD also. Funny how that sort of bad luck seems to run in families.

Congrats on the caribou!

BTW, do you have to destroy the horns of the subsistence animals you take?

Nephew got a grizz tonight. Last night of hunting together, been a good last couple of days. I luv seeing anybody killin one of those moose calf eatin machines. Everybody's laughin & grinnin; I like it. Try to get some picts in morning.

Came down off our summit, caught the bear going up the side of mountain; only had 308 Scar in truck. Bear was movin out close to 300 yards in trees. He hit the bear 4-5 shot; sure nice to have a magazine full of TTSX's.