A friend of mine lives in Alaska and iss a wilderness river fisherman mostly. He maintains that a lot of resident wilderness people ( NON HUNTERS ) carry shot guns for protection from bear attack. How effective is this? What ammo are we talking here ? roger

They can keep the shotgun, there are better tools for the job.

Kinda like rebuilding a engine with a crescent wrench, it could work but better tools are available.

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
They can keep the shotgun, there are better tools for the job.

Kinda like rebuilding a engine with a crescent wrench, it could work but better tools are available.

You and I may be singing from the same hymnal, Joel, but are there any authenticated survival stories about folks using the shotgun against the big bears? roger

Oh yeah, shotguns have saved alot of folks. its just not my cup of tea.

If it wasnt for gravity, I couldnt hit the ground with a 12ga. You want a good laugh, watch me shoot trap

If your gonna use a scattergun, I'd go for some Brennekes or I hear barnes makes a good slug. the foster slugs suck, but they have worked for people in the past.

A USFWS employee used one out here a few years ago to stop one coming on fast. A friend at the state fish and game commonly carries a shotgun or a .44.

I'd think a shotgun stuffed full of slugs would "Stop a bear charge,"

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
but are there any authenticated survival stories about folks using the shotgun against the big bears? roger

There are true stories about people using .222 to kill polar bears. Still not the right tool.

A .375 H&H will penetrate deeper and cause much more tissue damage. Better yet, a 458 win mag. Cut the barrel to 16 inches if you want a short rifle.

Some years ago it was being recommended that a 12 gauge w slugs was appropriate as a bear protection gun.

I thought about it ... maybe a riot gun with the penetrator slug in a sabot might work and be reasonably portable. Never had to make the choice.

I did find it interesting that at least the Forest Service was suggesting that folks could protect themselves!!!!

No actual experience with bears but this looks on paper like the most effective 12 guage load available.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/technical.html#xterm

Would be my choice for the big bruins.

I also believe that Winchester loads a 385 grain Nosler Partition sabot to about 1900 fps out of a 12 guage.

Shotguns are for birds! The best defense is a handy rifle in a suitable caliber. The marlin GG is a good one due to weight, size, and performaance of heavy cast 45/70 ammo. A shot barreled 375 H&H or 458 win/lott would be better. If you really needed to use a shotgun those dixie slugs do look pretty impressive.


One thimble full of common sense is worth more than a bucket full of firepower when dealing with bears, and most other things for that matter.

I shoot a shotgun hundreds of times a year....I shoot my rifle much less than that. Which do I carry if I need in close protection? My 870. Three brenneke slugs in a gun that I am very familiar with.

I am sure that if I ever have to shoot a bear in those circumstances we are not talking about a 50, 30 or even 20 yard shot. Convert the units to feet and you are about what a bear defense distance would be. I am not even sure sights are needed....

If i am hunting bears, I carry a rifle. I would like my shot to be at a bear in the open at 50 to 100 yards...not a couple of feet.

YMMV,

phil

I've done quite a bit of survey work in brown bear country and have carried both high powered rifles and shotguns for defense. If you need to kill a bear there is no question - a high powered rifle is the better tool. That said, I have seen shotguns kill brown bears.

The biggest advantage of the shotgun is deterent rounds such as cracker shells and rubber slugs can be used to avoid unnecessary kills. Many times we've chased threatening bears with a cracker shell or well placed rubber slug. If you use deterent rounds it is important to train with them and have a good understanding of when they should and should not be used. Our shotguns are always carried loaded with slugs and deterent rounds are loaded and fired individually and only when the situation calls for them.

Shotguns are commonly carried for bear protection in Alaska. It is only the newbies who do not know to use brenekkes.

Those Dixie slugs look appropriate also.

I have met two different men who have shot brown bear with shotguns.

One used the brenekke slugs. He said the slug went all the way through. I do not recall number of shots fired.

The other guy used to guide for bear and used 00 buchshot. I know he shot more that a couple bears and said he only had to ever shoot one bear twice the rest only took one shot. He did like to be close when shooting.

