Mark: first off, I've not mentioned nostalgia... I'm not that kind. Nothing against it... that's just not me. I'm, well, ... well into my 70's; actually 73 tomorrow. I only mention it because after 30 years of using anything from 303 British to 458 Win Mag, in the last two decades I've settled on big-bores for most all my hunting of big game. They work best for me. I've witnessed a substantial difference on game.

The 45-70 became my favorite after using it on a black bear hunt in '89. I've not owned as many as DWright, but 4 Marlins (including a GG)3 Rugers and an NEF single shot. I've handloaded all of them and, as mentioned, know pretty much what they will do both ballistically and on game in my neck of the woods. I won't get into boasting about numbers because if I've shot one more game animal than someone else, that doesn't prove anything.

The second point is: very few of my loads are cast bullets - but they do work very well on soft-skinned game when cast to the proper degree of hardness for the intended species. There are excellent jacketed bullets available for anything up to Cape Buffalo. Please read Brian Pearce's article.

Third: a properly constructed 400gr, .458" moving out at 2100 fps is obviously NOT as flat shooting as a 375H&H or 338 magnum, but at 200 yds it will hit just as hard, or harder. IMV, based on research, rarely, if ever, is a Cape Buffalo shot at anywhere near that range. And, I don't think Shoemaker whould encourage that kind of shot on brown bear, according to his own testimony where he encourages the client to get as close as possible, and then closer, as he doesn't enjoy chasing wounded brown bear.

The AVERAGE client cannot make a 300 yd lethal hit on brown bear a) when they've not hunted them previously, b)under stress, and c)when they're unfamiliar, or afraid of, a "big" magnum they have little practice with.

Fourth: for someone living in Alaska, I can read and understand that they might prefer a "long-range cannon" for several reasons... the same reasons I prefer big-bores where I hunt. I prefer big-bores because I want to stop the game right there. I do a lot of black bear hunting, and where I hunt is dense brush and forest, over bait. The best bears come in at the last few minutes of hunting light. In the area of my hunting, there are a lot of ridges, ravines, swamps and small lakes. If they run off, even 50 yds, they can cause a bunch of trouble. Shots are mostly 35 to 100 yds at most. I've never found one yet to argue with a 400 to 500 grain leaving the muzzle at 2100+ fps.

I've killed one bear with a 500gr Hornady Interloc at 2200 fps from my Ruger No.1 45-70 "Improved" because I wanted to see how that bullet would work on bl. bear. It was a research project that would be referred to in my manual.

Scott: My Ruger No.1, long-throated, will fire that 350TSX at 2500+ fps. That same bullet is my favorite for hunting N.A. moose and bear. It went hunting this past October in Northern Ontario, and from my CZ 550 in 458WM, it leaves the muzzle at 2700+ fps. The trajectory of that load is (as tested) +3.2" at 100yds and -6" at 300yds. KE is over 2900 ft-lbs at 300 yds. Yeah, I know that doesn't mesh with Barnes numbers, but those results are from actual tests. I've talked with Barnes about it and they admit their numbers are "variable". The actual BC is even better... more like their number for the "original" 350-X (.402 BC).

Do ya think that's enough for "brownies"?
If I came to Alaska, for moose or bear, no doubt that's the rifle I'd bring, and the Ruger No.1 as a backup. But... I just might bring my trusted Marlin!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Scott, I do wish I had friends as your buddy Mark Young, that would force me to Africa for an Elephant hunt. I have had a lifelong desire to hunt Lion myself, as they are probably the only game animal that truly scares me. But, it would be the 'ultimate hunt' for myself. I've owned a couple of .458s, and they also make great cast bullet shooters. Good luck on your hunt, and let us all know how it went.

I should have noted in my last post that you as a guest in Alaska would make it my obligation to buy the first beer.

Mark is no friend to want. He's educated in African hunting, travel, geography, safari outfitters and game species. Friends like him lead to expensive adventures I'd just as soon avoid with my fat butt safely esconsed in my bathtub or closet.

FYI I hunted last year and will again this next year with Mokore Safari. in Zimbabwe. I know they are operating in a concession in Mozambique and I understand they have a very good lion opportunity at what appears to be a reasonable price. Just some info for you.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Do ya think that's enough for "brownies"?

I'm very happy you have pressed the two cartridges well beyond the maximum loads advised by every published reloading manual I have seen. No doubt, that'd tip over any and all bears or otherwise it comes in contact with.

Perhaps another way of doing things would be to just use a .458 win mag rather than press the 45-70 up to win mag performance. Rather than press the .458 win mag to .458 Lott performance, just use a Lott. Rather than press a .458 Lott up to .460 Weatherby performance,................

Hey, whatever you want my friend.

