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Lets see, the poll was for "bear defense." Not bear HUNTING!  I've been in Alaska since 1966, killed more than my share of bears. I've killed Bears with everything from a 280 Rem. up to and including 458 Win. For Bear DEFENSE, give me a Rem. 870 with OO or OOO buck. The word DEFENSE, means to me the bear is charging. That means he is running directly at you, very fast, with his head down and ears laid back. He will be looking directly at you. If you have the balls to wait until he gets 50 to 25 feet from you, then put a few OO or OOO buck in his face/eyes, he will decide maybe he made a mistake and go some where else. If he can't see you, he may have a problem eating you. Notice, no where in my post did I say "KILL" the bear? Important point.  The object is not to kill the bear, the object is to keep the bear from killing you! Sorry if I disagree with you rat. I'm not city folk and I don't guide on the river! | |||
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And if the bear decides that he didn't make a mistake then what? | |||
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George Roof My bear business is nearing the 100 mark and I;ve never been charged,(we don't Mark Sullivan up here). I've been very close to alot of bears without freaking out and blasting at them as most are prone to do as well. You can't possibly speak with any kind of authority on the subject of dealing with bears in Alaska on the treatise of your taxidermy observations in Delaware. Long live Gary Nixon I tend to use more than enough gun | |||
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George Im impressed with your credentials just a few questions when a bear charges is he always coming strait at you, I mean like something in disneyland on a track? Is your scope on 1 or 2 power or did you for get to turn it down or is 4x o.k. on a charge from 20 feet? have you read the story of Old Groaner? any truth to the rumor the ridge down the middle of a bears skull will deflect bullets? im sure ill have more questions later If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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While I instinctivily might choose a stout 45-70 load for stopping a charging Brown Bear I have stopped a half dozen large, wounded Brown Bears with my 30-06 using 200 gr Nosler Partitions. I have not used a 12 ga but the few folks who have that I have talked to were unanamous that they would never again use a shotgun. Gary Folger, who is in charge of the State Troopers in Fairbanks, had to shoot a Brown Bear in King Salmon and told me he witnessed the slug literaly bounce off the bear. Gary Paul, a guide with considerable experience, had to shoot a charging bear in the face with his 12 ga using OO buck and said that at a range of only a few feet it "peeled the hide off the bear's head but made him a lot madder and DID NOT KILL HIM"!! I have no doubt bears can be killed with virtualy anything but we owe it both to the bears and ourselves to kill them as quickly and humainly as possible. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Thanks Phil !!! .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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I'm not saying cast/solids would be my choice nor the 45-70 or I would be happy with them as a choice knowing I will be charged by anything,I am saying it is hard to argue with the success of a large heavy Meplated bullet up close where penetration is very important on a large critter.It's also hard to say a .458 hole along with the larger wound channel it creates with a large wound channel and velocity,is a bad choice. It's the guy behind the wheel that counts..Can this guy maintain sanity and remain cool calm and collected under the stress of a charge to place a jacketed bullet from a large shoulder snapping magnum caliber, in the right spot? It's hard to argue with success!!! 