When backcountry camping in Wy, Id or Mt {haven't made it to Ak yet, but soon} I keep a 20" barreled 10 guage with 3 1/2" magnum foster style slugs at the ready as this combo has proven through practice to be very accurate at 25 yards and has alot of impact upon targets and figure at this range would be deadly to the greatest of bears. I have it fitted to the side of my backpack. The shotgun is great power but not allways feasable to carry so I've also adopted a 4" barrelled 500 S&W in a chest style crossdraw for utilitarian purposes such as when fishing. Rodney.

Ahh! When I was young, some forty years ago, I had the pleasure of meeting a friend of my father's called "Tiger" Chapman. He had served in India and was nicknamed "Tiger" for his tiger killing exploits.

He told me, and it was true and not a yarn, that for following up tiger in close brush the preferred weapon was a double barrel 12 bore shotgun loaded with British No6 shot. This being between American No6 and No7 in size at 2.6mm.

I was quite amazed and asked why not slug or buckshot which I knew all about. He told me that at very close range, ten yards or so, "No6 held together remarkably well" and so gave better killing force.

AlsoI suppose but didn't ask if only the head presented it killed better than any slug or buckshot as there wasn't the risk of a close miss as with the larger projectiles.

And I suppose in extreme a blinded tiger can't see you!

Although if asked what step I would take if meeting a wild bear in Alaska my response would be "bloody great long ones in the opposite direction"!

There is one story I read of a guy who shot a bear at 7 yards while hunting grouse with his 20 guage. It planted the bear right there with a shot to the head and #5 shot.

The most popular I have seen personally here in Southwest is a 12 gauge, 'cause folks here aren't wealthy enough to purchase a .458 just to go pick berries. Most white folks carry a .44.

bartsche,

I chartered out my boat and myself to a Fish and Feathers fella to study the lake behind our community in regards to duck count and species.

I noted when I helped him unload from the air commuter that he had a firearm of sorts. Eventually, I asked him if it was a shotgun and he said with a laugh it was. Asked him too what exactly is the type of projectile he will have if to defend himself - I said Brenneke? He agreed along with them sand sack thingy type scare em in the butte type deal-good one. I told Marc the F&G, well, I will carry my 9,3x62 for backing you up and he said.....good idea.

Take it for what you want but I suspect he questions too the full reliability of the caliber he is carrying.

Suppose, to each his own. I would like a long life personally.

Just to touch on the posts about shooting a bear with basically a bird load.
I do have a friend that was quail hunting when he was attacked by a bad domestic bovine bull.
He shot him in the forehead with his 12 gauge from about 15 feet as he was being charged.
He said it blew a hole through his skull the size of snuff can.

This is an old coyote hunter from Idaho that would come down and hunt on the ranch every winter.
He was also the number one marksman of the Royal Candian army in his youth and knew his way around a tough situation.
His explanation is simply that at that close of range the shot has not had time to separate and hits much like a slug.
He told me this story after I had a similiar situation with a bull while out quail hunting and even though I did not have to shoot the bull I said I was dang sure worried since I only had bird shot.
His response was do not ever underestimate a 12 gauge loaded with anything, just let them get under 20 feet before you shoot.

Just a story I thought I would share about a real experiance.

It might be important to note that this isn't hunting bears, it's last second, " Oh Jeez, here it comes!" kinda situation.

Killing, crumpling, folding, crushing, or stopping the charging bear are all secondary to getting the attacking bear to focus on something other than making you a victim or meal. It is true that I now commonly carry a .375 instead of a shotgun because I own one and think it is " more neato," than any shotgun I own, but I never felt under gunned when I carried a shotgun for bear protection.

i
I have experienced jamming many many times with differrent kind of pump action 12 shooters especially when loaded with slugs or brenneke. maybe du to the higher pressure of thses loads and wonder if somebody else had the same experience . i woulden't face a charging bear with a jammed shotgun . isn't better to have break open double instead of pump action? or if the price of gun is matter? what is wrong with a good old relaiable millitary mauser in 8x57 or altered to 8mm06 loaded with 5 healthy rounds loaded with 220 grain bullets @2400+ fps ?
regards
yes

When I worked in Barrow for the North Slope Police Department I carried a Glock 10mm for mile and half walk to work. Obviously the Polar bears are the problem up there.

