Is a 180 Accubond from a .300 Win enough for Brown Bear/Moose combo? I feel really comfortable with it for moose, opinions on the bear?

My reasons for wanting to take the .300 Win are many...(otherwise I would go with my .375)

It is synthetic with weathershield- it is light, very accurate, etc., etc. Thanks in advance..

Tim,

I would take the 375 but if you are choosing the 300 I'd look at the TSX. The Accubond might be fine but if you have a bad angle shot the TSX will get to the vitals.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Tim,

I would take the 375 but if you are choosing the 300 I'd look at the TSX. The Accubond might be fine but if you have a bad angle shot the TSX will get to the vitals.

Mark

+1

I'd take my .375, but if you're going with the .300wm use top shelf bullets like Barnes TSX. Accubond are not top shelf in my oppinion.

Brett

my old bear guiding friend always kept an extra 375 around, so if the client didn't bring one he give him his - enuf said

I would prefer a Nosler Partition, Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, Swift A Frame or a Barnes X for that hunt.

Thanks for the info guys...

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Is a 180 Accubond from a .300 Win enough for Brown Bear/Moose combo?

Yes!!

I used the .375 H&H with 260 Gr Accubond on Brown bear in AK- Shot a nearly 9 Footer. Worked well - heart shot and 2 follow ups in the spine - The heart shot only tuk him down for a couple of seconds and he whas fixen to move on, how far I did not know but no risk follow ups real quick. Tuff critters those bears.

Good luck,
Roland

You might consider 200 grain tsx if you do go with the .300wm.

Brett

Yes, take the 300, especially if you feel more comfortable with it, I know some friends who have dropped penninsula browns and two Kamchatka brown bears with a 7MM. You'll be fine.

I would say they should work fine - especially if the shot was over 50-60 yards.

OK guys, how about a 200 grain A-frame? Would that be a much better choice out of the .300?

I am sort of in a pinch on the gun. I have to take the .300 because the show I am filming it for is sponsored by the gun maker, and they don't make a .375. I have had great luck on A Frames on big animals, so maybe this would be a much better choice?

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Tim,

I would take the 375 but if you are choosing the 300 I'd look at the TSX. The Accubond might be fine but if you have a bad angle shot the TSX will get to the vitals.

Mark

+1

I'd take my .375, but if you're going with the .300wm use top shelf bullets like Barnes TSX. Accubond are not top shelf in my oppinion.

Brett

+2

Use a swift aframe, nosler partition, tsx, TBBC for both the moose and the bear. Yes, the 300 will get it done.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
OK guys, how about a 200 grain A-frame? Would that be a much better choice out of the .300?

Tim, IMO the best choice!

Second on the AFrame. Never let me or anybody I know down.

Regarding bullets here, what is the practical difference between the "A" Frame and the Nosler Partition of the same weight, delivered at the same velocity?

Thanks,

Don

I used 200 partitions in my 30-06 for years while guiding brown bear hunters and think the 200 Swift A-frames should work perfectly.

While not an ideal choice, it will work with 200 Gr. premium bullets like A Frame, TSX, Nosler Partition and the like. Shot placement.

Tim,

I helped Jerry huffaker/Huffaker Taxidermy that posts here take a 65" moose in '04 just before I moved to Wyoming. He used my 300 WM with 200 gr Nosler partitions at 2960 FPS. Two shots dead moose and one bullet exited.

Fred Sorenson whose is my preferrd moose operator in AK uses a 300 Ultra and loves the SAF.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
Regarding bullets here, what is the practical difference between the "A" Frame and the Nosler Partition of the same weight, delivered at the same velocity?

Thanks,

Don

.


The Swift usually retains more weight and a greater diameter ....... Partitions often loose their front end or a good part of it ..........
I,ve never had a Swift A frame let me down either ......I,ve used the 180 gr Swift A Frame in my wife,s 30-06 ,250 gr in the 338 Rum and 450 gr in the 458 Win Mag. ...... I really like the shape of the 180 gr .308 and the 250 gr .338 bullets .....Plenty pointy enough for a good ballistic coefficient ..........

My experience with Accubonds has been that they retain about 60% of their weight, just like the Partition. I actually had one completely shatter a few weeks ago on a hog. All it hit was a rib, and there were pieces of jacket and lead all over the place up against the hide on the off side. It was a 130 gr. 6.5mm; the largest fragment was probably about 25 grains. The lungs were mush, but if I was hunting something dangerous I'd want something that will exit and leave more of a blood trail.

