Is this an adequate calibur?

A search of this forum will give you all kinds of reading on this topic.

Yes, history has shown the 45-70 is an adequate chambering for Brown bear at "close" range.

I'd use mine in a heartbeat for BB, but as a resident I can pick and choose better. If conditions dont match what gun I am using, I can go out at another time.

For a non-res, if your gonna use a 45/70, let your guide know. that way he can plan on getting you close.

It has the killing power, just not the range.

Check out the next Rifle Magazine for the article by Brian Pearce and the Marlin 1895. Very interesting.

Having had and used both I would say the Guide Gun wasn,t any easier to shoot than the 458 Lott, The Marlin was a couple pounds lighter , but the Lott was not limited by range .. A 350 gr X bullet @ 2700 fps muzzle velocity is still going 2000fps @ 300 yards and has over 3000 ft lbs . Sighted in @ 200 yards it is only about 9" low @ 300 yrds .. About the same drop as my 223 ..................CZ 550 has a set trigger and an adjustable trigger which makes for easier field accuracy ..... Yes the marlin will kill a bear and can knock a bear down ... But the Lott does it in a very satisfying way .....

quote:

Originally posted by Doug Turnbull:
Check out the next Rifle Magazine for the article by Brian Pearce and the Marlin 1895. Very interesting.

Mr. Turnbull
The Rifle Mag article is very interesting, I also read the post about a moose hunt with Taj Shoemaker, and it appears that you have created a very effective rifle for large game, that out performs the 45-70. The question that remains unanswered is how it compares to the .50 Alaskan?

DR B

The performance is about the same. More monolithic bullets and Barnes available. less action work needed and it is NOT a 50 as the TSA people are starting to be a pain, and the California too. Bullets from 325 to 450 gr. There is about 15 bullets available in many styles lead, coppeer,jacketed. It will shoot in the 475 Turnbull all right. Case capacity is very close to being the same in both the 470 and the 50 alaskan so no real differences between the to there. The 50 can load the 500 grain bullets and that is most likely the biggest advantage for the 50.

All things being equal any advantage on terminal performance the 475 T would have over the 450 Alaskan , the 50 Alaskan would have over the 475 Turnbull ....... I prefer the 450 Ak. to the 45/70 .. and the 475 Turnbull would be in that class , easy to get the most smash out of a lever action ..................

Doug, Taj andI were playing with his 475 Turnbull and it looks like it might be about as good a back up rifle as is avaliable anywhere. I plan on testing it this year along with a 450/400 dbl and my 458.

Joel/AK,

Excuse my ignorance but what does AK residence have to do with what type of rifle one uses for a Brown Bear hunt? Are there different laws for residents as far a gun goes?

Just asking.

As a resident he can always head out again next weekend, not a luxury that a lot of out of staters have. If you come up for a 10 bear hunt and don't get in range during those 10 days your going home empty handed.

That said I seriously doubt that anyone would be that limited by range, very few bears are shot on the far side of 200 yards and the guide gun is definately adequate out to that range. A good 405gr Jacketed bullet at 1900+ fps is serious business.

There is a lot of excellent opinions, and advice in this thread, none of which I would have any argument at all with. I would like to be able to add to this and voice some of my opinions based on my experiences.

First I believe the 45/70 is adequate for the job at hand. Although I have not used 45/70 on brown bear, I have used it in many other arenas in Africa for critters from impala even to cape buffalo, black bear and assorted others. Way back, it seems a while now, in the late 90s--up to 2002 we did not have all the great bullets we now have at hand for the 45/70. Today it is far better than when I was playing around with it. One of the best I think is the 405 Woodleigh, followed by some of the big hard cast bullets. I think today if I were going for the big bears with 45/70 I would take a very serious look at the Woodleigh as primary. Notice from the beginning I say "adequate". As much as I love my 45/70s and all the critters I took with it, it just did not leave a lasting impression when watching animal reactions when hit with it. Yes, it did the job, but it never hit anything with much authority, I expected a bit more from it. Now this is based on limited experience, 20 + animals or so, and at the time bullet selection was limited. It was adequate, it did the job, but I would in no stretch consider it a back up rifle/cartridge, or a stopping cartridge. Adequate!

