I,'ve had an almost irresistible urge to get a .264 Win Mag for quite a while now, so I,'ll be bringing one home in a month or two..
And recently, the strange desire to go hunting mountain goats has almost turned into an obsession. Had initially thought the .264, with 140s out of a 26" tube should be plenty for goat, but I,m starting to question that idea.. No time crunch, so I,'ve got plenty of time if bigger is better for bad Billies... I,'ve got a 9.3x62 that would probably do the job, but at a scoshe over 9 lbs, a bit heavy, and I have concerns about a .366 opening up quickly and putting one down fast, as opposed to just punching on through and watching a goat do a swan dive..

So I,m wondering if I would be better off rounding up a .300 Win Mag for the endeavor?? Should be able to get the gun coming in right around 7 1/2-8 lbs, not a lot lighter, but it helps.. Not often opposed to a good excuse for another gun..
And it seems like a .30 cal at 168-180 grains clipping along should have enough zip zap to anchor a goat without kicking the hell out of me...
So, asking questions, .264 do the job, or is that pushing things??

The .264 is a great choice for goats. Goats are not large, and they do not have heavy bones. A 130-140 grain bullet will be plenty.

What they are is tough. I have been in on several hunts for them, and some of them just soak up lead. A bigger caliber isn't going to change that, IMO. You have to break the shoulders to anchor them on the spot. Even then, one good kick and off they go down the mountain.

Jeremy

I shot my goat w 300 Win Mag 180 gr Swift A frame. It was a raking shot from 260 yds. The goat hardly reacted to the shot. He sauntered off into the bushes and then came out and lay down on a little ledge. He then bled out and fell down the cliff where I recovered him (minus one horn which the taxidermist was able to fix). I've heard similar stories about goats not showing much initial reaction to hits w 375 H&H. I watched my friend shoot a goat w 243 with almost exact same result as my goat (walked off at shot, lay down, bled out, then fell). I think it has something to do with their nervous system where they don't react to the shot initially even when fatally hit.

Agree with the others. Your 264 with a good controlled expansion bullet will work fine. Your 9.3x62 might not offer a flat enough trajectory for the job.

Mark

Jack O'Connor got it done a lot of times with a 270 Win.

So no question on the 264's capabilities and effectiveness.

I happen to be re-reading one of Jack's books at the minute. The Hunting Rifle.

My personal experience of goats I've killed.7 mag the goat took 4 shots & walked 60 yards.270 Winchester goat 4 shots & went over the cliff. Switched to 375 h&h with 300gr barnes on last 4 goats, 2 were head on & 2 broadside,they staggered and done!One shot each no walking off.

7mm SAUM with a 140 AB at 3000 fps. One shot at 107 yards. My goat took half a step and moved no further.

What Farbedo said, plus one!

quote:

Originally posted by hvrhunter:
My personal experience of goats I've killed.7 mag the goat took 4 shots & walked 60 yards.270 Winchester goat 4 shots & went over the cliff. Switched to 375 h&h with 300gr barnes on last 4 goats, 2 were head on & 2 broadside,they staggered and done!One shot each no walking off.

Yep. Experience speaks volumes.

My one and only mountain goat was taken with a .270 Win using factory Norma USA 120 gr Kalahari ammo at an approximate range of 200 yards. One of the quickest kills I've ever witnessed. Lights out at the shot. The .264 Win Mag will be plenty. Good luck.

Oh hell yeah! Perfect mountain rifle.

Killed one of my goats with a .338 and the other goat with a .358. I think the .264 is to light with a .130-.140 grain bullet. Goats are tough and if not anchored will bail off the mountain either destroying the cape and horns or becoming unretrievable. Goat has a lot of muscle on the front end ! Better to go big and come home with your trophy than going light and possibly losing it.

I've taken only one goat, a large billy at 430 yards. 7mm Rem mag, 160 TSX's. Shot #one through the shoulders did not put him down. I can't tell you the goat's weight, but it was a struggle for two of us to move him away from a ledge.

