This should have been a poll from the start, should give some interesting statistics for those interested.

Question:
What weapon for bear defense.

Choices:
45/70 guide gun with heavy loads
12ga shotgun with slugs pump/auto
Full auto FN FAL
Double Rifle in heavy caliber
Heavy caliber bolt gun, 375-458

 

I started things off for the heavy loaded guide gun. Although a suitable large caliber,375-458, bolt would be a second choice.

tough choices. I went with the bigbore bolt gun.

I had a 458Lott that weighed in under 8lbs and wasnt that bad to shoot as long as I wasnt on the bench. Great rifle. Gonna build another.

For me the 45/70 was a close 2nd, with the double as 3rd.

While I prefer a double rifle for DG they are just too expensive for bear protection.

The 45/70 guide gun with proper loads, is plenty powerful, and is small, light and handy enough. Also they are reliable.

And affordable.

The only downside is that in the wet weather of AK you need to be sure and keep the tube magazine dried out so the spring does not rust.

I have used a Marlin 45/70 rifle for bear protection in Montana, this was before the Guide Gun was available. My brother has a Guide Gun and it is a slick, handy, very accurate gun.

It is the one I voted for.

Of the long guns I have now, I would use my Synthentic Blaser R 93 375 H&H Tracker [19 3/4" bbl].

That is the great thing about the Blaser R 93, you can hunt varmints with a 223 bbl, elephants with a 416 Rem Mag, and have a short handy 375 H&H bbl for bear protection, as well as other bbls for everything else in between.

All with the same stock, action, trigger, etc.

I voted for the double ,with a Red Mister # 2 guide gun # 3 .... The Red Mister , removes a bigger portion of body mass off the bear but the doubles ,medium or large bore caliber,, shortness,,and immediate 2nd shot win out..........................for me.....Course I don,t own one yet ,so the Red Misters work quite well ,,Thank you....the 416 is better at dumping them than the 375... But that is not to say the 375 doesn,t work well...The 416 Rem mag also isn,t affected very much by a 20 " barrel ...And I know of 18 " barreled Sako ,s thet chrono @ 2400 fps with factory Rem, Ammo.

12 guage pump shotgun, Brenkke DG loads.

My choice, made from complete inexperience is the shotgun with slugs. I have been using an 870 for 26 years in law enforcement and am pretty familiar with it. It may, or may not, be the best choice, but it is a weapon I know pretty well.

Respectfully,
Harry C.

I voted "Heavy caliber bolt gun, 375-458".

In particular, I would choose a .458 Winchester Magnum with 22" medium sporter barrel with 510 grain softs.

Slug gun...all that other fluff is just for show.



MG

where i hunt deer is shotgun county i've seen lightfields and brennkie shoot right through an 8 inch tree at 20 yards jmop

I carry a handgun myself. But did not see that option on the poll.

Looking at your other thread.

I only once thought that the possiblity of shooting a bear was high once while salmon fishing. We were camped along the river and there was brown bear making the rounds through camp our whole stay.

I still carried a pistol but slept with my 458.

That is how I voted.

12 Ga. - 3" - with a double-Ought in the chamber followed by at least 7 Brenneke 660 Gr. Slugs .

In Semi-auto , -- Gas Operated ; -- but only the most reliable actions !

---- MMCOUGAR .

I have to dance with the one that brung me and choose my 458. I would't however feel too undergunned with any of the choices but the shotgun would be my last choice.

The whole shotgun issue to me is plain desperation at best. I was skinning a brown bear in Katmai preserve a few years ago that had been shot twice with 00 and both were just under the skin and healed over. 1 shot was dead center in his chest about 8" diameter and the other in his back a liitle bigger but neither had done much muscle damage if any. When I was away sheep hunting a bear got into my wifes smokehouse and a couple of guides from a local lodge came and DLPed the bugger for her, while cutting the carcass up to get it out of the yard it was noted that shotgun slugs didn't contribute much to the killing compared to the 375 on the project.

