quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Then before I left one year to go on my annule deer hunt I got to thinking maybe the 200 gr. speers in my 30-06 were to heavy so I loaded up some 165's. Man the bucks dropped like fly's.

AK,
Good posting!
Just curious, what make/type 165's were you shooting?

Thanks,

Don

AKshooter,

Good post. Have you noticed tsx not expanding on bears? Do they tend to exit or usually stop under the skin? I shot a cape buffalo with a 300 grain tsx several years ago and it mushroomed out perfect with vertual 100% weight retention and stopped unter the off shoulder skin. All other game I've taken I've had exits on. I was just wondering about your experience with brown bears. Thanks.

Brett

DMB
I don't remember for sure. Back then It would have been Hornady or Sierra B.T.S.P.'s. I prefered the Sierra and I know that I ended up using the Sierra as my load but I seem to recall that the first batch may have been Hornady's. As far as penatration and expantion I see little differance between the two. I like Sierra because they seem to be more consistant in accuracy. Some of my rifles shoot Hornady's really well and some don't. Almost all of my rifles will shoot a Sierra reasonably well.

Brett
The bears I've seen taken with ether the barns or similar have had much the same performance as you discribe with your buff. They worked quite well. A big brown bear is one perfect application for the x type bullet. If I were you and my .375 was dialed in for that bullet I'd stick with them. Even on smaller game like deer the .375 has enough energy that having a loss of expantion won't cost you the deer. I've shoot deer with my .375 loaded with 300 gr. sierra game king's and I did'nt get much expantion with them ethier but they still go down.
One time very late in the season about mid october another guide and myself were packing up to go home for the winter. we decided to hunt for ourselve's for a couple of days since the last of the hunters were gone. We both took a bear his was with 285 gr speers and performance was'nt that great. Not due to bullet construction I think there was a problem with the nut behind the buttplate. I shot my bear quartering towards me. Down with one shot.the bullet broke the front leg and we found it under the skin a couple inches from his tail. As we pulled the bullet out after it traveled from stem to stern on that bear you could see that it had lost about 40% of its weight. My friend commented "what terrable bullet performance" That was a 300 gr. Sierra and I was'nt dissapointed.
I do want to experiment with some x type bullet in my .458 Heck I shoot 500gr. solids in it now.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
OK guys, how about a 200 grain A-frame? Would that be a much better choice out of the .300?

That would be my choice and in my view a quantum leap over the AB. jorge

Tim, I hope the A frames shoot well in your rifle. They will do a great job for you. Even the 180's hold together well. I just shot a grizzly in BC using the 180 A frames in a .300 Jarrett.

Call me or send me photos you get your bear, I know you have been wanting one for some time now. Enjoy! Wade

180gr Accubonds is what I use plus my buddies in our Sako m75ss 300WM - taken moose/elk/bears/deer at various distances here in Alberta. Maybe a 200gr AB might be a better choice for larger bears but I think know the 180's will do the job. TTSX's would be another choice.

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Akshooter:
Then before I left one year to go on my annule deer hunt I got to thinking maybe the 200 gr. speers in my 30-06 were to heavy so I loaded up some 165's. Man the bucks dropped like fly's.

AK,,
.



They may have collapsed fast , and sometimes that can be good , but the blood shocked meat sucks ... A 375 loaded with a tough bullet doesn,t expend alot in a deer but they still go down fairly quick ... One of the reasons I don,t like the Nosler Partitions , when the front blows off they ruin alot of meat ....... Swifts ,Trophy Bonded ,TSX ect work perfect on heavy game and don,t tear smaller game up much ....... Thats why I have stuck with Barnes once they came out with the X bullet ........No bullet failure ,either on heavy game or light big game .........

The Nosler Part.is a good bullet ,but I have seen it ruin alot of meat and an X bullet from the same caliber in the same spot ruin less than half as much ... animal didn,t go much further . and the heavy animals tend to drop just as fast ..............

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Tim,

I would take the 375 but if you are choosing the 300 I'd look at the TSX. The Accubond might be fine but if you have a bad angle shot the TSX will get to the vitals.

Mark

AMEN, TSX is the answer......

Thats a good point gumboot.
So far I havent had much problem with meat damage as long as broadside lung shots are made. I along with everyone else have seen really nasty ruined meat from a bad shot in the hind quarers etc. A light jacket on a bullet probably is guilty of damaging more meat from a bad shot but isn't that what a bullet is suppose to do.
The worst loss of meat I ever saw was when a friend shot a deer with a Barns X through the lungs and it ran off and we lost the whole darn thing. That did'nt really happen but I thought it sounded good.