I've used many of the modern premium bullets and believe the TSX to be the most effective.

quote:

Originally posted by Muttly:
I,'ve had an almost irresistible urge to get a .264 Win Mag for quite a while now, so I,'ll be bringing one home in a month or two..
And recently, the strange desire to go hunting mountain goats has almost turned into an obsession. Had initially thought the .264, with 140s out of a 26" tube should be plenty for goat, but I,m starting to question that idea.. No time crunch, so I,'ve got plenty of time if bigger is better for bad Billies... I,'ve got a 9.3x62 that would probably do the job, but at a scoshe over 9 lbs, a bit heavy, and I have concerns about a .366 opening up quickly and putting one down fast, as opposed to just punching on through and watching a goat do a swan dive..

So I,m wondering if I would be better off rounding up a .300 Win Mag for the endeavor?? Should be able to get the gun coming in right around 7 1/2-8 lbs, not a lot lighter, but it helps.. Not often opposed to a good excuse for another gun..
And it seems like a .30 cal at 168-180 grains clipping along should have enough zip zap to anchor a goat without kicking the hell out of me...
So, asking questions, .264 do the job, or is that pushing things??

A .264 will kill them for sure. I shot mine with a .300 win mag but would not hesitate with a .264.
They are tough animals but all animals are tough when it gets down to it.

My uncle took over 10 goats with his 270---was perfectly happy with it. I can't imagine that a 264 WM would be any less effective--have used both a lot.

No doubt you will need a 408 CheyTac to kill your mountain goat. :-) anything else will no doubt bounce right off him. .
Or Not!

Really, if Phil, or Jim's wife can cleanly kill a brown bear with an 06 or 300 Savage. Don't you think you can kill a goat with a 264?

My reccomendation for a great goat rifle is the same as my rec for an anything ruminate rifle. A 6.5 Creedmoor in an 18.5" barreled Ruger M77 Mk2 Hawkeye bolt action carbine. . 130 gr Swift Sirocco with a mv of around 2800 fps. . From what I've seen on caribou it puts them on the ground just as fast as the 06. The whole thing is putting the bullet in the right place. !!!! If the 270 can kill one then the 6.5s can kill them just as well!!!
A 264 is a great round. I agree that it will make a great long range rifle if you have to take a really long shot. I imagine you will be hunting up The Behm somewhere.
Knowing what its like there I don't think true long range is what's needed. . Since my.little 6.5 Creedmoor carbine kills bull caribou at 300 yards just like right now. It will kill a 250 lb billy goat just as well. Jim Harrower told me he used a 264 for his sheep rifle and iirc a 243 . Waterrat got a nice goat. I don't know what he used. Friends of mine on Baranof used their boring old 06s and they worked fine. Whether a goat takes a jump off a cliff has more to do with the goat than the bullet its killed with. Or maybe a Lazzaroni 375 might do it. But I doubt it will .

My one and only goat was taken with a .300 Win and 180 Ballistic Tip. 325 yards with a 30 degree up slope. My friend and advisor on all things mountain related told me that I had to either drop that particular goat where he was, or let him drop, but under no circumstances could he be allowed to cross the ridge he was on or the recovery would be impossible. In short, keep shooting.

The first shot was through one shoulder and the lungs, it scampered a short distance and paused long enough to take one up the rear and then a last through the neck and back of the skull. He fell nearly down to our level but didn't break anything. I have no doubt that he was done after the first one, but there was no room for taking chances.

I don't think its so much that goats are super tough, as that they are hardwired to stay on their feet. That stands to reason, some animals are programed to run, some to keep up with the herd, others to hide and some to fight. It makes sense that a goat would spend his last efforts on maintaining his footing.

I like the .264 Win. Its probably a better .270 than the .270 is.

