I am exploring the possibility of hunting brown bear in Alaska soon. The information on this forum has been very helpful, especially concerning choices for rifle and handgun calibers. The most popular choice for a "protection" back-up handgun seems to be a large-caliber revolver like a .44 Mag. If I am proficient with my .45 ACP 1911 would that gun be reasonable to take along (with reliable mags, of course) instead of buying another revolver? I am assuming that the relatively slow muzzle velocity would not be a liability at close ranges.

Thanks,

Peter

Personally I would forget the handgun and become proficient with my rifle and never let it get farther than an arm's length. My feeling about killing a Grizzly or Brown with a handgun is NOT. The energy of a 45 ACP is most often less than 500 ft. lbs.of energy, I favor a rifle with at least 3000 ft.lbs/energy for Grizzlies and Browns. Will a 45 ACP kill these animals under ideal conditions? Yes! What about not so ideal conditions? If I am going to be a statistic then let me have a rifle with me so my family won't say "What tha heck was he thinking"!

I thought it would be the perfect thing to take my Ruger Super Red Hawk.480 hunting in Alaska. I wanted it because I had a single shot rifle. Don't bother taking a hand gun!!!
It will stay at base camp because you will not want the extra weight after the first day.
Just get to shooting your rifle well and keep it with you, even for the toilet trips and runs for water.

A guy here in Alberta just killed a sow grizzly that was protecting its 3 cubs with a hunting knife.

The 45 ACP is not the best choice but the best choice in my opinion is to keep on fighting with whatever you have.

Personally I carry a 44mag for bear protection.

MVR


The 1911 in 45ACP is my favorite handgun.

I carried one on my first 2 black bear hunts, they were in Griz country.

After seeing a few bears up close I now always carry at least a 4"44 Mag.

Also a semi-auto is not the best choice for protection when you might find your self grappling with the bear.
If something interfears with the cycling of the slide, then your pistol will "jam".

Thus I prefer the revolver.

I can see not wanting to buy a 44 for this one trip, so if you do take the 45 ACP load it with Buffalo Bores 230gr Flat Point ammo.

Also if there are grouse or ptarmargin where you will be hunting take some Speer Shotshells.

I have killed several grouse with them in 44 Mag AND in 45 ACP. They work very well.

Go over to You Tube and look for "bear attacks".

With a powerful handgun, you at least have a chance.

MVR,

if it is for backup then I would offer the suggestion of getting that chest carry rig for the .44 mag. or under the arm pit rig. I personally leave mine on when in camp, many small chores to do most of the time. At night it is by my head when I sleep.

I would not opt for the 1911 not when the .44 mag and others will penetrate better without a doubt-if recoil is a considering factor look into the .357 mag with hardcast.

just my .02

Thank you all for your advice. It looks like I will just HAVE to buy another gun IF I choose to take a handgun at all.

N E 450 No 2: I recently saw an ad for Taurus' "Judge" revolver with a long cylinder. I never realized that you could shoot shot shells out of standard handguns. What does the shot do to the rifling?

The Speer shotshells do not hurt the rifleing, near as I can tell, and I have shot a LOT of them.

If you do not want to buy another gun, just take the 45ACP.
I would much rather have the 1911 than nothing.

However if you spend a lot of time hunting you might consider a S&W 4" 44 Mag. The Mountain Gun is a good choice.

I always carry mine in the De Santis crossdraw holster.

In the non bear areas of the lower 48 you do not have to always carry full power Magnum rounds.

I sometimes take my 40 S&W hiking.....I consider it a great noisemaker with possible usefulness as a weapon vs. bears. A larger pistol might be a more viable weapon. Trust your rifle, and keep it close.

Have a good hunt,

Dan

I take my 45 out from time to time. I think it is better than nothing. Mine is an EAA witness with a ten round clip.

45? At least it's better than a .38.

N E 450 No2,

I have been reading some forum exchanges (elsewhere) about the relative merits of the standard 4" S&W .44 versus the Mountain Gun version. What do you make of the pro's and con's of weight versus recoil? At the de Santis website I could not make out the specific holster model that you mentioned; can you provide more details?

Thanks.

A 45ACP is better than nothing, but a .454 Casull is much better.

Ray, I had 2 of them. talk about a shooter and some lethal power! 4" bbl MVR, easy tote, I have 2 of them, both Smiths.

Gentlemen,

Any thoughts on a .44 Mag in S&W versus Ruger?

Ruger Redhwk is gonna be heavier, built quite well, have one in a .45 Colt 5 1/2"bb.-packable. Was thinking off Bowen doing some mods to it, the Smith is quite packable in comparison, more compact if you will in its design. The Smith to me has a more fit to finish design than the Ruger and carrys well strong side or cross draw better if packing or on a 4 wheeler etc... The Smith & Wesson provides the buyer with many options - Custom shop specials if money is not an object.