I took the 50 Alaskan case and squeezed it down to .500 caliber. Everything a 50 Alaskan can do--the 50 B&M Alaskan can do. Although I have not used my lever guns in the field, I have used a prototype bolt gun in 2005 that used a cartridge that was the dead equal of the lever gun cartridge and was amazed at the difference a bit more velocity could deliver, with a bit more diameter bullet. A .500 caliber bullet at 1900 to 2000 fps is a hammer on those very same species that I used the 45/70 for. Very noticeable difference. Even my wife that is only the occasional hunter, but always constant companion on my hunts, and knows nothing of bullets/cartridges noticed this. When wildebeast and zebras start dropping in their tracks like they were hit by a freight train, it gets noticed! There are many good bullets also available for these rifles and the velocity they can run in .500 caliber. I love the lever guns, but my main interest since 2005 has been my short bolt guns in 50 B&M. When I started working with the Alaskan case I had one bullet in mind, the 500 gr Hornady that is available in .500 caliber. It is a fantastic bullet, even though it was designed for the 500 SW it will hold together and is a big hammer up to 2100 fps, both tested on the range and in the field on animals such as zebra, wildebeast, eland and so forth, not bear yet, but that is coming in January in Russia. I have both Marlin Guide and M71s with 18 inch barrels and run the 500 gr Hornady at 1950 fps in both. I do expect this to be a show stopper for bear and or lion for that matter. In addition we have designed some .500 caliber bullets that are excellent for other applications too, one being several good solid designs that work well in the cartridge.

Turning to Mr. Turnbull's 470-475 cartridges he too has done the same thing with the same size rifles. It has many advantages over the 45/70, increased diameter, increased velocity, and Doug has managed to get some excellent bullets made for his cartridge. Good proper bullets are the key to success with any cartridge, Doug has accomplished this for the 470s! Doug's 470 has many of the advantages, and at least one up on my 50 B&M Alaskan, it is extremely easy to load, dies are available, prices to build are reasonable (as I see in the Rifle Magazine), excellent bullets are available for any application or mission, there is really no downside to the 470 Turnbull or for that matter the 50 B&M Alaskan. One thing that Doug has in his favor, as he mentioned above is the very fact that his cartridge starts with a "4", as in 470 and not 50 or 500! God knows I wish I would have called my cartridge a 499 and figured out something besides B&M (compared to BMG?). I have as yet had no issues with TSA, but for instance in South Africa every year I have had to answer the question of 50 B&M vs 50 BMG!!!! Although I have always been able to sort it out without too much of an issue, it still has been somewhat of a pain. I should have called it 500 or 499 or something to avoid that. Hind sight is wonderful, and it's too late now!

All should read the articles in the most recent Rifle Magazine, nearly the whole thing seems devoted to Doug's 470s and with good reason! I have no doubt the 470s will make a big mark in history, as well as the hunting fields. The rifle/cartridge would be perfect for the Alaskan game fields as a hunting rifle, and I think as a stopping rifle/cartridge. Although I have not used it personally, from other experiences I know it would be far and above any 45/70 load that could be offered, with much to gain in performance. If I were not so tied to my .500s I would be pestering Doug every day to see when my .470 Turnbull was going to be finished! Congrats Doug, you have done a jam up job with this!!!!!!!!

Michael

Got this picture the other day.

It came with the heading: Hoonah Bear.

Hoonah's on the Northern end of Chichagof Island.



Can't tell if it's a Guide Gun, but certainly taken with a lever gun.

I know nothing about he bear or hunter(s)

Muskeg

That is a nice looking bear, and the pose is great.

I can't tell much either, however while the guns appear to be Marlins, the barrels look a little long for guide guns??

Michael

What do you want to bet that those kids have red hair under their hats?

I've followed the various articles on DT's levers with great interest and look forward to the piece by B.P. in RIFLE. Shoemaker and Pearce are two of my favorite authors.

I'm also a big-bore fan, especially in levers. That said, I'm a devotee of the 1895 Marlin as well, having owned 4 of 'em, including a GG. My current version is the standard with a 22" tube, which is to my liking. I think I know pretty much what it will do. I don't know what michael458's loads were, but they don't sound all that impressive to me. My Marlin will easily fire a 465gr hardcast at 1900+ fps. From my NEF in 45-70, that same slug, moving out at 1935 fps flattened a trophy class bl. bear so fast I literally lost sight of him as the rifle came down out of recoil. The Ruger No.1, well that's really another story: Mine has an improved throat so is fully equal to a 458WM with same lenght barrel. The psi has been tested BTW.