Jayco | |||
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I guess that makes us even Anukpuk. I don't know what to say about your comment of it taking more energy for a pass through than it does for a bullet to expend all it's energy inside the bear. On dangerous African game, that's why they use a good partition bullet first and a solid copper for the followup. As far as the brain ridge, it's actually on the back of the skull. A big brown has a dished out face. By definition, a charge WILL be straight in on you, so don't mix predatory bears with pissed off bears. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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I can't believe this. Waterrat and 458win both have pretty extensive bear knowledge but still a dogged few with VERY LITTLE experience around bears are arragant enough to think they know better. THese guys have been there and done it. Everyone would do well to shut up and listen. I was already sold on a big rifle but if I hadn't been I think the experience on this forum would have had me swayed by now. Shotguns might sound good to you but experience has shown the rifle is the much better choice. | |||
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Look Bear, you can flush your toilet all life long but it doesn't make you a plumber. Because the liklihood of exposure is certainly greater if you live in close proximity doesn't mean someone knows the correct answer. Timothy Treadwell had one helluva lot more expeience than any of you I'd presume, but that still didn't keep him and his girlfriend from becoming bear shit. I don't trust wild animals, even ones caged and any amount of caution is just smart. I notice that you conveniently ignore other Alaskans who disagreed with the choice of firearms. What's with that? I admitted that the best choice was the firearm you felt most comfortable with, but when someone tries to tell me that a passthrough shot is better than one that mushrooms and transmits it's entired energy inside the animal, I wouldn't ever have to face a bear to know that statement is bullshit. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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That is one of the most retarded statements I've ever heard. Timothy Treadwell was not bear hunting. Everything you are told not to do concerning bear encounters he did. Hell, he even slept in the bear's backyard. And like those damn liberal PETA sob's in your neck of the woods, he probably would have rather been eaten by the bear rather than cause it any harm. As far as your unused energy theory, what we need is solid concrete evidence. Come on George, can you provide us with that? And finally, if you believe that a bullet cannot mushroom and pass completely through at the same time, why don't you call Barnes bullet company and tell them that.  Oh yeah, in resonse to your plumbing analogy, all I can say is that you can stuff critters your entire life and that doesn't make you an expert on bear encounters! | |||
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Timothy Treadwell spent a couple of months each summer for thirteen years "cavorting with bears" about forty miles from my homestead. I have spent twenty years there. He was an idiot who knew very little about bears and their behavior. Had he spent more time each year he would have learned that the big boars eat both younger bears as well as any female agressive enough stand and fight for them. It happens every year in virtually every cove and valley. the fact that he was able to get away with what he did for as long as he did shows just how tolerent bears can be. He also showed that they can turn predatory. I personally don't care what type of firearm anyone else chooses for protection from bears. A lot of different guns can and will work. I know from experience what works for me. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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TJ I had to look in my gun vault just to make sure you did'nt have my "Bush Bro Special".. AK | |||
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Molar, I was simply playing the same game. Treadwell had(has) a helluva lot of impact on the bunny hugging community and he claimed the "experience" factor. Af far as proving the "pass through", how would one ever prove a negative. From a purely mathematical approach, however, you are the one in trouble. We have two bullets. The both weight 150 grains and are traveling at 2000 fps producing 2000 foot pounds of energy at the point of impact. It becomes rather obvious whether you using ballistic gel or animal tissue, that the bullet that was retained inside the envelope expended every ounce of it's energy. The one that passed through, however, obviously did not as it exited the target with SOME energy left. Again, I'm not advocating the shotgun, especially if that's not the firearm one is most familiar with. HOWEVER, if you read the history of the shotgun, it is credited with actually winning the west more than handguns or rifles. That's so because at close range, multiple projectiles are hitting multiple "targets" ,each with the equivalent energy of a single projectile. Every police department in America has it's officers issued shotguns. There's a very good reason for that and it all centers around "blanking out your target" when under duress. It's all perspective. As I never felt any threat from poisonous snakes outside their strike capability, I'm sure those familiar with bear habits understand exactly what that distance is. Someone like me might feel a fear for my safety from a bear at 100 yards, while I know many of you have weathered fake charges that stopped at 10 yards. That's why I'd feel more comfortable with a licensed guide while in bear country. When the griz came towards our camp, it was all we could do to convince ourselves that we weren't in mortal danger even as the distance closed to 100 yards. A person such as you and the other AK's who live in this environment are quickly able to discern threat versus scared shitless. Now I'm supposing here again, that you guys look down your noses at the Alaskan's who DO depend on the shotgun for bear defense. And using where I live to base your opinion of my experience is a bit shortsighted. The Acheson's don't live in Africa, do they? And Teddy Roosevelt was a hoity toity wimp from New York, but I think his impact was significant. When you have to use my domicile to advance your point of view, I suspect you're already accepted that you don't have anyhting else to fight with. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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George ,,,,don,t argue just to argue.........It,s pretty disrespectful and just gives people a very negative view of you............You seem to be proud of your accomplishments in life .. As you list them for everyone to see... You should have a bit of selfrespect and read more ,type MUCH less.......Do you realize that running your gob in this way ...Would be like Me argueing with Saeed as to what will kill a Cape Buffalo.....  ...........The only option for me to gain from his or anyone elses experience and knowlege , Once he or anyone else is stirred up ,,,,Is to politely ask useful questions .....Then ......pay attention to their answer...  ...You arn,t setting a very good example for any , younger AR members....... ..................................................................................Most everyone has something helpful to add much of the time and shouldn,t be ignored......But you are getting close to the ignore list..You would be my first...........Please George just shut up and mellow out...You relly will learn somethings ...gumboot out!!.If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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Thank you Gumboot. I think I'll take that part of your advice and ignore you. This all began when the question was asked and answered but then the AK residents seem self absorbed that their home location made them expert. I only asked why MY home was used as proof of your position, but when another AK resident had my same opinion, it was virtually ignored. You seem unable to understand that people other than Alaska residents hunt Alaska or Siberia folr that matter. And I AM mellow, but I recognize when someone tries to baffle me with BS. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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George, that comment is not fair when talking about Alaskans. I am not an arm chair hunter that can make reports on information gathered by data from wherever. I can attest to one thing about the knowledge of Treadwill- he was an idiot and was not like us true "Alaskans"-sorry. As for weapons of choice for either defense or hunting I would take one that would do both and surely my choice is my 1895G. I have shot enough Interior grizzlies to know what works. You have quite abit of information and have posted well, just not true about alaskans...meaning us hunters and woodsmen, the real backbone of Alaska. take care | |||
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Griz, you are correct and I apologize to be drawn into saying something that may have implied I have anything but the utmost respect for you guys who live where I can only envy you. And trust me, every outdoorsman and woman worth any of their salt knows that the only bad thing about Treadwell was that he got any publicity for being a shining example of natural selection. I've had the pleasure of meeting many of you in person and I assure you, I live in a world filled with fools, you live in a world of survivors. Sorry to infer any differently. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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I think both george and timothy treadwell are cut from the same cloth ...........know it alls who like to spout off....At least Mr Tredwell had pictures of him with bears.........From what I have read george has never knowingly been close to one on his own.. And He wants to argue with people with a quarter century experience ...........  .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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Gumboot, for someone who doesn't have anything intelligent to say, you sure do talk a lot. I thought you promised you were going to put me on "ignore". You seem to be shining proof that "experience" doesn't necessarily come with "quarter centurys". Twenty five years ago, I was probably no smarter than you are, but that's too long ago for me to remember. I probably was. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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George hope you dont take offense at my humor , i may need a rug made someday. here's a point im trying to make,maybe several . s.e. Ak and s.c Ak, northern interior Ak.are hundreds if not over a thousand miles apart water rats area and mine have no similarity so when somebody says ive been to alaska its kind of like saying ive been to the united states.but since i have lived from Hyder to Ambler you can take waterrats advise as gospel this guy knows his stuff. In s.e. Alaska it is all huge islands some over 100 miles long 100- 250 inches rain per year dense jungle like forests steep terrain, no horses or 4 wheelers can go off a road here. the A-B-C islands do not have black bears or wolves, only brown bears deer and mt goats deer season is aug 1 tru jan 31. 