Scott:

That's a reaction on your part. OK by me

But, I've done the homework. The Ruger No.1 has more capacity, when loaded as I load it with H335 and the 500gr Hornady, than Barnes load has for the 458WM, when loaded with their 500gr X-Bullet and 1/2 grain more of the same powder -more capacity by quite a bit.

The CZ 550 in 458WM has a magazine that allows a COL of 3.8". The leade of the 458WM actually allows a COL (magazine and bullet permitting)of nearly 1/2" greater than the Lott! So, yes, my loads can easily match, or exceed the Lott, SAFELY! With the TSX's you can choose which groove you want to crimp into. In other words, when TSX's are seated to match the Lott, there is still more "freebore" than the Lott has. Those are facts... not hunches. Well documented.

Not trying to be smart, but I wanted to get my 458 loads to chamber smoothly from the extra long magazine, and can do that by seating the bullets as long as possible while still maintaining a solid crimp. Accuracy is superb, and no bullet movement under recoil.

You've explained your position, I'm doing same

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Scott:

That's a reaction on your part. OK by me

But, I've done the homework. The Ruger No.1 has more capacity, when loaded as I load it with H335 and the 500gr Hornady, than Barnes load has for the 458WM, when loaded with their 500gr X-Bullet and 1/2 grain more of the same powder -more capacity by quite a bit.

The CZ 550 in 458WM has a magazine that allows a COL of 3.8". The leade of the 458WM actually allows a COL (magazine and bullet permitting)of nearly 1/2" greater than the Lott! So, yes, my loads can easily match, or exceed the Lott, SAFELY! With the TSX's you can choose which groove you want to crimp into. In other words, when TSX's are seated to match the Lott, there is still more "freebore" than the Lott has. Those are facts... not hunches. Well documented.

Not trying to be smart, but I wanted to get my 458 loads to chamber smoothly from the extra long magazine, and can do that by seating the bullets as long as possible while still maintaining a solid crimp. Accuracy is superb, and no bullet movement under recoil.

You've explained your position, I'm doing same

You know what I think? I think you like big recoil!

Best regards my friend!

Best to you Scott

Bob

"Hey, brown bears are taken every year with the 45-70. The are also taken with a bow and arrow, mini 14 .223, 270 win, and the occasional automobile. Bring and use what you want."

Good! I'm bringin' a '53 Buick with a 14" I-beam front bumper and a roll cage.

I never hunted grizzly but i killed many ,many buffalos and wild cebues here in Argentina with my marlin guide gun -its very popular here-i always use garrets solids but sometimes i used even winchester hollowpoints for softskinned game ,and never have a problem ,i use it because we hunt buffalos in swamps after long horseback ridings and its very handy ,i carry it attached to my chest with a 3 point sling.

I would've felt comfortable shooting my 375 H&H, but now that I'll have a 500 Jeffery in a month, that'll be my go to rifle.



Chuck

I think we all pretty much agree that the 45-70 is adequate for BB in AK. One question I'd like to ask Mr. Shoemaker and maybe even some of you is...If I was YOUR paying client and have paid you $18k to hunt BB, and I said I have two guns that I shoot equally well, a 45-70 and a 338. What should I bring? Oh By-The-Way, I will tip you an extra $18k if I get a nice bear. Food for thought, when it's time to pull out the wallet it's amazing how many people will re-think things over.

Dennis - I'm assuming you are considering a trophy hunt with the 45/70 and not just carrying it for defense. I'm no brown bear hunter, but I usually buy a tag in case I come across an exceptional bear or have to shoot one defensively. I wouldn't choose to hunt trophy size brown bear with a 45/70 guide gun. Loaded right, I'd say that the GG is plenty for protection and just adequate for trophy hunting. If you are a non-resident I'd be sure to bounce your question off of your guide, as one I know will want to carry a longer range cartridge for backup.

I have 2 friends that use them for fall guide guns and they swear by them. Ed Stevenson used them for yrs as well. The only item that needs to be addressed is load & bullets along with sight configuration.

If I had to pay a guide to hunt brown bear I would ask him which one he thought would be more appropriate. I have an XLR in 45-70 and a Model 70 in 375 H&H and I feel very confident with both rifles but I would take whichever one he would recommend. But being a resident and being able to hunt them every year, I prefer to take the XLR over the 375 H&H as I don't care to shoot much over 100 yards at a big brownie.