The department shotguns we rode with were loaded with Brenneke slugs and buckshot in alternating order. I thought this was stupid, but I hated alot of things about working for that outfit.

I would prefer a Marlin 444, 45-70, 450 Marlin, or a AR15 in some 50 or 45 Caliber round like the 50 Beowulf or 458 SOCOM.

Bears are no place to screw around.

A big coastal/kodiak bear or polar bear weighs as much as a cape buffalo, can run down any man that walks.

Nothing wrong with an 8mm-06, though your not talking about a hunting rifle. Your talking about a "STOPPING" rifle.

I tested some Remington 870 slug barrelded some years ago and they penetrated deep in ballistic gelatin, and also various rifles went good there. It was one of the better choices was the 9,3x62 and the 9,3x64 with heavy bullets, the 64 was loaded with 320 grain woodligh, but the 375, 458, 338 win Mag, etc with so heavy a bullet of good quality expanding was the better choice.

But more importantly have the stock fit for you so you use it as snap shooting , and can get 2 shots off at 4 seconds or less. That was the important thing, which calibers is not important if you cant place it there.

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
The department shotguns we rode with were loaded with Brenneke slugs and buckshot in alternating order. .

This was the ammo my buddy was talking about.The buck shot is where I had reservations.

I had some experience with 00-Buck prior to the chalice type wads and the performance beyond 15yards was haphazard at best.A white tail size target at beyond that range may be hit anywhere with one or two 1/4" balls or not. With the improved wads and close up I can see where shot could now be effective.

I dont know about buckshot. my wife had a jar that was full of BB's from fleshing out bears.

between the hair, hide and fat, I would want a good slug IMO.

I much prefer buckshot to a slug for killing power, and up real close, but I reserve all my protection from mean animals of any kind to a big bore rifle. Shotguns are great for birds IMO.

If I had to carry a shotgun-- I would use a 12 ga. with the old remington 1 3/8 copper solids. These shoot into 1 1/2 inches in my 11-87 with the rifled barrel. Great penstration and they don't break up.
I have an sp-10 autolader with the 20 inch barrel with rifle sights and have used the 10 for deer hunting for 20 years. The problem with hte 10 guage is the soft lead. It will expand to about 2 inches and come apart in a whitetail. I don't think I would want to use it on a big bear--- I think it would not penetrate deep enough. It does have great weight a 1 7/8 oz. But someone needs to turn out something designed better.
I suppose I would be just as glad to be carrying my remington 600 in 350 mag with some hot handloads with heavy bullets. If hunting it would be something bigger!!

I'd take a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 or .450 Marlin anyday over a shot gun for bear protection. I don't see many guides in AK using shot guns.

Just mt $.02

Most guides dont carry shotguns because it is standard procedure to put follow up rounds into bears that dont just fall at the shot. For that a shotgun would be useless.

It would be silly for a guide to change guns for bears that are at close range in the brush. Why would anyone swap their 375+ for a shotgun for a bear that is already wounded?

When I lived on Kodiak in the mid 1970s I met an old fella that lived out by himself in Pasagshak in a large frame house without running water. He had lived there since the late 1940s, most of the time in a hand made driftwood shack, and probably killed more bears than most people have seen. I can't remember his name, old age coming through, but he told me that if you let the bear get within 25 feet two rounds of OO buck will kill any bear that ever walked. He wasn't sure if all the lead just weighed them down or what, only that it worked. Jim

12 gauge shotguns seem bulky and heavy to me. Rather have a short handy rifle anyday.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Brainard:
old age coming through, Jim

I,ll be going through Petersburg Sunday afternoon on my way to Point Baker. roger

quote:

he told me that if you let the bear get within 25 feet two rounds of OO buck will kill any bear that ever walked.