So, is a 45-70 adequate for BB? If it isn't, then neither is a 338WM, or 340WBY, or 375 H&H/Ruger or the original 404 Jeffery!!! Do the math!

458

Hi 458. Back when I was messing around with the 45/70s, really good bullets were hard to come by. I had at one time 4 Guide Guns, 2 Ruger #1s, 2 1886s, and 3 1885s all in 45/70. I am still a 45/70 fan, but today if 45/70 is good--470 is better-and .500 is fantastic! Especially if the bullets are available to make them so.

I was shooting 400s at 1850 fps, 420s at 1900 fps, 350s at 1950 fps, and the Cast Performance 465 or 470? at 1750 fps from the 18 inch guide guns. So no they were not as hot as the loads you are shooting, and I also test PSI and some of the loads I was shooting were getting to the top for a guide gun. Of course your 22 inch barrel could have been getting you some of that extra velocity.

Also note that I also state that the 45/70 is adequate for said job, but now we have the 470s and the 500s. Not to mention the great 50 Alaskan. For me I like those big diameter bullets is all.

Speaking of adequate I shot my first big bear in 1999 from about 20 yds, I had a 338 WM and when he turned to give me a look, The first thought run thru my mind was that I needed a bigger gun! The 338 WM did a fine job with a 275 Swift, but still that 338 caliber bullet looks mighty damn small compared to a big bear?

Merry Christmas

quote:

Originally posted by .458

My Marlin will easily fire a 465gr hardcast at 1900+ fps. From my NEF in 45-70, that same slug, moving out at 1935 fps

So, is a 45-70 adequate for BB? If it isn't, then neither is a 338WM, or 340WBY, or 375 H&H/Ruger or the original 404 Jeffery!!! Do the math!

So you're making a comparison between a hardcast going 1935 fps and a .338 TSX going 25-3000 fps?

You suggestion to "Do the math," may be better served for you to use yourself.

As has been mentioned above, the 45-70 would certainly work well on brown bears in some circumstances. Bows and arrows also work well occasionally. A .338 and larger will work well in all circumstances.

I believe Mr. Shoemaker may have done the math. First off the KO (knock out)value, which I put much more stock in then energy values. . . for the .458 bullet traveling at 1,900 fps is a value of 58! The .338 with a 250 grain bullet at say 2,600 fps has a value of only 31. I have done the math for you. Looks to me like the lowly little .45-70 wins by almost twice the value that matters on large, dangerous game. How bout the Thornly stopping power math! Well lets see. . . . the .45-70 with his 465 gr. bullet produces a value of 248. The 250 .338 bullet produces a value of only 154. Again, the .45-70 hammers out half again more power. Sure, when you increase velocity with the larger cases, and go to the larger rounds,the margin becomes less, but it shows just how much killing power a 465 gr. .45 cal. bullet has from the .45-70. Too bad the high velocity fanatics don't have enough common sense or experience to understand this. Hmmmm, looks like Mr. Shoemaker knows of what he speaks!

Yeah Scott, you'd have to get that .338 "Whatever", 250 TSX moving out at 3600 fps to produce the same momentum as a 465gr at 1935! Plus, it only has .09 sq. in cross-section area compared to .165 sq-in for .458 caliber! True, the .338 Whatever is flatter shooting, but I hope you're not going to shoot a BB at 300yds plus!

For the record, I've owned and used 338 Win Mags and a 340 WBY, but they don't hit as hard as the load mentioned when measured by the KO Value. While I think the 338 mags are great cartridges for long range shooting of big game like moose and elk, yet for dangerous game like BB, even Phil Shoemaker places them a step behind the 45-70 on the big bears at reasonable range. He puts them in the class of the 375H&H. I would concur from my experience on moose and bl. bear.

Actually, I've written a reloading manual on the 45-70s, and I place them in the class of the 416 Rem and 404 Jeffery, based on KO Value and momentum.