6 deer limit since most people here hunt there is no shortage of bear encounters of some kind very few make the news . ive killed a few bears and been charged killed one at about 12 feet. you will never be charged on a basket ball court the only time he is coming strait at you is when it has jumped over , under around whatever maybe the last 5 feet will be strait at you but youbetter start shooting as soon as you figure he's not bluffing. people get senarios in their heads of whats going to happen and what there going to do. guaranteed you will be slippin sliding or doin somethin you hadnt planned when you hear the " woof " Elmer Kieth came to this country once ,never came back. If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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Anukpuk, I'd never argue any of that and I do defer to the experience of you guys. However, ballistics, penetration, and terminal energy are as universal in Alaska as they are in AFrica, or even Kansas. The ones who seem to want to fight by berating MY OPINION, are defending theirs without ever addressing the facts. When it comes to human survival, we use (1) improvise, (2) use what we have, or (3) use what we trust. This was "hypothetical" in my view, but some have just made it "personal". It's a shame they can't understand that compromise. Hypothetically, if I had to face a mad bear, I'd rather have one of you guys with me than a dozen of the Davy Crocketts I have here. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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gumboot458, sorry to say, I have been reading a lot of your post and reply's in different threads. You my friend are a raving ASS. You add very little to threads, you tell others they talk to much and belittle people and think you know everything there is to know about Alaska. Sure you may live there and probably do have knowledge, but I don't have to live in Alaska to know what I need to survive in harsh weather or what will kill a Grizzly. Just because of someone's State of residents is not Alaska, does not disqualify them from making a statement about what they think will kill a charging bear. I don't have to touch a fire to know it will burn me. It is not rocket science. So maybe you should take your own advice and shut up. You can add me to your ignore list also.  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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George i understand the theories of terminal balistics, penetration ect. and since nobody uses solids , what gets gumboot, waterrat, 458 ect. riled up is thru experience the shoot thru seems to work best. doesnt seem to me dumping energy is as important asmaking a hole and all the things that go along with having a hole clean thru. ive been thru the trooper combat pistol and shotgun courses their concern is liability a sg looks better in court and is usually cheaper to buy and train with than a rifle. they use sabot slugs but they will use a rifle on bears if given a choise unless a bear is laying down it seems like they never quit moving, so by the time you eliminate the fur and all the brain aint all that good a target. i assume you have a few skulls laying around foryour classes. then arrises the problem of a sow with 2 or 3 two yr old cubs , very common, they will weigh 200 or so, when the sow charges the cubs will sometimes follow. enough for now. If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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** PROFOUND DIFFERENCES ** Big difference between Foster type Slugs and Brennekes . Big difference between 2 3/4 " 12 Ga. and 3" Big difference between the concept of a one-shot bear-stopping opportunity , -- and a multiple shot opportunity . The Ideal Bear-stopping weapon , -- is the one that maximizes your chances for survival , -- UNDER ALL REASONABLE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT YOU MIGHT ENCOUNTER . 95 % of attacks where contact does , in fact , happen , -- occur inside of 50 yds . But that doesn't mean that respectable percentages don't happen at 50 or more , and ditto with 20 or less . What weapon will handle the most likely circumstances with authority ; -- and still give you a leg up , pretty good , with the extremes ?? The semi-auto shotgun shines very close-up when the action is f-a-s-t . -- when you don't have time to shoulder the weapon , -- or grab a sight picture , -- nothing helps you hit like a 7 to 15 inch PATTERN ! --- You might get lucky and blind the critter , -- or leave it with a mess of pulp where his teeth used to be , -- or hurting so bad where its face used to be , it gives up the charge . If not , -- and the buckshot misses , -- with the right semi-auto , -- there's going to be 3 to 4 per second , right behind it , -- Brenneke 660 Gr. slugs . Many posting above , -- predicate their point on one set of circumstances , distances , or time-frames to stop the charge . Which weapon will give you the best chances under the WIDEST range of circumstances ? Many posting above are fixed on the stopping power of a single round . -- Few consider a perspective learned from several generations of modern warfare ; --- ( firepower and multiple hits type stopping power ) ! --- Most are fixated in the methods of hunting , -- not survival combat . JMHO , ------ MMCOUGAR . NRA Benefactor Member ---- 2nd Amend. -- They could have said , " The Right of Such a Militia " ; ----- But they didn't , they said " . . . . . The right of the PEOPLE " . | |||
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If your shooting at a charge over 50 yards, plan on getting at the minimum a ticket. I'd say over 20 the fishcops are gonna question you. Bluff charge is all to common.