I have just discovered this topic and I have really enjoyed the wealth of information that has been presented on this topic. Although I didn't make the original post, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to contemplate the information from so many knowledgeable members of our gun culture. My following post does not fully address the universal North American rifle, but I do feel that the post is relevant to the discussion. In 2002 I was a constant reader of Marlin Talk which was at that time sponsored by Marlin Firearms. The topic of bear hunting was hot then as it continues to be now, and I posted the following regarding that topic. Since 2002 I have been on two bear hunts and both times had very close encounters which could have been exceedingly unpleasant. If you choose to not read this post all the way through the subject matter can be summed up as: When in bear country, ALWAYS carry the LARGEST caliber gun that you can shoot competently! The very last thing that you or your guide wants is a very mobile, wounded bear whether it be at 250 yards or at 10 yards, in the open or in the bush.

From a post I did in 2002:

I am retired now, but in my prior life, I was a lay-Coroner. I have investigated the cause and manner of death in many shootings. I have seen the results of a variety of different calibers on human targets, by being at the scene of the shootings, being present at many autopsies as well as being to many training seminars on this topic. Some observations which might apply to this discussion:

1. There have been more civilians (non-military) killed by .22 caliber bullets than any other caliber.
2. To properly evaluate reactions to being shot, it is prudent to eliminate victims that are under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.
3. Many shooting victims give up the fight because they have seen enough movies and TV shows to know that when they get shot, they are supposed to fall down, or fall backwards, or go flying across the room and through the window, or stagger and gasp, and maybe roll their eyes.
4. Victims that have been hit in the central nervous system go down instantly.
5. Victims that are hit in the cardio-vascular system do not necessarily give up the fight immediately, unless they have watched enough TV to know that they should. But they do very often die at some point in the future, and often, they do a great deal more harm prior to that point when they die.
6. Victims that are hit in the knee, leg bone, spine, pelvis, hip, etc. usually go down immediately. Thus, the loss of mobility reduces the potential for additional harm.

Now where do we go with this information?

A. It should be assumed that bears are not on drugs or alcohol.
B. Bears, if shot with a .22 caliber or other relatively small caliber firearm, may eventually die.
C. Bears hit in the central nervous system with pretty much any caliber will probably stop all aggressive action immediately, even though they have not watched TV/movies about what they should do.
D. Bears shot with a large caliber firearm where the projectile only damages the cardio-vascular system will probably die a little sooner, but can still do a lot of damage to a human prior to the bear's demise.

So the point to all of this is that it is desirable to use a firearm that, if the shot is properly (or luckily) placed, will provide the destruction of bone, joints, spine, skull, etc. as well as the destruction of the cardio-vascular and/or the central nervous system. Obviously, there is a great degree of either well-practiced skill, or a greater degree of luck involved in shot placement on a charging bruin. If the bear ends up with a shoulder or two that are non-functional, it's level of aggression may remain very high, but the ability to manifest that aggression will be less effective because of its reduction in mobility.

So, included in the overall discussion, it seems prudent to consider not so much the death of the bear, but the immediate incapacitation of the bear. Whatever caliber is selected, it seems desirable that it has the ability to deliver bone-crushing effects so that if the shooter is lucky enough to hit "bone," the bear may be slowed enough that additional shots can be more precisely placed.

I used my Guide Gun in 45-70 and found that it was very effective. I shot the bear at about 30 yards, placing the bullet behind the left shoulder and out through the right front shoulder. The bullet penetrated both lungs before completely destroying the right front shoulder. It ran about 60 yards where it stopped and I put another shot on the bottom edge of the chest which put a deep crease across the chest. The second shot didn't matter, the bear was running dead after the first shot. Yes, the 45-70 was definitely up to the chore.

I also did some follow up on the fishermen that had the bear encounter on the Russian River in Alaska while salmon fishing. Although the gentleman had a 12 gauge shotgun and had made a good selection of defensive equipment, he didn't plan or train very well because he couldn't remember whether he had a round in the chamber, thus he elected to throw the shotgun at the bear (and surrender his fish), and seek "refuge" in the river. He had two companions that were both armed with 9mm handguns. They both emptied their guns into the bear. Not the best selection of equipment, but there were some very lucky hits that damaged the shoulders of the bear, and thus the bear retreated, and ultimately died. (If I was not religious before this event, I certainly would have become very religious following it).

When I started writing this I certainly did not intend to go on at such length. I appreciate the patience of each of you and I hope that the information and observations are taken in the spirit intended, and that is, to apply some prior experience, to the questions at issue.

When in bear country, ALWAYS carry the LARGEST caliber gun that you can shoot competently

For my big bear guns have several 338 win....and a 375 Ruger Alaskan...that is sweet to shoot.

The 416 Rem is very good.....also.....but I do not have one.

Well I guess this thread has proven one thing,and that is the 45-70 is adiquate for Brown bear, and the darling of Alaska the 338 Win Mag is questionable!