I agree with waterrat. A shotgun should only be used as a last resort for bear defense. Proponents of using a 12 gauge with 00 buck cite that there is a better chance of hitting the bear on the first shot. While this may be true, it does not really matter if you hit the bear and the pellets do not penetrate. You are now in a far worse situation with one pissed off bear. On the other hand, you have people saying they would choose a 12 gauge slug. These people clearly do not understand the term sectional density and how it correlates to the amount of penetration. Sure, an average 12 gauge slug weighs 600 grains but you must also consider that it is being fired at a rather slow velocity. This combined with the fact that it has a low sectional density compared with say a 45 caliber 405 gr+ bullet, means that penetration will be mediocre at best. It is the general consensus among the so called bear "experts" that the only definitive way to stop a bear charge is to make a CNS shot(brain or spinal cord). That being said, I will stick to a large caliber rifle with heavy for caliber bullets that are proven to penetrate deep. One other thing. On another thread on this forum, there are people suggesting the use of a semi-auto shotgun for bear defense. I suppose these people are from the lower 48 and are not aware of the harsh conditions in Alaska. While no gun is absolutely failsafe, I am more willing to risk my life with a lever or bolt action than semi-auto. And finally, people are blowing this multiple firepower thing way out of proportion. Some people advocate an ar-10 with 30 round mags or semi auto shotgun because of its rapid firepower capability. This is absurd, as it is proven that a full-out bear charge takes place over a matter of seconds. You are at best only going to get off one shot before the bear is on top of you. That being said, I'll take my chances with a heavy caliber bolt gun that it at least .375 caliber.

Waterrat
When You were skinning the Katmai Bear did You find any Human Remains in Stomach.. Or hear of any Bear related deaths/maulling in the area that year.. The wounds on that bear were probably from a Fisherman/Women..Maybe an incident like what Your wife Had..In any case deterence through continous firepower is the shotguns main plus..Even the compacts {which most people carry in the Bush} have Mega deterence..Is the Shotgun a Bear Thump'in Weapon..No.. But it is Convenient{compacts} and it has a lot of continous deterence..
AK

AKrange

location Michigan

I have a full auto airsoft BB gun that can really put out some continuous fire but that doesn't make it a bear defense gun.

Waterrat

I've slept on their tracks and been face to face with them.. This years Silver Run was Great..
TheBear-78
Please stay in town..
AK

You can tell its winter time. Heres a news flash, there is no 1 perfect stopper for everybody. Everybody has different thoughts. For me a shotgun doesnt even come into the equation, others like them. A buck knife shoulda been on the poll. Worked for Gene Moe. Anyguy that stands toe to toe with a kodiak sow has my respect.

Hey bear_78, I hope you have a class 3 permit for that auto <grins>

Ak Range there is a movie out about this real bizzar blond headed guy who slept on a bear trail ...His last movie was audio only......{dont sleep on a bear trail } Use a rifle....Preferably a Red Mister...All this talk about shooting a chargeing bear in the brain ... I wonder how many people have managed that feat.........Its like Waterrat said a shotgun ,just doesn,t compare to a 375........And I have never seen a handier rifle than a Marlin Guide Gun... Mayby a Ruger Frontier but that is mostly made in girl calibers.... But I would rather have my wifes Compact 308 than any shotgun..!!....How many people have posted on here how a shotgun {just dumps em} I haven,t read one yet....How many comenting on how fast a large caliber rifle does ,, Lots .......................If your going duck hunting use a shotgun .. If you want bear protection that doesn,t leave a problem for someone else.. Use a large caliber rifle.....A 45/70 with a strong load fits that catagory....gumboot out......

SILVERS YUCK

try Pope and Vannoy Landing on google earth and find a town for me to stay in

PVY pop 4

I'm guessing my wife has killed more brown bears with her 300 Savage than you have altogether!

I can't believe the guys for the shotgun...Lack of penetration..Period!!!Doesn't matter if the charge was a charge..The point is, the .458 hardcast bullet from Garrett Cartidges penetrated stem to stern and stopped it....A shotgun will not do that....

My personal choice would be a big bore bolt gun but don't under estimate a 540 grain bullet out of a 45-70 on any game.

quote:

"This grizzly was killed in Spatsizi Plateau Wilderness Park in the Eagle Nest Mountain Range of Northern British Columbia. He squared over 8 feet and the skull measured 23 13/16'', which is very good size for an interior mountain grizzly bear. When I shot the bear, he had started a charge from about 70 yards away, and by the time I had a sight on him, he was 40 yards. The 540 Hammerhead hit him right between the front legs, and he did a complete front-wards flip after the bullet hit him. That bullet completely penetrated him lengthwise and exited. I made a follow up shot (which was unnecessary, just instinct) after he rolled which angled through the chest, took out a section of spine, and exited the top of his skull (if you look closely at the photo you can see the exit hole in his head). Very impressive bullet performance."

My opinion....Jayco

Jayco, your opinion is fine, but the thing you seem happy with is the same thing that would disturb me on a big bear. If that bullet penetrated through the bear and left for parts unknown, that means that all the energy of that bullet was not used in the bear. If I want penetration, I use a bow, but if I want stopping power, I don't expect to see the bullet get past the off side skin. You, like several others are addressing HUNTING bears versus protecting yourself in a dire emergency. On a charging bear, I want the bullet to impace someplace slightly below the eyebrow to slightly under the chin on a centerline.