I done replaced some springs by Wolff in my Smiths and they are smooth and very accurate. I reload so costs of bullet purchase is cheap. I shoot pretty much Beartooth Bullets with either Unique or H110 lit by a pistol mag primer, big frontal area on them hardcast.

I had Kirkpatrick make me up a rig and it was spendy but worth the money- a handsome rig for one of my Ruger .45 Colts. Bianchi is the ones I buy for my Smiths.

300 grn bullets in both calibers are up to any task in America or you can go higher in bullet weight but the .44 mag will be a rip snorting son of a gun compared to the .45 LC.

good day

quote:

Originally posted by MVR:
Gentlemen,

Any thoughts on a .44 Mag in S&W versus Ruger?

If you want to use some of the more robust loads, the ruger Redhawk is the way to go. Garret, for example, only recommends using their + loads in a Redhawk.

MVR

The model of the De Santis holster is called the Dual Angle Hunter.

I prefer the S&W over the Ruger.

I have both the "regular" and the Mountain Gun in 44 Mag 4".

The Mountain Gun is a little lighter, and does kick a little more, it isa just pure physics, but It is hare to tell them apart.

Either one would be your best bet.

They are the best combination of size, weight, power, controlability, and shootability.

Anything bigger or longer and it will be a burden, and left in the tent.

I carry either Garretts hard cast loads, or Federal 300gr Cast Core loads.
At the deer lease I usually carry Speer 270 Softs.

I ALWAYS have a lot of Speer shotshells on hand.

leave the 45 with the wife , more likeley to need it there. the only reason i would feel better briging a pistol is tent camping someplace like A B C islands of s.e. alaska or kodiak where bear populations are real high, then leave the pistol in camp dont be packin extra junk around the woods. used ruger blackhawks are cheap and if blued just put some outers metal seal on it. and some hard kickers 454 or super lites ect are so violent that the bullets jump the crimp then jam the gun

o.k., which would be better , if no other options available?

.357 4" v. 1911 5"

I have carried a .44 S&W mountain gun quite a bit in Alaska. They are great guns but the S&W's just aren't made for a steady diet of heavy loads whereas the Ruger is (but it's much heavier and tiring to carry). I wouldn't pick the Ruger over the S&W but I am out carrying more than most so weight matters to me.

I just bought a 2nd mtn gun yesterday for a friend who wanted something to carry up here. They are great choices. Make sure you use hard cast lead bullets instead of hollow points.

If you are hunting with a guide the handgun (or any backup) makes less sense than if you are self-guided IMO. In Alaska, and bush flying in particular, your overall weight of baggage is a serious issue and even more so if you are hiking very much.

quote:

.357 4" v. 1911 5"

the .357 mag will provide more powder capacity/greater velocities thus greater penetration with "hardcast". Penetration-that is the key factor. I would opt for a revolver over a auto loader in the back woods.

my .02

It seems the mountain gun is pretty popular here. I have done some general Google searches as well as searches on GunBroker and GunsAmerica to find one for sale. I see only two in stainless .44. Any other suggestions for finding one for sale?

auction arms

MVR,

Leave the handgun at home. If you are taking a rifle adequate for brown bear there is no need for a handgun. If you carry it in the field it will always be hauling your pants down, on the outside of the coat you want to take off or inside the coat you have on. I do know two guys personally that killed bears in self defense with a handgun but in both cases if they had their rifles handy they would not have had to use the handgun. In your case unless you move to Alaska you will be required to have a guide and of course he will be armed also.

Mark

griz007 and y.d. your points are well taken.

y.d. just left the palmer area, that area is booming with construction even the roads in the middle of the night.

Don't push the muzzle agaist the animal or the disconector will activate.

Mark,

I understand the rationale for preferring a rifle for protection, but you do mention two guys who killed bears with handguns because their rifles were not handy. When I think of my activities in even a small camp I can easily envision being a good distance away from a rifle placed in a relatively accessible spot. Is it reasonable to expect to be able always to keep a rifle handy enough to thwart a surprise attack? Perhaps a good compromise would be to leave the handgun at the camp for use there, as Anukpuk suggests. I ask only because I have never been to Alaska and am not familiar with what one does on a typical hunting day.

Peter

Peter, my brother in law and his wife just killed a bear that was poking around, it first stayed away and then balls an all came right up within 10ft of them-no return. It was killed outright because they were armed. Point is there is no universally correct answer but to be prepared. Take it for what it is worth-it is your life.

edit: he blamed the incident on a new bug spray that smelled like an orange(shrug)who knows why.

I read an article published a few years back in the Alaska magazine. If a hand gun is chosen they stated flatly to use only high quality hardened solid lead slugs. Copper jacketed bullets could not be relied on for good penetration.

I have two Super Red Hawks. one in .44 mag and one in .480 Ruger. Both are great guns. But I would still leave them at home or in camp.

I was thinking one of the new Ruger Alaskan rifles in .375 Ruger with a 20 inch barrel might be just the gun for hunting the lower alder thickets.