Gotta admit, did consider a .416, just for the wing nut appeal. Discarded the idea, as too heavy, probably too slow to open if I don't get shoulders.
I,'ll most likely be going after the local goats in the sub-tropical SE Alaska area of Ketchikan. Bout a twenty minute drive south from my place, then it,s a bit of a hike to where you start seeing goats.
Had a .270, pretty accurate little push feed Winchester, just never did really warm up to it. Sold it off to help finance another 9.3..
Don't recall ever having an interest in the .264 Win Mag until a buddy of mine brought one out to the range, figured I oughta at least take a shot. Love at first shot, like running across a really good hot sauce, kept having to take just one more shot..

Gotta remember that often goats are taken at longer ranges where bullets that may open too fast at closer ranges come into their own at the longer ranges. A controlled expansion bullet may not be so good at the longer ranges where velocity has fallen off.

One of the popular bullets used in the 300WM and 7mmRM for our shooting of chamois and tahr in the Alps is the Hornady SST which opens up nicely at long range doing a lot of internal damage and anchoring these animals.

A good bull tahr dropped of a bluff into a snow basin at close to 400m with a 7mmRM and 162gr SST, a nanny behind also dropped to the shot.

The Himalayan bull tahr is probably the toughest mountain goat of all with massive muscular front shoulders and a thick long haired coat, and I have seen the SST's work extremely well on these animals when shot out of the magnums which will reach out and hit hard.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
My one and only goat was taken with a .300 Win and 180 Ballistic Tip. 325 yards with a 30 degree up slope. My friend and advisor on all things mountain related told me that I had to either drop that particular goat where he was, or let him drop, but under no circumstances could he be allowed to cross the ridge he was on or the recovery would be impossible. In short, keep shooting.

The first shot was through one shoulder and the lungs, it scampered a short distance and paused long enough to take one up the rear and then a last through the neck and back of the skull. He fell nearly down to our level but didn't break anything. I have no doubt that he was done after the first one, but there was no room for taking chances.

I don't think its so much that goats are super tough, as that they are hardwired to stay on their feet. That stands to reason, some animals are programed to run, some to keep up with the herd, others to hide and some to fight. It makes sense that a goat would spend his last efforts on maintaining his footing.

I like the .264 Win. Its probably a better .270 than the .270 is.

That's about the whole story, right there, whatever you shoot them with put it through the shoulders, they won't go far with a boiler room hit but they don't need to either to be irrecoverable. I've yet to own a .264 but its hard to argue that it certainly appears to be the perfect mountain goat round, along with the .270 WSM and Bee. Ain't no flies on a .300 either for those happy with one, as four out of six mountain goat clients this year carried .300s of some persuasion. Seems the .264 will let you cut some weight on the rifle and maintain something kind to the shoulder.

quote:

That's about the whole story, right there, whatever you shoot them with put it through the shoulders

And keep shooting.

As some one said the last words of a trophy fee gone bad, don't shoot again you hit him hard the first time.

That's the truth, second, and third shots are cheap insurance. Plus, why travel all that way to shoot once? I see it as bang for your buck!

A good friend here has killed nice big sheep with his 6mm Remington, 7×57, 270+30/06 . He has also killed trophy bull elk with the same rifle . including the 6 mm.
You need a 300 to kill a goat about as much as you need a 378 to kill a goat.
The mid velocity 6.5s are ideal. 6.5×47 Lapua, 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Remington, 6.5×55 Swede. Even with a short little barrel they will start a 140 gr bullet at over 2600 fps they are seriously mild to shoot making them very easy to be very accurate with. Which is what will hill a goat or any other animal for that matter.
But , a 264 will work great. Just more blast and recoil and rifle weight. In the days of ballistically inefficient bullets, maybe starting bullets a lot faster gave more range. With today's bullets its not a big deal. There's a good difference in the flight characteristic's of a 140 gr SGK and a 140 gr SST, Hunting VLD , AccuBond LR, ect. And now the new 143 gr Hornady bullet. A bullet with a G1 of .6 or thereabouts, just keeps flying along.