I know a man from here in Dillingham that stopped a charging bear with a 12ga slug.

I also know a man from Dillingham that stopped a charging bear with a .44mag using factory ammo. I believe the story was well covered on AR this fall.

Now don't quote me on this, but I believe the Federal game warden in Kodiak used a mini 14 with full metal jacket ammo as his bear stopper. As I understand it, his thought is to load the charging bear up with lots of rapid fire deep penetrating bullets at point blank range to stop them.
I think the mini 14 isn't even CRF.

I voted for the 45-70 having recently purchased a Marlin XLR 45-70 but I started with a single shot 45-70 in the early 70's then switched to a benchrest 45-70 Rem Rolling Block with an Octagon barrel & a Unertyl scope.I'm comfortable with 06's that I started using in 1969 and 300 win mag for 20+ years,any of these should be capable of dropping any bear on this continent.I've never been a 100% trophy hunter the only bear tags I've purchased are for Ursus americanus and never had any interest in hunting Canada or Alaska I'll leave these hunts to the trophy hunters.

George, I understand what your saying about unused energy, but most of us that live or playalot in bear country dont go heeled like rambo for that maybe 1/2 of 1% chance of an encounter. we carry our hunting rifles. I know I'm sure as hell not gonna carry a shotgun, pistol and m14 plus my hunting rifle to go hunting (usually you got to hike to a good hunting area). We trust our rifles and pick them for our needs.

I've only been charged once (thank god I didnt have to shoot (alot of charges are bluffs)) and have had many encounters, but I dont stay up worrying about it. I carry what I'm comfortable with.

Quite honestly, I could care less what other people carry, its my ass I have to keep vertical. Anything will work to stop a charge, to me its all about luck. when its your time to get stomped, I dont care if your carrying a bazzoka (that shoulda been on the poll also with this crowd, might even throw an a flight of F-16's as air support also) or .22, your gonna get stomped. Use your head, pay attention to your surroundings and you will usually be fine.

Absolutely Joel, and I understand what you're saying. I was born and raised in cottonmouth and rattlesnake country. I don't ever remember "looking" for snakes, but I always saw them because I was aware of my surroundings. I was back there this past summer and my wife, who's native to Delaware with on a copperhead or two, was amazed when I told her not to stp over a log. She almost fainted when she saw the rattler tucked back under the log and wanted to know how I knew the snake was there. I told her I didn't, but I know were snakes like to lie. I'm sure on a much grander scale, that's how you natives survive with the big bears.

You can keep that snake stuff. you want to see me scream like a little school girl, put me infront of a snake. I can deal with anything but snakes.

Originally posted by George Roof

quote:

If that bullet penetrated through the bear and left for parts unknown, that means that all the energy of that bullet was not used in the bear.

Enough of this unused energy nonsense. I want a bullet to exit. I am of the two holes bleed better than one mentality. When a bullet exits, you can rest assured you have achieved adequate penetration.


If I want penetration, I use a bow,

Quite an effective charge stopper I hear


but if I want stopping power, I don't expect to see the bullet get past the off side skin.

So why not shoot a bear with a v-max. That is guaranteed to not exit.


You, like several others are addressing HUNTING bears versus protecting yourself in a dire emergency.

What part of Jayco's post did you not read. He clearly states that he shot the bear during an actual charge.


On a charging bear, I want the bullet to impace someplace slightly below the eyebrow to slightly under the chin on a centerline.

Sure, that would be ideal, but if you miss, you are screwed. I prefer a body shot.

Geez, where is gumboot when you need him!

I have killed a deer and a wild pig with a 12 ga slug, my wife killed a wild pig with a 12 ga slug. I was not impressed. Granted the slugs were not Brennekes....

I have killed a lot of game with a 44 Mag rifle and revolver, I would prefer that [with the proper penetrating bullets, of course], to ANY shotgun for self protection against bear.

Molar, that is such bullshit. I hear it every time I teach a hunter ed class or the hunters classes here. In a self defense situation, the last thing you want to worry about is a "blood trail". Bears are notorious for not leaving a blood trail anyway as the heavy fat on them works a lot like a self-healing fuel tank on a fighter airplane. You bust that shoulder joint down and mash up those lungs, when a blood trail becomes of use, you'll get plenty of it out through his nose and mouth. And IF you ever decide to go to Alaska, make sure you have someone with a backup. A body shot on a big bear will likely kill him but you'll have to have that engraved on your tombstone.