By the way, energy figures for these two are almost identical. 3,728 for the .45-70, and 3,754 for the .338 WM. But again, enery figures don't mean much when we are talking large, dangerous game. The knock out values are much more to real life. And thank you mr. Shoemaker for your input, as it is very highly regarded on this forum!

Ok fellas, at 250 yards, what is the math on the terminal expansion and penetration of a hardcast bullet going 1900fps at the muzzle?

I'd appreciate his correction if I am wrong, but I'm guessing that if a future client were in conversation with Mr Shoemaker regarding an Alaska Peninsula brown bear hunt, and the future client were to mention that she/ he were comfortable and proficient with either their .338 or their 45-70 Sharps/ guide gun/ H&R/ whatever, Mr Shoemaker would advise the client to bring the .338.

Lemme see, accuracy, long range flat trajectory and penetration or the nostalgia of using a cartridge my great grandfather rode with in the indian wars.

Gosh, I wonder which.

Just for the heck of it I looked at some of my recovered bullets.

.338 win mag Swift A Frame in a 9' 9" brown bear going 2600fps. Bullet expanded to .770"

.375 North Fork going 2400fps in a Cape Buffalo expanded to .750"

.375 TSX going 2400fps in a 60" Alaska Yukon bull moose expanded to .600"

9.3 TSX going 2500fps in a teeny weeny Alaska Yukon bull moose expanded to .650"

.30 TSX going 2800fps into a North Slope grizzly expanded to .600"

"Knock out value,"? man I recovered the bullets 'cuz them critters wuz dead!

Guys, if you wanna use gramps indian rifle, thats super, but if you want to improve your odds of filling your brown bear tag bring the .338, speaking from 'sperience.

I'm not a brown bear expert but I have to agree with Scott even though he is not taking my calls. If a guy uses a 45-70 for brown bear he has to understand that he may have to limit some of the shots he takes much as a buffalo hunter in Africa would if he was using a big double rifle. For me If I was laying out $14,000 or more for a hunt I'd want a rifle that would handle whatever reasonable shot was presented. I think a 338 or 375 of some ilk would be perhaps ideal using a premium expanding bullet.

I hunted with some clients this year using a 45-70 with hard cast bullets. We were hunting antelope and the antelope died. The BUT is that the bullets made a very narrow wound channel causing a slow bleed and the antelope to run and flop around for an inordinate amount of time. In my opinion any modern cartridge would have done a better job with premium expanding bullets.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Just for the heck of it I looked at some of my recovered bullets.

.338 win mag Swift A Frame in a 9' 9" brown bear going 2600fps. Bullet expanded to .770"

.375 North Fork going 2400fps in a Cape Buffalo expanded to .750"

.375 TSX going 2400fps in a 60" Alaska Yukon bull moose expanded to .600"

9.3 TSX going 2500fps in a teeny weeny Alaska Yukon bull moose expanded to .650"

.30 TSX going 2800fps into a North Slope grizzly expanded to .600"

"Knock out value,"? man I recovered the bullets 'cuz them critters wuz dead!

Guys, if you wanna use gramps indian rifle, thats super, but if you want to improve your odds of filling your brown bear tag bring the .338, speaking from 'sperience.

Scott;

The question raised was NOT if the various 338s or 375s were adequate for big bear. Of course they are! The question was: Is the 45-70 adequate for big bear in Alaska? You, and a few others, are argueing there are better tools.

Have you used a 45-70 with a 22" or 24" barrel with premium loads and found they were inadequate in some way?

Phil Shoemaker carries one a lot! He knows as much about brown bears, and what it takes to kill them, as anyone on this forum. If there's an expert on this subject, it's Phil. Read his article on Alaskan Bear Rifles in Successful HUNTER, No.14/Mar/Apr 2005. He's used everything from a 30-06 to a 505 Gibbs. Then tell us what you know.

Also, for your edification, read Brian Pearce's piece on the 45-70 in Africa, RIFLE/Mar 2004, where he takes two buffalo with one shot from his Marlin 45-70, and then Mr. Young can tell us, from his personal shooting of Buffalo with a 45-70, what he really knows.

We're NOT discussing "grandpa's loads" here. It's fairly obvious that neither of you know much about modern 45-70's and their loads from personal experience!