On another note you've got me thinking about the .375 Ruger. One of my .338's is sure acting up accuracy wise. Might be a good excuse to buy a new rifle. For our hunting up here I of course like the .375 Alasken with it's stainless steal but that houge stock is really heavy compared to the .375 African. Maybe I could buy both and switch stocks then peddel the one with the houge stock.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:

Thats a good point gumboot.
So far I havent had much problem with meat damage as long as broadside lung shots are made. I along with everyone else have seen really nasty ruined meat from a bad shot in the

hind quarers etc. A light jacket on a bullet probably is guilty of damaging more meat from a bad shot but isn't that what a bullet is suppose to do.
The worst loss of meat I ever saw was when a friend shot a deer with a Barns X through the lungs and it ran off and we lost the whole darn thing. That did'nt really happen but I thought it sounded good.
..--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On another note


you've got me thinking about the .375 Ruger. One of my .338's is sure acting up accuracy wise. Might be a good excuse to buy



a new rifle. For our hunting up here I of course like the .375 Alasken with it's stainless steal but that houge stock is really heavy compared to the .375 African. Maybe I could buy both and switch stocks then peddel the one with the houge stock.

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.
I was rereading 458Win's 375 Ruger article in Rifle mag.this morning ., again , for ,I don,t know , the 4th time . I think he had the right idea with ordering a standard Ruger M77mkII synthetic stock.. I know it looks alot better than the Houge Overmold stock does .... I like the Ovm stock for its target shape . The 25/06 Ruger M77mkIIs had the same barrel dia as the 300 win and 338 win barrels which is close to if not the same as the 375 Ruger .... A 25 Gibbs would be a dandy fine wolf & Bou zapper ...And the Houge stock would be perfect for that job .... Phil said the weight of the Alaskan went down to 7#4 oz. with the standard synth. stock .....I sure do like my 375 Ruger blackened Alaskan .. I don,t know that black is all that great a color but it is another layer to keep the salt off ......It may end up turning green or stick brown /grey , like a dead willow ...... I

I had to lock tight the rear sight screws on . I wish it had a barrel band sling eye .. But I,m getting 2710-2725 fps with the factory 270 grain ammo ... And it is accurate enough to take a coyote @ 300 yards ....It took me a box of shells to get to be friends with it but I sure do like it ........ I,m looking foward to getting the 416 Ruger .. In Southeast it would get the most use from me , but up here the 375 prolly will ........I can,t wait to find out how fast the 416 Ruger will push the 300 gr TSX ........ YYEEEEEE HHHHAAAAAWWWWWW ... KAAA BBBOOOOOMMMMMM from about 20 feet on a big and nasty

Hi Tim,

The answer to your original question is YES. Not only are Accubonds "adequate" for large bears they are actual the best large bear bullet currently available. All this talk of 100% weight retention is meaningless. Accubonds will out-penetrate most other hunting bullets out there and yet lose 30% or so of their weight. This weight loss transfer to death and destruction. Loss of blood and shock. Penetration is very important on large bears but shock and the spraying of blood and innards is what kills. Lots of arm chair hunters like to believe what they read in the comic books but in the real world you have to destroy tissue to kill. Accubonds have this perfected.

Take care,

Griz

what grizz said

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzinator:
Hi Tim,

The answer to your original question is YES. Not only are Accubonds "adequate" for large bears they are actual the best large bear bullet currently available. All this talk of 100% weight retention is meaningless. Accubonds will out-penetrate most other hunting bullets out there and yet lose 30% or so of their weight. This weight loss transfer to death and destruction. Loss of blood and shock. Penetration is very important on large bears but shock and the spraying of blood and innards is what kills. Lots of arm chair hunters like to believe what they read in the comic books but in the real world you have to destroy tissue to kill. Accubonds have this perfected.

Take care,

Griz

From a 2300 Lbs Bison, Grizzly, large brown bear and all kind of other critters the Accubond has never failed me - I had better overall results than any other bullet, Like I mentioned before I shoot the .375 H&H with 260 Gr accubond. Works great.

Roland

There is a whole lot of difference between a 260 gr AccuBond and a 180 gr Accubond ....

Maybe the Grizzinator would like to elaborate ..