If it were me, I'd go with a TSX, A-Frame or Northfork.

If you were going for thinner skin animals, I'd probably say "Ok" to the Accubond however, in your case it's heavier boned, thicker skinned animals. One of which, you don't want to take unnecessary chances with. I don't see the Accubond as the best bullet for this hunt.
My first choice for a bullet would be a 180 - 200 gr. NorthFork. Offhand, I don't know what's available from them however. Barring the NF, I'd opt for a Partition in those same weights. I've always found the NF's slightly more accurate than Partitions but not to the degree that it matters in the field. Your .300 Win. should work just fine for this trip.
Just my thoughts. Bear in Fairbanks

I ordered a bunch of 200 gr Swift A Frames today. Unless they just shoot terrible out of that particular gun, I think that is what I will take.

I killed 2 Cape Buff with 275 grain SAF's from a .375 with 2 shots. It was camp ammo after my bag didn't arrive in Zim for a few days. I have confidence in them, and I think the 200 grainers should be fine. I'll take my time and only take good shots. I am used to that after about 4 years behind a single shot - and no, I am taking a bolt action on this one...

I think you'll be happy Tim. You can't go wrong with the 200 grain A Frames or TSX. If the A Frames aren't printing (which I'm sure they will) you can try the TSX.

Brett

Tim Herald ----- Your SAF's will do fine. I took my 91/2 ft. Brown Bear with 200 grain Nosler Partitions loaded to 2950 fps from a .300 Winny. I was lucky enough to get a frontal shot with the Bear standing looking at me, he fell in his tracks like an oak tree. What happened next is the reason I carried a .340 Wby on my following trip to big Bear country and now carry a .358 STA, loaded with 270 grain North Forks. ----- At the shot three additional Bears stood and confronted my party of four and had to be delt with. We had crawled a half mile up a Salmon stream in the stalk and the other Bears were feeding in adjacent streams, unsighted to us. We were tagged for three Bears, but certainly didn't want them all at once. We took two 8 ft. Bears and a 7 footer left in a hurry. I felt like I was carrying a pea shooter with the Winny in my hands, it did a fine job, but on subsequent trips I pack larger artillery these days. If you have never faced large Bears up close and personal, while they are dieing, I dare say you will be equally impressed. I still hear those (roars, coughs, teeth snapping, men screaming-cussing and shooting) sounds in my head on occasion. One final point, hopefully, as you state you can take your time and get a perfect broadside shot, what if that Bear is charging you are someone close to you, in that case you will have to take what you have. This was my experience, while not typical, still something to think about. This occured near Cold Bay Alaska. Good luck and good shootig.

The .300 will work fine. I tend to agree with the majority here in that the accubond will have a bit of a light jacket.

Of my two .300's I have a Ruger #1 that is intended for accurate long range shooting on med size big game, ( deer,blackbear, caribou, etc) I shoot a 180 gr. ballistic tip in that rifle. In my bolt action .300 that is intended for much the same hunting with the exception that it will be done in bear country I shoot a 200 gr. speer flat base spitster.

The accubond would probably not cause a problem if you were really intent on useing it but I would really hold out for a clean broadside shot.

I have shot brown bears with a .300 but I do normally take a .338. I've also shot several with my .375's but they can be a bit heavy when packing around in normal Alaskan conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
In my bolt action .300 that is intended for much the same hunting with the exception that it will be done in bear country I shoot a 200 gr. speer flat base spitster.

The accubond would probably not cause a problem if you were really intent on useing it but I would really hold out for a clean broadside shot.

I have shot brown bears with a .300 but I do normally take a .338. I've also shot several with my .375's but they can be a bit heavy when packing around in normal Alaskan conditions.

.

Hence , the 375 Ruger Alaskan ..... 270 gr factory load sighted 2" high @ 100 yards it is about 7 " low @ 300 yards ... It will work great on a shoulder shot @ 10feet - 350 yards ...... And it isn,t too heavy or long and awkward to pack around ..weighs about the same as most 300 mags , even the shorties .and is alot more comforting when packing out a moose .....

Would all those that have resevations about using a 30 cal NAB have the same reservations about a NAB in a larger cal say .338 or .375?

Just curious cause I'm going on a similar hunt (Griz/caribou)

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Would all those that have resevations about using a 30 cal NAB have the same reservations about a NAB in a larger cal say .338 or .375?