Was the original load of a 400gr solid moving out a 2125fps from a 404 Jeffery sufficient for elephant, rhino and buffalo? That load was still being successfully used for elephant control in Tanzania well up into the '70s.

My Marlin will equal that load by firing a 405gr at 2120fps. The 26" Marlin will better it by quite a bit. My Ruger No.1 with a long throat will equal a 458 WM! I'm not suggesting they shoot as flat as a 338 magnum, but they shoot flat enough to make sure hits on whitetail size game to 250yds. My 465gr load is still moving at about 1561 fps at 250yds/2517ft-lbs. For an "old timer" that's pretty darn good in my book. And, yes, that bullet expands down to 1500 fps! A 250gr would have to be still going 2900 fps to match it in force/smash!

I said earlier,

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
As has been mentioned above, the 45-70 would certainly work well on brown bears in some circumstances.

Use what you want to. I certainly wouldn't fly all the way out here, buy a several thousand dollar bear hunt and not want to maximize my chances of filling the tag by using a good cartridge. For the same reason, I'm not interested in bow hunting here. Spending a week hunting moose only to not be able to close the distance to under a hundred yards would be a bummer imo.

Whatever!

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I said earlier,

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
As has been mentioned above, the 45-70 would certainly work well on brown bears in some circumstances.

Use what you want to. I certainly wouldn't fly all the way out here, buy a several thousand dollar bear hunt and not want to maximize my chances of filling the tag by using a good cartridge. For the same reason, I'm not interested in bow hunting here. Spending a week hunting moose only to not be able to close the distance to under a hundred yards would be a bummer imo.

Whatever!

A modern load in a Marlin 45-70 (not to mention the Ruger)has more kinetic energy/smash at 300 yds than a 405gr factory load has at the muzzle!
If that factory load helped whipe out the bison from the west, then clearly it's NOT logical to suggest it's necessary to "close the distance under a hundred yards"! It equals factory loads at 300!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

????????????

?

You've got to be kidding!

You draw a parallel between shooting bison on the Great Plains and brown bear in/ on/ near a willow choked creek or salmon stream and you break out the ?

To be sure I could have this all wrong, but if I understand it correctly while shooting bison it was quite alright to not knock the animal down upon bullet impact. After being shot they stagger off 50 or 500 yards, the skinners ride the wagon up near it laying there in plain sight and the work begins.

While brown bear hunting, if the bear staggers off 50 or 500 yards to die, it's almost a guarantee he's gonna go down in the thick stuff outta sight and I guess it'd be ok in your case as your guide is the lucky feller going in after it.

You want to talk logic?

Hey, brown bears are taken every year with the 45-70. The are also taken with a bow and arrow, mini 14 .223, 270 win, and the occasional automobile. Bring and use what you want. Don't bother trying to draw parallels between plains hunting for herbivores and DG hunting. That is illogical.

Mr. Shoemaker was simply stating the hot loaded .45-70 is in the same class when it comes to ability of it compared to other well respected rounds, no more, no less. Since most shots at the big bears are 200 yards and under, it shows the .45-70 a perfectly adequate cartridge IF it's what you chose to use. And the the math involved in determining adequacy, proves this fact. I regularly practice with mine shooting hard cast 475 grain LBT style bullets out to 350 yards, and find it accurate enough to take rabbit sized targets with my little Leupold 2.5 power scope at that range easy enough. Sure there is a fair amount of bullet drop, but I shoot more in 1 month than most will in a liftime, and would not hesitate to use my guide gun on a once in a liftime hunt. At a measly 200 yards it will take the top off a pop bottle. And a Cowboy .45-70 holds 9 rounds. How many does your .338 hold? Sure I like and shoot a .375 H&H a lot, and have had several .338s, a couple of .300s, .458. .460s, and on and on. When it comes to .45-70s, I've had maybe 2 dozen, because I find them that good. But the question was about whether the .45-70 will work. Yes, it will work, and work well. For you fellas that need a much flatter shootin' iron to HIT anything out past 200 yards. I would have to recommend more practice. But yup, the flat shooters do make the game a lot easier for the novice. Cheers!

Nothing but good news D!Your proficiency will I am sure serve you well.

And of course your guide will be there to clean up the rest.