While I certainly wouldn't argue a moderate cartridge launching a high BC 6mm-7mm won't kill things, if a client asked if he should bring a 6.5x55 or a .264 Mag for mountain goat the choice is pretty clear. Magnums and velocity aren't about any increase in killing power, they're about getting the bullet to the animal with less drift, drop, and fanfare. Oh, and indeed killing power- not at 150 yards, but rather 450. The fast cartridges will allow you to extend your point blank range a good deal, even the lowly .270 with a 110gr TSX allows a +/-3.5" trajectory to 350 yards when sighted in at 300. A .264 will better this slightly, and a .300 with the right load matches it. Our average shot on mountain goat is about 275 yards so far, that's holdover country for a 7x57 or 6.5x47. Yes they'll kill out there just swell, but a lot more thinking gets involved to do it, especially if you stretch to 500 of which two clients did successfully this year. It's one thing as a resident hunter who can return next week, another thing as a client paying $1000 a day plus fees. That 520 yard 11" billy may never be closer, and a .264 or .300 is a handy tool in sealing tha deal. You certainly don't HELP yourself by choosing a moderate cartridge.

Get right down to it, I could go after a mountain goat with a long bow, pretty sure a 200 grain single bevel would kill one. However, think I like the odds better if I,m using a rifle. And since I have zero experience putting the critters down, I,m asking questions rather than make assumptions. The reputation they have is for being tough bastards to anchor, so I,d rather do a little due diligence beforehand.

Your .264 idea is about as close to an ideal mountain goat cartridge as exists, you're on a good track. A hundred other cartridges will do the job and well, right down to the .243, but none are going to outperform the .264 Win Mag or that class (.270 WSM, 7mm Rem Mag, etc).

Maybe I shouldn't even post this. But, I back up Angus, sounds like he knows what he's saying to me. I've never hunted goats, nor fired a .264. My sole experience is way out of date. Back in 1963 my uncle just retired from the AF and in Germany bought a fine Sako .264 thinking it was God's gift to elk hunters. I have no idea what bullets he used and no doubt 50 years ago way less good than the poorest we have these days.

He shot three elk with that thing and had surface blow ups on all of them I fully believe, never caught up so no proof to that assumption. I don't think they were over 200 yards. I spent four days tracking them and never caught sight of any of them dripping blood the whole distance for several miles. To me, that's proof of poor bullet results. He was always a fine shot and did a lot of it and hunted the world of big game and small.

My only purpose in stating this is to advise you to make damned sure you use a good bullet and put it where it belongs. You do those two things you'll have your goat.

I had a surface blow up at 200 yards on the ribs of a cow elk, my second poor hit offhand put her down. With of all bullets a 180 C/L. I figure it was just one defective bullet as I'd loaded 300 rounds from the same batch, same loads in the same session. All .300Win's. There's been more than 60 elk killed from this same batch and not a problem with any of them. Six I know of were shot within 50 yards and two in the timber at about 30-50 feet. Bullets that fast that close blow big holes in things but, never a surface blow up as I had. WHY? Since that happened "just once" I've gone to 200gr Sierra Game kings, hell of it is I haven't had a game shot since. Now my health has gone to H and likely will never go hunting again. So I may never know how they'd work.

This is worth repeating though: "good bullet, put where it belongs and you'll have your goat."

Best to you all,
George

Good post George, and completely agree, when you ramp up velocity you can't be cheap on bullets. While others I respect here aren't a fan of them, I still like Barnes TSXs, and then the standbys A-Frames, Partitions if you can stomach the ballistic coefficients. The Accudbond is also effective from the little I've seen of it, I'm not as keen on the ballistic tip. The Speer trophy bear claw, or whatever it's being called today, is also fantastic. One possible exception is if you are anticipating a 500 yard shot, this happens over open terrain above the alpine, in that case the soft / lightly constructed bullets start to lead for the first time in terminal performance. This is the exception not the rule as I wouldn't encourage anyone to shoot at 500 unless they were well practiced there and confident. I'm getting sidetracked however...