Elaborate I will. It makes no difference gumboot. If you are using a .30 caliber magnum to hunt brown bears you shoot a 180 Nosler Accubond. If you are using a .375 H&H you use a 260 Accubond. It's as simple as that. I have shot or seen shot many, many large male bears in Alaska with both of these bullets and I will put them against any other bullet in the aforementioned calibers and the Accubond will have the lowest wounded loss rate. Period. I'm not going to rip the bullets that flat do not perform on big bears but I will advise on the ones that work.

Take care,

Griz

. They may be ok bullets , but the bears that I know of that were shot with them didn,t fall over any faster of better than they would a Partition ,X or TSX or Swift ....And some required a shot or 2 more because they didn,t penetrate as deep as a Swift or Barnes would have ...
. For a picture perfact shot they are probably fine , but on a tough shot ,I don,t think so .

quote:

So as you've stated you see no merit in my assesment that the x and tsx bullets fail to expand based on your expiriance with them but as you can see my expieriances differ.

The fact that you are even considering the x and tsx bullets as virtually the same bullet demonstrates your lack of knowledge of them.I have used both,and they behave very differently.The tsx expands more rapidly than the original x bullet,and the TTSX and MRX expand even more rapidly than the TSX.As well,the accuracy and fouling issues that were common with the original x bullets,have been virtually eliminated with the grooved shank design.

origonally posted by stubblejumper

quote:

The fact that you are even considering the x and tsx bullets as virtually the same bullet demonstrates your lack of knowledge of them.

That would be my quote.

I really don't see in there where I say that the x and TSX are the same. Actully I think the tsx is a much better design. It's still not my favorite. I really don't recall any mention of ttsx and MRX at all.

Your right though I do not have as much knowledge of the x style bullets as I do the others I prefer. I do have experiance with them on everything from boar to deer to Brown bears.

Dose anyone hear have the expiriance with all the bullets made in all calibers on all kinds of game enough that they can compare what each bullet performs like as the hunter takes his game with it? I doubt it.

I'm glad you like you barns bullets. My expiriance with them started in 1980. Ironicly my first impression was that they were to light of a jacket. This was with some old 300 gr. barns soft points in .375 cal. This was long before the x style came out.
I shot a black bear with one of these bullets and it just shattered. Dumpped the bear but I had my concerns about useing them on anything bigger.

I'm sure this kind of performance was one reason Barns made the origonal X as heavily constructed as they did. In my opinion they whent way to far he other way.

As the tsx and subsiquint bullets by Barns have come out into production they seem to get better as they go.

The same can be said for the other bullet company's the accumark is much better than the origonal ballistic tip. ETC. ETC.

quote:

The same can be said for the other bullet company's the accumark is much better than the origonal ballistic tip.

Accumark?You sure do know your bullets.

Your right I stand corrected "Accubond"

stumblejumper

Please share some of your expireiance with us. I'm sure we would all like your perspective.

Tim, The design characteristic or profile for the Accubond was that it should work like a partition. You will not have a problem using the .300 and the extra margin of flat shooting the 300 gives can be handy in spacious environments like might Alaska.

I have used the 180gr TSX out of my 300ultramag to kill several elk and moose,and based on the results, my choice for large bear would be either the 180gr TSX or 180gr TTSX.Both out penetrate either the 180gr or 200gr accubond as well as the 180gr or 200gr partition.

The Accubonds real-world performance on bear flesh leaves very little to be desired. Gumboot, Just because you don't think they kill as well as a Swift or X-bullet doesn't make it so. I have seen a great many bears shot with a large number of bullets from a variety of calibers. The Accubonds penetration is better than the Swift the same as the partition and less than the X. The degree of destruction is better than the swift, the similar to the partition and a hell of a lot greater than the x. It's not conjecture on my part but actual observations in the field over a good many years. You can believe what you want but the facts are the same regardless. The Accubond is the most lethal bear bullet currently available for a variety of reasons. Some of which have not been eluded to yet. I would recommend that you use them before you deride them. Again, just because you read it in a comic book don't make it so. In the bear woods they flat get the job done.

Take care,

Griz

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzinator:
Hi Tim,

The answer to your original question is YES. Not only are Accubonds "adequate" for large bears they are actual the best large bear bullet currently available. All this talk of 100% weight retention is meaningless. Accubonds will out-penetrate most other hunting bullets out there and yet lose 30% or so of their weight. This weight loss transfer to death and destruction. Loss of blood and shock. Penetration is very important on large bears but shock and the spraying of blood and innards is what kills. Lots of arm chair hunters like to believe what they read in the comic books but in the real world you have to destroy tissue to kill. Accubonds have this perfected.