.......Anything is better than nothing ., But 1911s are heavey ...A nice little 357 with a good hard heavy bullet or larger is good .. A 10 mm baby Glock would be much better than a 45 ACP ..A 45 Rowland would be nice .. But with all the loot you need to dump into a 1911 I would go for a nice little 44 revolver.. A 300 gr bullet @ 1100 fps or more works ok ..Mainly just use a rifle that will knock a bear down and keep it there for a good long while , and pay attention ...The 375 Ruger Alaskan would be first choice...It will do all things well .....

I do carry a Kimber Stainless Gold Match for a sidearm here in AZ when we go on family hikes. It was a .40S&W I converted it to a 10MM. I also have a Kimber in .45 ACP that I will carry. Both guns are completely dependable. I have way over 10 thousand of rounds through the .45 with out a single jam. I used to shoot IPSIC and IDPA matches with it. I only carry a sidearm when I chose not to carry a rifle.

I built a 10MM so I would have a flatter shooting cal. for the rare mountain lion or two legged problem animal. With the drug and illegal alien trade here in the desert southwest I think you would be crazy to go out unarmed. But those two predators are very different from a Brown Bear. For Brown Bear I would choose a rifle every time.

Grizz007
What type of firearm did your brother-in-law use?

he used his Winchester pre-64 .338 win. mag w/250 grn. partitions. He carries the handgun I sold him some yrs. back a Super Blkhw .44 mag. Lance stands 6'5" and weighs 245#, said he initially charged the bear first and the bear took off and came back figuring he could outdo Lance-didn't work.

I have a great friend that has lived, hunted and trapped in Alaska, and I was talking this over with him. He went into a very serious state of mind and said that the 45ACP was a very well suited pistol to carry for bear protection. He went on to say, in a very serious manner, that the 45ACP should be prepared for the defensive use against bear. He said that first you should start with a 180 grit compound for polishing the front site and work your way up to 600 grit and polish the front site basicly off the front of the pistol. He went to great lengths to make note that the top, front portion of the ejection port should be polished and that this was a difficult job and might best be left to a professional. He mentioned that reblueing was not really necessary because all this prep work was really for,was when you shot the bear with your 45ACP and the bear then stuck the pistol up your ass, it would not hurt nearly as much either going in or when the doctor took it out.

The choice between the Mountain Gun and the standard 4" is personnal. I shoot the standard 4" because I shoot it better than a Mountain Gun. The weight difference is only a few ounces, but those ounces are out at the barrel where it makes a difference in balance.

My 4" 629 started life as an 8-3/8" custom deluxe. I sent it to S&W's custom shop about a year ago and they installed the shorter barrel. As I recall, the cost was just over $200 and they had Mountain Gun barrels in stock as well.

One way to get a Mountain Gun is to get a diffferent version, and send it to the S&W Custom shop for a rebarrel.

I am performing wildlife surveys along the Kuskokwim River, and have been since May of this year. I did the same last year, May to October. I carry two .45's in a Galco Miami rig. They are loaded with standard Ball and hot hollowpoints alternating. I feel a second sidearm is a faster reload than another magazine.

My partner carries a .44 Desert Eagle (or Desert Ego if you are so inclined). He wanted a .50, but ammo has to come from Anchorage or be reloaded, so his choice for the .44. He loves it and so do I. It is a physically large sidearm so it may not be suitable for smaller hands. It is heavy too, but that is a plus in my reasoning for controllability.

In our area, it will be far more probable to see a black bear than a brownie. I am comfortable with the .45 for the blackie, but not so much for the brownie. That is why my partner has the .44.

I'm fairly convinced that a .44 Mag revolver would be a reasonable back-up to have in bear country. If I find myself in what I understand is ideal brown bear country -- constantly windy, wet -- should I stay away from leather holsters or is there a reliable treatment (Scotchguard? mink oil?) to keep them from degrading?

I agree with Mark Young (actually,I usually do which either means we're both stupid or both smart).

If you're on a guided hunt,the handgun will be excess baggage.

When I lived in Alaska,circumstances forced me to kill a medium sized grizzly with a pistol on one occasion but one needs to consider that I lived in the bush 24/7.

A rifle was usually nearby and I consider the handgun to be a very poor choice for bear protection.It's like asking a boy to do a man's job.

Rely on your rifle.

ray;

what caliber , load and barrel length did you use to kill the bear?

quote:

Originally posted by cold zero:
ray;

what caliber , load and barrel length did you use to kill the bear?

Living as I did,I did not have a big gun collection.Few living in the bush do.

There's an old saying...you dance with the one that brung ya.The only handgun in my possession was a S&W model 29 44 mag with 6 1/2 inch barrel.The load was a hard cast Keith bullet backed by a healthy dose of 2400.

I shot him in the head (twice for security).It wouldn't have mattered what I was using from a 357 mag on up.