Just curious cause I'm going on a similar hunt (Griz/caribou)

For me, I'd still prefer the NorthFork or secondly, the Partition. But that's me.
Bear in Fairbanks

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Would all those that have resevations about using a 30 cal NAB have the same reservations about a NAB in a larger cal say .338 or .375?

Just curious cause I'm going on a similar hunt (Griz/caribou)

A .338 or .375 would certainly be a step or two up from a .300 for sure. The extra bullet mass would help. However I choose to shoot premium bullets out of all my rifles intended for big game from .25-06 to .375. I don't see a point in shooting crappy bullets just because it's a smaller big game animal. Are people afraid premium bullets will perform too well??? I'd prefer to worry about hunting and my shooting than weather my bullets are going to hold up under all situations, shot angles, and shot distances. I use TSX for all of my handloads intended for big game. If I need solids I use Barnes banded solids. So in short I'm still not a fan even in .338 or .375. I'd much rather have TSX, A Frames, North Fork.

2 cents.

Brett

Wayfaring Stranger
You raise a good point and in fact I would say that since Nosler is now making the accumark in a 300 gr. .375 it would be a good choice for even the largest brown bear. Performance and killing power is a balancing act between the caliber of your rifle, the bullet you shoot out of it, and what game you are shooting. Therfore even though I would not use the accumark out of the .300 for big bears I would indeed consider it a premium bullet for big bear in a .375.
There has been a lot of talk here about Barns bullets especially the TSX. I personally have no use for them at all except from my .220 swift where they are the only bullet that will hold up to the high velocity at 3900 FPS. My view of the solid core barns is that they are only one step down from a solid but thats just M.H.O.

I've shot big game with TSX from my .25-06, .325, and .375. They are extremely affective across a wide range of calibres and game animals. The have near 100% weight retention and mushroom out perfectly. The idea that they don't expand on smaller animals because they are too solid like is balonie! In smaller calibres with higher velocity they create very large wound chanels. With larger calibres at lower speeds they mushroom perfectly.

Brett

PS. I don't understand how the same bullet at one calibre can be substandard and at another premium??? Either it's constructed well and designed well or it isn't. Either it retains its weight and doesn't shed its jacket or it doesn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

PS. I don't understand how the same bullet at one calibre can be substandard and at another premium??? Either it's constructed well and designed well or it isn't. Either it retains its weight and doesn't shed its jacket or it doesn't.

Its not that it is or isn't premium (I consider the NAB premium) its that a larger bullet can make up for a thinner jacket. Some belive that a large (for the size of the game) soft point bullet would perform just as well as a relatively small premium bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
Regarding bullets here, what is the practical difference between the "A" Frame and the Nosler Partition of the same weight, delivered at the same velocity?

Thanks,

Don

.


The Swift usually retains more weight and a greater diameter ....... Partitions often loose their front end or a good part of it ..........
I,ve never had a Swift A frame let me down either ......I,ve used the 180 gr Swift A Frame in my wife,s 30-06 ,250 gr in the 338 Rum and 450 gr in the 458 Win Mag. ...... I really like the shape of the 180 gr .308 and the 250 gr .338 bullets .....Plenty pointy enough for a good ballistic coefficient ..........

Gumboot,

Thank you for the run down. I've never used "A" Frames, only Partitions for Deer here in Michigan.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

PS. I don't understand how the same bullet at one calibre can be substandard and at another premium??? Either it's constructed well and designed well or it isn't. Either it retains its weight and doesn't shed its jacket or it doesn't.

Its not that it is or isn't premium (I consider the NAB premium) its that a larger bullet can make up for a thinner jacket. Some belive that a large (for the size of the game) soft point bullet would perform just as well as a relatively small premium bullet.

I understand what you are saying, but it is still substandard relative to better built bullets of the same calibre and weight and that was my point. You should pick a calibre/bullet combo because its affective and not because it finaly makes the bullet affective. As I said before are people worried that premium bullets will work too well???

Brett

Brett

Brett
I'm not quite sure why you consider the TSX a premium bullet and some others substandard. I'm glad they work for you.

Because TSX, A Frames, North Forks, and others are better built and perform as intended under a wider range of conditions. I think 100% or near weight retention on recovered bullets and large wound chanels on non recovered bullets is excellent performance (my experience with TSX). There are other bullets like the ones I listed that will perform similarly. Then there are those that don't have anywhere near the weight retention and high/more frequent jacket failure. Do you think all bullets are the same? I realize I'm nit picking and that most any bullet will perform for its intended purpose most of the time. I just choose to use better constructed bullets when hunting big game.