Take care,

Griz

Hey Griz...

This is EXACTLY how I feel too as far as weight-retention goes!!!

Again, it's only MY OPINION but that's the only one that counts!

As long as a bullet PENETRATES the vitals, I want a few shards of bullet and bone fragments to devastate tissue and innards!

I'm not one who is looking for 95%(+) weight-rentention from my bullet...I don't use a frangible bullet as a Nosler Ballistic Tip for big game, but the Nosler Partition is definitely my go to bullet...and when I run out I'll shoot the Accubonds too...Both great bullets IMHO...

If I was shooting a light for caliber bullet only then I would consider the TSX...Its a fine bullet as well and definitely has its place in my arsenal in regards to the overall hunt plan!

Just my .02 cents...

You're the first guy in the couple years I've been on AR Forum and another forum that has mentioned this...that I can recall...

Well said and I subscribe to your way of thinking, and of course all within reason...Matching the caliber, bullet weight and construction, and velocity to the game!

I don't desire 100% weight retention...is the bottom-line...

But I do realize everybody's different and that's good and they way it ought to be!

Different strokes for different folks!

They all kill with proper shot-placement and its no big deal...

Well late-bloomer I guess it all boils down to experience. In my experience I've learned which bullets have the effect of me running all over the woods chasing wounded bears and which ones leave them dead on the beaches. Even when I'm following wounded bears I want them dead right-now! that's why I like a bullet that goes pop and whacks 'em hard. A hot Accubond in my .375 takes the spark out of them faster than most anything. Certainly faster than one that pokes a neat little hole.

Take care,

Griz

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzinator:
Well late-bloomer I guess it all boils down to experience. In my experience I've learned which bullets have the effect of me running all over the woods chasing wounded bears and which ones leave them dead on the beaches. Even when I'm following wounded bears I want them dead right-now! that's why I like a bullet that goes pop and whacks 'em hard. A hot Accubond in my .375 takes the spark out of them faster than most anything. Certainly faster than one that pokes a neat little hole.

Take care,

Griz

Origonally posted by Late-Bloomer

quote:

You're the first guy in the couple years I've been on AR Forum and another forum that has mentioned this...that I can recall...

Hey over here thats what I was saying too.

Actully the heavy jacketed and the X type work fine on Big bears because they typicly don't pass through. I have noticed the shock value of a bullet that discharges some led and jacket and for that reason I don't use even the accubond in my #1 .300 win and rather use the old origonal balistic tip for it's even lighter jacket. My intent for this is good bullet peformance at long range on med game.

Those who promote the use of the x type bullets Cheer about there grate penitration ( wich they do) But it seems that they think that it's a common thing for a bullet to fail due to lack of penitration. That has not been my expiriance but then again I'm not a PH in Africa hunting elephant and buff.

The X style defanantly have there place I use them for at least one rifle. and there getting a whole lot better but it would not be my one rifle one bullet do it all choice unless I lived in California.

I will add and point out that if there are only a few of us here pontificating the use of a specific bullet ,then we are going against the conventional wisdom.

We are the minority and ether brillantly thinking outside the box or just plain wrong.

Just a little more food for thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzinator:
The Accubonds real-world performance on bear flesh leaves very little to be desired. Gumboot, Just because you don't think they kill as well as a Swift or X-bullet doesn't make it so. I have seen a great many bears shot with a large number of bullets from a variety of calibers. The Accubonds penetration is better than the Swift the same as the partition and less than the X. The degree of destruction is better than the swift, the similar to the partition and a hell of a lot greater than the x. It's not conjecture on my part but actual observations in the field over a good many years. You can believe what you want but the facts are the same regardless. The Accubond is the most lethal bear bullet currently available for a variety of reasons. Some of which have not been eluded to yet. I would recommend that you use them before you deride them. Again, just because you read it in a comic book don't make it so. In the bear woods they flat get the job done.

Take care,

Griz

. You got some pictures there capn . Or some even remote pruf you arn,t just some pimple faced internet hack .. Come on , a couple a pics .. someone with 6 posts and nearly revolutionary statements . " actual observations in the field over a good many years."...
. Pics ?????