It's insane at best to figure on shooting an oncoming bear in the head and hitting his brain or whatever. I'd shoot for the center of the bear with a caliber that would hopefully blast a big woundchannel from 1 end to the other. Living with bears for 25 yrs and guiding for them gives a fellow a little more insight than a visitor. Most bushrats carry a rifle and usually a bigone if the need arrises but shotguns are for cityfolk and out of state fish guides on a big Alaskan adventure.

Riverrat
Ok, Silver suck.. Halibut is better at the Chair 5 in Girdwood..
AK

George,

You missed the point entirely. I am not recommending a heavily constructed bullet that will exit merely because it will establish a good "blood trail". It is desirable for its ability to penetrate deeply. The deeper a bullet penetrates, the more likely you are to reach a vital structure such as the spinal column. And all this talk about a bullet coming to rest against the offside skin so that all of the bullet's energy is expended in the animal and the "hydrostatic shock theory" and such is purely conceptual and unfounded. I have shot several game, some of which were complete pass throughs, some where the bullet entered and blew all to hell, and some where the bullet came to rest against the offside skin. Guess what, no noticeable difference in terminal performance. For bear, I will stick with heavy for caliber heavily constructed bullets that offer the greatest penetration. One last thing. Do you know how fast a bear moves? The chances of making a successful head shot under the circumstances of a full out charge are dismal at best. Rest assured there will be no time for a follow up shot. Why do you think African PH's suggest a body shot on a charging lion? I will take my chances on a body shot that will hopefully break the animal down. If not, at least it may slow it down enough to get off another shot. BYW, I have been to Alaska and it is much nicer than Delaware for the record!

Waterrat,
Could not have said it better myself!

Waterrat, you back on the short bus again. Have you faced a charging bear? Exactly where is its head? Center mass of a charging bear is all head. Contrary to the taxidermy work I'm asked to do, I've never seen a bear charging with it's mouth opened and his head tilted back I found it difficult to swallow Molar's story because of that. In order to shoot a charging bear in the throat area, you'd nearly have to be lying down . If you DON'T hit that bear in the head, you'll never get another shot whether you're using a .700 nitro or a BB gun. I'd be interested in hearing how you guys hunt ptarmigan. Do you carry your backup rifle with you? (Rhetorical question) Do you carry a couple slugs with you "just in case" or do you pick your spots carefully like our snake conversation?

It seems like common sense would tell you it takes more energy to shoot clean thru something than stopping half way. shooting thru you break more bone destroy more tissue, create more truama, blood loss. this is why people use heavyfor caliber bullets in little guns like 6.5 x55 and they do well, in non dangerous game Now when you use something like a 416 you can go light for caliber because of sheer brute force and ignorance. 300gr bullets in 416 dont run out of steam like 200 gr 30 cal. there is no comparison especially when a bear has his adrenalin going. 30 cals probably work fine most of the time when the bear is unaware, Try this little test next time you shoot a bear have a buddy snap a twig just before you shoot then measure how far you have to track him!
bring your radar gun see whos bear can run the fastest.
here's my opinion on gun selection;
416 rem , dont get long bbl or to heavy agun when you get over the awe of your cannon and your freinds quit looking at you like a jersey cow you will find it easy to shoot ( wear a past pad on the bench) in the woods you wont even notice it went off any more than any other gun. it is great on deer even better on bear
416 #1
marlin stainless guide 45 70 #2
I have one havnt shot any critters yet light loads penetrate trees well 405. heavy loads even better (cor bon fp pen 405 )recoil is probably more uncomfortable than my 416. also I know of a few people who gave up on guide guns because of weird problems youn must locktite all screws.
ruger 338 stainless is bullet proof wont rust and nobody will ask if its a shotgun(like they do when they see a 416)just need to replace factory 8 pound trigger. only drawback is 24 in bbl, if you like shorter guns.

As Molar suggested, my plans on if I was charged and had to shoot is to stop the charge. If the bear dies in that first shot, great. If not, it should (in theory) give me time for a 2nd more fatal shot. My first goal is to stop the charge, if I gotta track it down afterwards, I will.

Actually George a CNS shot is more fool proof, grant it the head is part of it but you also have the spine that does show. I look to break the bear down any way I can.

My wife has shown me quite a few bear skulls with grooves in them from where bullets have glanced off them. Unlucky shot for some folks? dont know. Thump it in the brain or the spine and your doing good, otherwise stop that charge anyway you can.