Scott; you certainly have the freedom to refuse to look at the FACTS that've been presented. If you choose to stick your head in the sand and live in denial that the 45-70 of today is NOT the 45-70 of the Indian Wars, then I think it's useless for anyone, Shoemaker included, to try and convince you. That's your perogative.

But, if someone showed up in Alaska with a 404 Jeffery to hunt bear with, I assume you'd declare it inferior in some way to your own preferences. That's OK by me. But, at what range do you shoot the big bears, or recommend to out-of-state, once in a lifetime hunters that they should be prepared to take a shot on DG? An honest question.

Have a happy New Year!

The facts as I understand them, (the ability of me to understand is as usual even to myself in question,) is that the 45-70 drives non premium bullets at non premium speeds. A hard cast bullet,(also DBA hunk 'o lead,) going low 2000's fps is not exactly ripping by modern standards. The .458 win mag drives a 450g TSX at what? 2300fps? The .375 Ruger drives a 300g TSX at 2700fps?

Again, I am aware and do understand the cartridge in question has been and will continue to be used effectively on brown bears.

Since in western Alaska I believe and have experienced shooting distances on bears and other big game to be anywhere from 5-350 yards, I would recommend the use of a .338 win mag or larger.

A couple of examples I have experienced that led me to this conclusion; Something like ten years ago a friend and I went up on our lake system to look for a brownie. We spotted one off the lake up on the mountain side and proceeded to close as best we could. At the end we found ourselves cross canyon from the bear, a thick wall of willows between us and himself heading over the top and out of the drainage. I'd recollect distance to be about 250 yards. One after the other the two of us hunters opened up on the bear, making good hits with our .338 and .375's and rolled him back down into the willows I mentioned previously. We waited quite a while for signs of anything from the willows and finally went in to find the bear dead.

In the second case I was hunting sheep on the north slope of the Brooks Range and we literally bumped into a grizzly. He naturally went to beating it out of there and we gave chase. Wen we were presented with a shot it was at a range of better than 300 yards and we let fly. After it was all said and done I suspect the final shot was around 350 and again the bear piled up in some thick stuff, (a rarity in the Brooks,) and we eventually found him dead.

In both these examples, I'd rather have a repeating bolt gun in my hands loaded with modern centerfire cartridges rather than an older slower cartridge like the 404, or in an inherently less accurate action like a lever. Yeah yeah I know, some are regular accuracy wiz'es with the levers, wonderful, I'm happy for you.

So thats what I think. So what! Truck loads of feller hunt every year with bows up here and are wildly successful. Many in Alaska and even Dillingham use the 45-70 and do quite well. Super. On the 9'9" bear I took a few years ago the range was between 15 and 20 yards. The Guide Gun would have worked quite well.

To me, it makes sense for an Alaska resident to hunt with quirky/ odd/ antique or primitive weapons because if this trip doesn't work out you can always go back next weekend with the modern stuff. Hunting with the primitive weapon for the first three weeks of moose season makes perfect logic when you can go back out for the final week with your magnum what ever.

IMO, for any of you guys to book with Shoemaker, spend what? $2000.00 on airfare alone, get nothing but sideways rain for all except that one day you get out of the tent, and see that one big boar going over the top of the drainage at 275 yards, and you don't have a win mag in your hands just doesn't make sense. For some, the weapon chosen is more important that game taken. Cool! For me, I like to use the modern advantages available to me to assist in game aquisition. I do draw the line at "Robo Ducks" and have recently stopped using repeating shotguns though!

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Was the original load of a 400gr solid moving out a 2125fps from a 404 Jeffery sufficient for elephant, rhino and buffalo? That load was still being successfully used for elephant control in Tanzania well up into the '70s.