At 25' (less than 10 yards) a couple loads of 00 Buckshot will ruin the day of almost anything that doesn't have the skull of a cape buffalo. I'm not sure folks realize how devastating that load can be at close range!!!!! At 50 yards it isn't chickenfeed either but at 5 yards.....

Whether it's a twelve gauge, a .458, or something else, the gun you should be carrying in a hairy situation oughta be the gun you're most familiar with and have the most confidence in.
That having been said, my personal choice for self protection would be my own sxs, 3", 12 ga. that I've owned and hunted with for 46 years.

I checked on the Dxie Slugs website and a 750gr .730"dia slug traveling at 1200fps could ruin most any animals day.They also offer a 600gr load. Also 2 tri ball loads that may be to do the job. Yes I would agreed that most over the counter offering are more suited for deer and the like game. But my shotgun with a short barrel fits like a glove, and I know that I can shuck shells faster than most can crank a bolt. IMHO

When we train for bear protection we use bolts, levers and pumps. The pump by far is the fastest. We have a moving target with a bear picture on it. It comes at you and you have to react. With a bolt, most can get off two shots, some can

When we train for bear protection we use bolts, levers and pumps. The pump by far is the fastest. We have a moving target with a bear picture on it. It comes at you and you have to react. With a bolt, most can get off two shots, some can

If I wasn’t hunting but wanted a shoulder carry weapon for protection in bear country I’d opt for a Winchester Model 97 with a 20â€-22†extra-full choke barrel (basically a turn of century full choke barrel); fondly known as a “trench sweeper†during WWI. I used one in the early ‘70’s; loved its external hammer and lack of a trigger disconnect…no faster pump shotgun made, just hold the trigger down and pump away – fires with each stroke of the pump.

Six 00-buck 12 pellet rounds rapid fired from waist level will shred fist-sized holes in a plywood silhouette target at 25 yards and with a bit of practice these six shots will impact within less than a 10†diameter. And shoulder aimed fire it is only slightly less damaging out to 75 yards.

Use an open-choke barrel and fire as fast as you can pump and you’ll totally understand why the M97 was referred to as a “trench sweeperâ€.

Now that is a blast from the past.A M97 Winnie.My dad hunted with one for years.Yes Used in WW1 but also Vietnam. Boy that gun in 3", slicker than owl $%&*.

quote:

Originally posted by flickt:
Now that is a blast from the past.A M97 Winnie.My dad hunted with one for years.Yes Used in WW1 but also Vietnam. Boy that gun in 3", slicker than owl $%&*.

And death on your thumb to boot! roger

If you're hunting bear, any kind of bear, and your hunting rifle doesn't anchor him, are you going to wish you had a trusty 12 guage when you wade into the pucker brush after him? Nope, you'll use what you have at the moment, and it will most likely be in the order of 30-06 on up.
In my case, that's a .375 H&H, which I have great faith in, but sometimes adrenilin trumps foot pounds of energy in a gun fight, and the bear forgets that he's dead. just plain refuses to give up the ghost without spreading around a little carnage on whatever's handy.
Just a question. You want to pump him full of buckshot slugs with your fast handling 870 of Beneli? Hell, you're only going to get two rounds off at best before he shakes hands with you. I'll take a rifle anyday with a heavy weight, heavy penetrating slug, lever or bolt gun I don't care. I believe they will carry more knockdown power than the slower moving slugs, and buckshot just ain't gonna git in there pilgrim.
If I'm wandering along minding my own business, like here in the Bob Marshall Wilderness or the Beartooth, my .44; handloads, or Garrett's .44 handloads, at combat ranges will be just as effective has that big ass .500 S&W. A .45-70 lever gun, 8 X 57 mauser or 30.06 with heavy long for caliber bullets for deep penetration, .375 or .458 with well constructed soft points are more practical for defense. Now, if I wand to eat grouse or rabbit for camp fare, then the shotgun might come in handy.
In the end, if I am actually worried about a bear fight, I want the biggest meanest sumbich I can comfortably carry all day and handle with ease, confidence and AUTHORITY.
I'd leave the shotgun for in town social occasions.
Just IMO>