. The fact is that every animal I have shot with an X or TSX bullet has died on the exact spot , or in the case of 1 heart shot Sitka Black tail buck , shot @ approx. 100 yards from me with a 338 Win 200 gr X loaded @ 2950 fps muzzle velocity . It ran less than 40 yards and piled up . Most all the animals I have shot with the X and TSX bullets have been 1 shot instant or very immediate kills ....One is in my avatar .300 gr .416 X bullet loaded for 2900 fps ,but chronographing @ 2825 fps avg.muzzle velocity ....... I may try the 260 gr .375 Accubond , but I may not as well .. But I defiantly will use the 270 gr TSX , with total satisfaction ,confidence and success ...
I have never recovered an X or TSX bullet from game , so I have no idea how much weight it retained .......But they sure do kill well and allow shots that very few other bullets will ...

Sorry guys but the picture went bye-bye. Ask and I'll email it tho!

There ya go Gumboot. A brown bear one of my clients killed less than a month ago with a .300 RUM 180 NOSLER ACCUBOND. bullet went right through the bear the bear fell dead. I speak the truth. Whether you wanna hear it or not it is still the truth.

I expect a pimple-faced internet-hack would have enough time on his hands to put up more than 6 posts, wouldn't you? Some of us are too busy killing bears to sit on the computer imagining what "this" bullet would do to "that" animal. How many posts do you have?

If I shot your favorite bullets and everything just dropped the way that scores of animals have for you then I'd never switch. Of course my own experience is at complete variance to that scenario. That's why I shoot bullets that cause massive hemorrhage and rapid blood loss and death.

Take care,

Grizz

. Well so where are you based out of .. . How far away was the first shot ?.
.
. I,m betting the northern half of southeast , tho it could be in P W S . but it looks more like southeast ...Spose it could even be Afognak What did it square ..Sept for it being a very thotful bear , nice hide ..

A good way to ruin a hunting hole is to tell people where it is. A better way is to talk about it on the internet. Best way is to put it on TV. Bear was 385 yards. Was only 1 shot fired. 27" head.

Nice big bear . Lets say , on the coast and not Kodiak . , Howaver out of a fast 30 ,if the distance was real close the Accubond may well have come apart . Good chance at the longer range the Accubond would leave a bigger hole than a TSX ect . but I don,t shoot bears very far away . For my purposes they are too soft but in your hunting they work well apparently .........

Gumboot how did I know you were going there.? I have seen many bears killed with that bullet in more than 1 caliber and weight at every range you can imagine. The 180 from even my .300 RUM DOES NOT fail on big bears at close range. You are living in a fantasy world. In the real world they kill very nicely. I'm starting to think maybe you were beaten with a sack of Accubonds as a child because this is not a rational or productive conversation any longer. They work better. Believe it or not. The choice is yours. Hopefully someone with a more open mind will be grasp the issue and use my experience to their advantage. I know I would. No sense in retreading the same ground. This information was provided free of charge by some who hunts bears quite a lot more than average and does not sell bullets for a living. I want the bears dead as efficiently as possible. No BS just dead. Accubonds are the best at doing just that for a whole host of reason, some of which we've talked about, some of which we haven't. Some people have very funny ideas about what makes a good bear bullet. I'm not sure where it comes from but I'm inclined to blame slick marketing. It sure doesn't come from shooting bears with them.

. I can imagine lots of different ranges , and I,ve seen lots of dead bears . . I kind a think I know who you are .. . I have a very different bear hunting philosophy than you do ...
.
. .. But hey if you sell lots of hunts you can have a real successful business ...........Turning dangerous game hunting into long range sniping .. .. At least you prove the 308 win will work on brown bear . As @ 400 yards that is about what your Rum has become ......

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
. I can imagine lots of different ranges , and I,ve seen lots of dead bears . . I kind a think I know who you are .. . I have a very different bear hunting philosophy than you do ...
.
. .. But hey if you sell lots of hunts you can have a real successful business ...........Turning dangerous game hunting into long range sniping .. .. At least you prove the 308 win will work on brown bear . As @ 400 yards that is about what your Rum has become ......

Gumboot,
I am quite some years on the forum – Have not as many post’s, but when the Accubond was launched everybody was critical about that bullet – If you look at my post’s you will see I was one of the first trying this bullet and post about it I shot a lot of critters with the 260 Grain Accubond and most where one shot kills – I posted many pictures of those kills, 40 plus years of hunting around the globe with different Cal & Bullets being objective the Accubond is under valuated, I can guarantee you they are amongst the best bullets around – Very accurate and like Grizzinator states The Accubond kills effectively. This is from my experience – not the stories from others. Gumboot one day you should try them, I'm sure you will be pleased.

Roland