My Marlin will equal that load by firing a 405gr at 2120fps.

somebody new at this game might drop by and read this and belive it:

a 0.408" with a SD. of .344 going at 2150 fps

is not the same as

a 0.458" with a SD of .276 going at 2150 fps

the penetration of the two are wildly different.

regarding the rest, i couldent give a f**k. run what you brung.

peter

Scott, point very well taken. And for a hunter that places priority on simply shooting a great Bear at any distance possible, it makes total sense. I simply think you are disrespecting those of us that take pride in hunting with a firearm that holds a sense of nostalgia, or romance for some of us; as long as it is adequite once we do stalk in close enough to do so. I have taken a few heads of big game in my 40+ years of hunting. Some 450+ to date. I've used most calibers to do so. Though I have, I don't feel the need to be able to shoot my game in the next county anymore. I prefer to use my own hand cast bullets these days from handguns and lever action firearms. When I hunt varmints, I use a 1911, .45 acp. and get more pleasure when I do finaly connect with a 100 yard ground squirrel, then to hit them every time with a scoped rifle. These days, when I hunt big game, I will use a big revolver, or a lever rifle. And I'll promise you that the caliber will be enough for the game taken. Now if I plan to stalk a 9' Alaskan Brown Bear, I would probably book with Mr. Shoemaker, and use one of my big lever guns. If I am successful, then I will make a big rug. If I can't get close enough, then I will still have a great adventure to remember. But I will have done it my way. Do you see any problem with that? Or, is killing something every time out that important to you? If it is, then me thinks you completely miss the point of why some of us hunt. And I'm just unclear on why you have a problem with others using a firearm that is completely adequite within our understood limitations, if that is how we prefer to take OUR game animals. There is a big difference between 'Hunting' & 'Killing'. I gave up killing about 20 years ago. Now I prefer to hunt! Cheers

D, I just don't know how else I can write it.

Yes, I do know the 45-70 has been, is now and will continue to be used effectively for hunting all Alaskan big game. The bow and arrow, muzzle loaders, and other alternatives to the modern centerfire weapons also have been and will be used effectively.

I don't think I've seen where I or anybody else on this thread has promoted, "simply shooting a great bear at any distance possible," as you say. I mentioned shooting at distances up to 350 yards. Hardly extreeme range.

I think, (and please correct me if I am wrong,) that I have taken exception to the comparison of the 45-70 to modern cartridges and to the comparison of market hunting for buffalo in the 19th century with brown bear hunting. In both there is no comparison. A 45-70 cannot perform on par with most medium cartridges and a great plains buffalo hunt is nothing like a sub arctic brown bear hunt.

Please, use what you want! There is a feller right here in town that uses a home built long bow and loves it!I think that's great, wonderful, fantastic. No, he doesn't take as much game as those of us using center fire modern rifles, and yes he is happy to take wild game donations for his freezer, but he is still overjoyed with his bow. Cool, neato.

To answer your question regarding "killing something every time out," The answer would be yes in most cases. Unlike Springfield Oregon, out here in Timbuktu we rely on quite a bit of the game taken for the dinner table. We do have two grocery stores in Dillingham and you can buy anything you want in them. The stores are incredibilly expensive and moose, caribou, salmon, and game birds make up a considerable portion of our diet. We don't eat the bears FYI. So, yeah! we do or I do want to fill the tag when we hunt since it fills the freezer. This fall I got skunked moose hunting and thought I was going to have to buy beef for the winter. Luckily I got to get out last weekend for the day and ended up with a bull moose to chew on.

Besides the subsistence reason to take game, (which may or may not be bs,) I just like eating it. I used a 30-06 to hunt sheep in the Brooks Range because I think sheep tastes really good. To me, Dall Sheep is more attractive on the dinner plate than any other meat regardless of color. If I'd have been carrying a 45-70 or and other alternative weapon I felt "nostalgia" about on the two trips I made I would have come home empty handed. No sheep steaks for me.

So, in review I think;

a) use the 45-70 if you like, it does work well in quite a few situations.

b) no the 45-70 is not equal to a medium caliber modern cartridge using modern premium bullets and powders. There is no comparison to a .338 win mag driving a 225g TSX at 2800fps and a 45-70 driving a 350g TSX at 2139fps. (loads and speeds from Barnes Reloading Manual 4,)

c) And this part I may be way off on, as I wasn't there, but I think there is no way any kind of parallel can be drawn between market buffalo hunting on the plains and brown bear hunting. If I remember what I read correctly, the 45-70 actually wasn't much of a player in the buffalo hunting anyway, the hunters seemed to prefer the bigger Sharps cartridges like the 45-90, 120, and 50 cal's.