Brett

I would'nt say you are nit picking at all. If it is anyone here it is me. You seem to base all of a bullets value in weight retention wich is where the Barns bulets shine.
I on the other hand like to see a little expantion and demand top accuracy from my bullets. This is where the solid core bullets have faild me.
Like I said earlier there is at least one exception for me and that is with my swift. I also want to try them in my .458.
I belive that complete penatration with minamal expantion loses a lot of the kinetic energy that the bullet should deliver. I also belive that under penatration that is due to a lightly jacketed bullet from a High powered rifle is almost non exsistant.
On a big brown bear much of this is moot anyway because you typicly dont get complete penetration.

The TSX shine as penetrators not because they don't expand, but because they retain their mass which equates to higher sustained momentum values (which = penetration). They expand beautifully on small and very large game at low and very high velocities. They create very affective wound chanels. They do not however fragment, so you don't generally have the seeming explosion affect (unless it sprays bone fragments).

Another thing I like about them is their improbability of manufacturer defect. It would be pretty hard to screw one up and not have it be noticable. On a jacketed bullet the walls could be thinner than usual and you would have no idea. The X bullet wasn't a supper accurate bullet generally speaking. The TSX are more accurate than the X bullet. Some of my rifles shoot very good groups with TSX and others shoot good groups. My .25-06 shoots .5 inch groups. My .375 shoots 1.25 inch groups, but then again I'm using a 6 power at 100 yards. Quite frankly though I don't care that much about accuracy (within reason) because more often than not my accuracy load is not my hunting load. That same .25-06 has shot .27 inch groups with other bullets, but I hunt with the TSX because who cares? I'm going hunting rather than a bench rest competition. .27 or .50 inch it's dead either way.

For my money I'd rather have 2 holes to bleed from than a little extra energy liberated. Especially on animals like bears that are notorious for soaking up blood and not leaving much sign. In a perfect world the bullet would just have enough energy to punch through and drop on the ground on the other side. I won't hold my breath on that one.

They only real problems I see with the TSX are that 1. they can loose petals from time to time (which still gives them decent weight retention when compared to most bullets) 2. they have more copper fouling 3. they will not load quite as fast as other bullets (50-100fps less) 4. they are a long for mass bullet, so they can create more compressed loads when head space is minimal. I see no merit though in the acts like a solid and doesn't expand debate. I've shot a lot of animals with them and as stated they expand fine.

Brett

Like I said before I'm glad they work for you. I remember when the x bullets first came out. I was hunting pigs with a friend of mine in Florida. He was excited about the new X bullet. He had them loaded in his 6.5x55. I was hunting with my 8x57 double rifle with 196gr. R.W.S. sp. we both shot a hog that evening and mine dropped on the spot. His ran through a bunch of palmeto's and into thorn briers. We scratched and crawled through all that to retrive his hog. After all that he made the statement look what a great job the x bullet did. I had a few thoughts of my own at the time but I kept them to myself and we just went and picked up my boar from under my stand.
In the 15 or so years since that hunt I haven't had much interest in the x bullets. Still as a guide I find myself subjected to hunters showing up with them loaded for there rifle. Since most of this has been for bear hunting I really haven't had a lot of problems. most bears requier follow up shots weather with Barns bullets or with a lead core bullet. You don't get complete penatration and 100% of the energy will be released.
Having said that don't think that a more frgial lead core bullet won't be as effective on a big bear. In 30 years guiding brown bear hunts. I have never seen a bullet fail to penatrate into the vitals when hit from a reasonable angle. I have seen even fmj's fail to penatrate with poor shoot placement.
So as you've stated you see no merit in my assesment that the x and tsx bullets fail to expand based on your expiriance with them but as you can see my expieriances differ.

My first lesson with bullets of too heavy constrution was about 28 or so years ago. I had spent a couple of winters hunting deer down on Kodiak. Those bucks impressed the heck out of me with their tenacity. It seemed like I would put 2 or 3 bullets into everyone of them before they would drop. Then before I left one year to go on my annule deer hunt I got to thinking maybe the 200 gr. speers in my 30-06 were to heavy so I loaded up some 165's. Man the bucks dropped like fly's.
We can go around with this forever. I really don't care to. As an accomplished hunter we can make anything work. I just know what works for me. Heck want to know the truth I shot more big game animals on one hunt than many do in years of hunting while culling in Zim. I shot 53 head of big game from steenbuck to eland and mostly with .308 FMJ's