You have got to be good to pull off that many shots during a shootable charge(and still hit what the hell your aiming at under stress, easy to punch holes in paper). Lets be honest and most folks arent that well trained. thats why we carry our rifles we trust. When I was in the military, I worked with a few specialized units doing quick kills and training associated to that. its a lot different punching holes in pop-ups or papre than having a bear come at you. You dont get time for mulitiple shots. If you are ready for the charge it means you know its coming and you could have removed yourself from the situation. When I was charge, he came from a ridge that was 68yards away (lazered), by the time I registered what was going on, grabbed my rifle, shouldered and chambered a round and put my scope on him he was about 25ft away. Luckily it was a bluff (actually a double, he came at us again). He was 1 step from being in my comfort zone and I was gonna pop him. If you have time to accurately get off 5-7 shots accurately, have fun in court, and get a good lawyer. You have to take the bluff charge into account also. A lesson in irony The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing this year the greatest amount of free Meals and Food Stamps ever, to 46 million people. Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us... "Please Do Not Feed the Animals." Their stated reason for the policy is because "The animals will grow dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves." Thus ends today's lesson in irony. | |||
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For many generations the bolt gun suited the needs and requirements of all situations whether it be combat or hunting. Lord help me if I am dumb enough to carry in the brush a autoloader and a shotgun at that. Knock me upside the head if I do. I will just stick to my leverguns or the bolts I have on hand- they will do just fine. | |||
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Redhawk you and George ,, your amazeing ......................................So let me see if I got this right ...You and your buddy came to Alaska for 10 days , you each shot a caribou and saw 1 grizzley .........And left ..................Did I miss any years of experience here.................................So why should your opinion have any bearing or be considered as valuble.........You don,t live here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!......How ever ,, when someone WITH years of experience , IN Alaska and WITH bears,, And I,m talking about lots of people who post on this forum....Makes a statement , It is worth thinking about...Like I said before We arn,t on the Deleware forum ...But you guys should be !! please , Start your own !!! Have a good day ......... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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Gumboot, let ME get this straight: you'e one of those IAMF's I referred to earlier. Idon't know how many times Redhawk has been there, but you just ASSumed wrong on many counts with me personally. You want to talk dangerous game, bring your sorry ass down to Delaware and I'll let you drive to the beach and see how long you last finding a parking spot on Rehoboth Ave. BTW, if you drop yor keys. make sure you kick them to a curb before you bend over to pick them up. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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I've lived in Alaska for 14 years now and i've found that sometimes it's harder to deal with a "real Alaskan" than a charging grizzly bear. I've been around many of them, you can't tell them shit because they already know everything. I've learned to tolerate them as best as I can but they will always be there. Maybe it's the seperation from the lower 48 that makes us "diferent" from most everyone else, I don't know. For all those outside of Alaska, don't think that all Alaskan's are like this because we are not, some of us do respect the rights of others and even if I may not agree with you, I still respect what you have to say. "We band of 45-70'ers" | |||
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Hey I'd take a 12ga or the 45-70. I voted 45-70. I think most of the Double Rifles are worth more than my life and the big bore doubles get kinda pricey too. The price means a lot to a lot of people and short range stopping power on the ol' govt and 12 ga are plenty to kill or deter a bear. Whatever I say doesn't matter though it's just what I'd pack. | |||