I understand I have gotten quite a bit away from the subject of brown bear with the 45-70, but as I have been writing about Akaska hunting I think you can see the relation. I'd think generally if you choose a method of hunting you'd stick with it in different venues. As you said D, you use handguns and lever rifles for all your hunting.

Hey man, just my opinion, expressed on a free internet site. Worth absolutely nothing.

Guys,

Obviously Scott doesn't care what you guys hunt with but the point is the 45-70 may not be ideal. For one thing you guys keep talking about hardcast bullets. They penetrate very well but make a small wound channel. They just are not the best medicine for large soft skins animals that bite.

You mention hot modern loads in the same breath as nostalgia and that seems an oxymoron to me.

How about this? I'm a booking agent and book some brown bears hunts every year. I also spent 22 years living in Dillingham, AK where the bear densities are just amazing. If you come to me wanting to buy a hunt and ask about my recommendation for a bear rifle my recommendation won't be the 45-70 of any ilk. A 45-70 is not a bad choice but just not ideal as a client rifle.

Mark

Well, looksd like we can agree on one thing. Though I have not hunted American Buffalo, I have a friend that has. The guide in Wyoming actually prefers the client to use a cast bullet slinger. He say's 'hell; you can kill those Buffalo with friggin' .38 specials'! You simply pop them thru the lungs; roll your self a cigarette, sit back and wait for them to lay down and die. He actually took a .300 WM to shoot his Buffalo, and the guide about had a fit. Claiming it was way too much for the hunt, and in no way keeping with the period. So for hunting them you are right. Hunting Buffalo can in no way be compared to hunting Brown Bear. And when out for meat, as you are; I myself would also prefer to use a much flatter shootin', hard hitting firearm to help guarentee my success. Absolutely. At the same time, IF I knew I was going to be charged at tobacco spitting distance by a Bear; I would actually prefer my .45-70, or bigger lever gun; hands down! I know my heavy cast slug will go thru at any angle, thru any bone, and put a big hole thru the vitals. I have had the famous 'Nosler Partitions' actually fail to penetrate the little shoulder of a Black Tail deer on a raking shot at only 30 yards. High velocity bullets can be unpredictable when bone is hit. The big heavy slow bullet though not as dramatic, is very predictable. And predictable is what I would want if face to face with a big bear. I will have to ask if you have ever used a hot loaded .45 cal rifle on Bear? Not trying to be confrontational at all. Hell; the next time I go to Alaska ( I want to hunt moose); I will buy you a beer, and we can enjoy discussing our views on hunting, and what we hunt with, and why. I think we would agree on more then would think if truth be known. Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
I will have to ask if you have ever used a hot loaded .45 cal rifle on Bear?

Up until sometime in the near future I've never had any reason to own or use a .45 cal rifle. While living in the lower 48 I didn't see a reason to possess anything larger than a 7mm rifle for any of the western states hunting I did.

Upon moving to AK I did buy a couple of .30 cal rifles and enjoyed their effectiveness very much. I used to own a .338 and used it on bears but recently got rid of it. I moved up to the .375 H&H because I had to have one to hunt buffalo in Africa and now I just like using it. Loaded with the TSX bullets I have found it to be very effective on African game and moose around here although I'm not sure I have seen a substantial improvement over the .30 cal's on the moose.

Mark Young is making me go elephant hunting and is making me use a .458 win mag to hunt with. I have a Mark X action being put together with a 24" barrel on a McMillan stock for the adventure. That will be the first and perhaps only .45 cal rifle I will own. Were I not in the past and am still being forced into these african trips I suspect I would not ever have used anything larger than a .35 cal or so.

As far as any kind of confrontation goes D, come now! We are all adults here and this is the internet. Ok, I'm making an assumption on the adult thing and for all you know I am in fact an eight year old girl. I'm suprised my penmanship hasn't already given that away. There is no real confrontation here. We're just jabbering away over the web. You were before and remain now a public forum confidante of mine.

Scott, I do wish I had friends as your buddy Mark Young, that would force me to Africa for an Elephant hunt. I have had a lifelong desire to hunt Lion myself, as they are probably the only game animal that truly scares me. But, it would be the 'ultimate hunt' for myself. I've owned a couple of .458s, and they also make great cast bullet shooters. Good luck on your hunt, and let us all know how it went.