Should work fine.

I've shot 3 Billies

270 Win with 130 gr core-lokt

300 wsm 168 gr TSX

280 AI 168 Berger


I would use any one of those again. If you can hit where you aim under mountain conditions, you will be fine.

quote:

I had a surface blow up at 200 yards on the ribs of a cow elk,

Any chance you hit something close to the elk.

My daughter shot deer fair amount of blood deer ran and ran did not recover it. 180gr hornaday

Closer inspection of the site revealed the bullet passed through a small tree first.

All I can figure is the bullet but off some fragments. I had the same thing happen with another deer track it for a long ways never did catch up to it. 150gr bronze pt.

Another close inspection revealed another clipped sapling.

Impact vel out of a 300wm would be some where around 2600fps @ 200 yards hard to believe any 180gr .308 bullet would blow up at that velocity

This is one of the reasons I recommend if the animal is still moving keep shooting ammo is cheap compared to a lost animal and hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by farbedo:
The .264 is a great choice for goats. Goats are not large, and they do not have heavy bones. A 130-140 grain bullet will be plenty.

What they are is tough. I have been in on several hunts for them, and some of them just soak up lead. A bigger caliber isn't going to change that, IMO. You have to break the shoulders to anchor them on the spot. Even then, one good kick and off they go down the mountain.

Jeremy

Correct. Goats are phlegmatic. Their nervous system doesn't react as quickly to 'shock'. A conventional 125 - 140 would be perfect. Whatever shoots the most accurately in your rifle. Switch to a Woodleigh 140 PPSN for all (much) larger soft skinned antelope/game.

My Remington 700 .264WM heated up barrels very fast and it was a slow process during load development.

I one had a guide on a goat hunt that swore by the 264. Never shot one myself.

PDS:
Not a chance of that. Wide open clear hillside
16" of snow, I was laying down with a good solid rest over a snow covered rock size of a car, steady shot. Direct solid hit to the ribs. Hit right on one, blew 2-3" x 9" patch of hide off the ribs, never even entered the near lung.
Knocked her down and started sliding down the hill toward me. I had started up by then and when she got up and took off I made a bad offhand shot and hit top of hips and spined her. Had to finish her up with a pistol shot to the head once I got close enough. It was just that one defective bullet. Remington admitted that: "we've had reports of that happening, we recommend you switch to the new fancy high priced factory ammo with the new core lokts". I'd rather not go again if I had to shoot factory ammo!

Thanks,
George

I have not hunted goats, but I have hunted in steep mountains.

So many good calibers have been suggested.

I think I would concentrate on finding the lightest, easiest to carry rifle I could find in one of them, make sure I was using a good bullet, make sure I practiced shooting, and go with that.

That's truly the gist of it, it's mostly about a rifle you can carry for days, and the second aspect is a cartridge with a flat trajectory that isn't punishing to shoot from that light rifle.

i have a 416 ruger, thats 5lb 11oz that i shoot out to 400 yards....that would be my goat gun i guess...

Ouch! I will bet it isn't fun to shoot.

http://www.morrisonarms.com/20...s-their-chamberings/

I wrote a blurb on mountain rifle suggestions, in particular regarding choices for mountain goats, so that I can share the link with clients asking rifle and chambering questions instead of copying sections of emails. It still needs an edit so I'm only sharing it here for the moment, in light of the current discussion it seemed pertinent.

its not bad to shoot larry, folks have alot of preconcieved notions about light weight bigger bores. this is my secdond sub 6.5lb 416 and i'll never go back to a normal (7.5+lb) rifle if i can help it!

26 Nosler 129 grain ABLR at 3400fps at 312 yards.
I shot him close to dark and my camera did crap for pictures so this was the next morning.