When fishing in Alaska, I carry a Marlin 1895 that I had shortened to 16" barrel, extended the magazine to the end of the barrel, makeing a Marlin 45-70 trapper rifle. I load this with the "HOT" loads I use in my Ruger No1 45-70 with Woodliegh bullets. I wear a back pack frame and simply hook the sling over the top post of the right side on the frame, so my hands are free for fishing.

With these loads, which I wouldn't use in my Marlin on a steady basis, because it would trash the rifle over time. However I think the 45-70 in these cercumstances is up to the job of discourageing, and bear that wanted to discuss who owned the river.

Haveing said that, My thinking is that this rifle and load, is far supperior to the little handguns most carry while fishing up in Alaska, and easier to hit what you shoot at multiple times in rappid sucession.

Still, I would not want this rifle or any 45-70 in tight cover with a Brown Bear, and when hunting Brown Bear, I want something that is not only well, and goodly up to anything the bear might decide to do, but have an even to better chance of stopping him at my feet.

In this sceenario, My 470NE double rifle producing over 5000 pounds of energy, would be far more comforting. However when hunting I hunt everything in Alaska with a Bolt action Whiteworth African express 375 H&H, with 300 gr Swift A-frames, or Nosler Partitions @ 2550 fps. It is an accureate rifle, and I hit what I shoot at out to 350 yds, and it is fine for everything from whitetail deer right up to Elephant.

Is it the best choices for elephant, or whitetail? NO!Is it more versitile for those two, and everything in between? Hell yes it is!

I love the old 45-70 rifles and I have them in single shots levers, bolts, and double rifles, with scopes, and without, I shoot some of the hottest loads you can pack into a 45-70 case, and some of the most accurate factory loads. However, I'm aware of the cartridge's
limitations, and simply tend to use the best choice available for the sittuation I'm placeing myself in!

In the thick hunting a brown bear, or a cape buffalo, the 45-70 is at home in the safe, and something a bit more usefull is in my hands!

If, however, the 45-70 Guide Gun floats your Kayak, then paddel on! It's your choice, and your hunt! All just one old man's opinion, but as you know opinions vary!

If I were buying a BB hunt for $18,000 and I wanted to hunt with my .45-70 GG and the guide was less than enthusiastic about my little gun then I would get another guide.

Namibiahunter

quote:

Originally posted by HARDBALLER:
I think we all pretty much agree that the 45-70 is adequate for BB in AK. One question I'd like to ask Mr. Shoemaker and maybe even some of you is...If I was YOUR paying client and have paid you $18k to hunt BB, and I said I have two guns that I shoot equally well, a 45-70 and a 338. What should I bring? Oh By-The-Way, I will tip you an extra $18k if I get a nice bear. Food for thought, when it's time to pull out the wallet it's amazing how many people will re-think things over.

Since at least 90% of the bears my clients have shot over the past twenty-five years have been less than 100 yards away when first shot, a 45-70 would certainly have done as well as a .338 or .375.

Only my opinion but I wouldn't have a second thought about a .45-70 with Buffalo Bore ammo at a hundred yards or less . I have a .416 and a .458 but would always opt for a lever close up , nothing's as fast . A Leupold 1x4 with quick release and glow in the dark rear fixed blade and Brockman oversized lever is tough to beat . Marlins are great , quick to take down , easy to slick up and cheap , not a gun to worry about . A good 400 gr. at around 2,000 fps is going to work on anything , anywhere .

Great discussion guys, I sure don't know ballistics like most of you but have had some experience living in Alaska all my life. I started guiding P.O.W about seven years ago and had a booking agent book all my hunts though TV(Steve's Outdoor Adventures) he would assistant guide for me . He would always bring a 45-70 to the lodge for a extra rifle. We had a hunter use it one day and they were stalking a exceptional Black bear and decided to take it from 150 yards or more. (I always like to get within 100 yards of bears mostly for back up reasons)shot the bear and six of us searched for a day and never found him . Dropped got up and ran into logged off area. We got this on film which you could zoom in so close you saw the impact clear good hit. My expeience with a 45-70

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by HARDBALLER:
I think we all pretty much agree that the 45-70 is adequate for BB in AK. One question I'd like to ask Mr. Shoemaker and maybe even some of you is...If I was YOUR paying client and have paid you $18k to hunt BB, and I said I have two guns that I shoot equally well, a 45-70 and a 338. What should I bring? Oh By-The-Way, I will tip you an extra $18k if I get a nice bear. Food for thought, when it's time to pull out the wallet it's amazing how many people will re-think things over.

Since at least 90% of the bears my clients have shot over the past twenty-five years have been less than 100 yards away when first shot, a 45-70 would certainly have done as well as a .338 or .375.

I tend to be the other 5%, thanks for responding .