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M70Nut, When I was in Alaska, I met a lot of real nice and helpful people. You sound like one of the helpful ones. We have our share of assholes here in Delaware also. I guess the cold does not weed them all out. LOL  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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I'm not saying that some of these guys are like that, thats up to everyone else to decide. People claiming to be experts and know whats best for everyone else are the one's that drive me nutz. Every bear is different and they all have their own personality so every encounter is not the same nor the end result. All the bears I have encountered up here have been before, during, and after hunting season while I was carrying my rifle so I always felt safe knowing I had SOMETHING to proect myself or my family. The best advice I can give is carry whatever your the most familiar with, be it rifle, shotgun or pistol and be proficient with it. "We band of 45-70'ers" | |||
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** I DON'T GET NO RESPECT ** I too respect good information no matter where it comes from . --- On the other hand , my belief is that you can't beat actual Field-Results and experience . --- So it stands to reason , that those who spend lots of time in the field , in Alaska , -- in Bear environs , -- ( provided that they are the type that are interested in such things ) , -- are going to have some of the best information . My intention is not to dictate or presume to have the answers , -- in any sense . Mah opinions might be enthusiastic , but mah mind is alas , always open , -- ( I hope ) . I wouldn't dirty-mouth an African-type Double Stopping rifle , because generations of D.G. African Hunters can't be far wrong . -- Ditto with the heavy Mauser Bolt-guns . I give creedence to the opinions that you're better off with a weapon that you're highly familiar with , -- and use for hunting a lot . -- I recognize fully that shot-placement is a primo in this business , ( provided you have the time and nervous system to bring about that Placement . But I continue , from personal experience , and from the opinion of those more experienced than myself ; -- to believe that you REVERT , to instinct more and more , as the situation gets hairier . -- Finally , in a real life-threatening crunch , you go fully to instinctual action . I have no doubt that 458WIN's choice would be my own , if I had his skills , experience and temperment . But when I arrive at the Semi-auto Shotgun for our theoretical Best-Pure-Bear Attack Weapon , -- I'm talking a weapon that gives the average camper the best chance , -- And it's just my very humble opinion . A pure Bear-Attack number is a very specialized weapon , in my opinion ; -- and most of the problem , is in the very close-in and wicked rushed circumstances . There is nothing as instinctive in such doins' , as just feeding the muzzle toward the target and pulling the trigger very rapidly . -- I have great confidence in that . -- Nothing I know of , can walk through that . When it's that close-in and fast , -- you don't have to be a whiz shot , -- the target's getting so big , it's almost on top of you . It is here that the Auto-Shotgun especially shines . --------------- MMCOUGAR . NRA Benefactor Member ---- 2nd Amend. -- They could have said , " The Right of Such a Militia " ; ----- But they didn't , they said " . . . . . The right of the PEOPLE " . | |||
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If one had slugs that really penetrated well, and that is a big if, then a good man with a shotgun should have a good chance at stopping a serious bear charge. But a shotgun with slugs offers no more leeway for shot placement than a rifle and are less accurate - even if faster. As I said before, I would not feel totally unarmed with a shotgun, in fact I do carry one sometimes when guiding fishermen but because I can carry exploding "cracker shells" that are basically cherry bombs that shoot forty yards before exploding. I back them up with a load of # 6's and then Brenneke slugs but I have never had to use one. Shotgun are versatile weapons, of that there is no doubt, but they are not my first choice for a serious big bear stopper though. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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*** TACTICAL QUESTION FOR .458WIN - PHIL *** Phil , -- in your last post you mention a 12 Ga. #6 birdshot , -- followed by Brenneke's . I've read , recently , about Fish&Game officers and USFS Rangers / Biologists using #8 shot to bang an Ursus in the rump , -- to scare it away . -- The information was that No. 8's are mostly expended in the fur , and will not wound the bear , or cause an infected lesion , -- ?? Is your use of no. 6's , ( as above ) , to scare the bear away , -- or , at intermediate charge-ranges , to blind the bear , pending follow-up killing shots with the Brenneke's -- ? Both sound like tactics that , ( under certain circumstances , and at feasible ranges ) , might be effective , -- ?? Would appreciate your opinion of each , -- and yes , I know there is always a down-side of really irritating our theoretical animal , and CAUSING OR INTENSIFYING a charge . Best Regards , -- MMCOUGAR . NRA Benefactor Member ---- 2nd Amend. -- They could have said , " The Right of Such a Militia " ; ----- But they didn't , they said " . . . . . The right of the PEOPLE " . | |||
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