As usual these types of discussions are better than the TV show "cops".

We are way past answering the original question and now everybody is just arguing, like somebodies mind is gonna get changed (yeah right).

Anyways back to the off topic....

Some interesting comments on bear hunting. I'm certainly no expert bear hunter, although I have been fortunate enough to poke 225 grain .338 Win Mag caliber X-bullets in 3 brownies and one grizz. All were dispatched without a guide and without any change of underwear required.

If you are hunting with a guide, talk with him and find out if your 300 RUM with the bullet of your choice is acceptable. If it is...problem solved. If it's not, you'll have to decide whether to get another gun or another guide.

Last October, I hunted browns on the AK Peninsula unguided as I am a resident. My buddy and I spotted a bear and as we moved in for a closer look, a guide with client and packer emerged ahead of us and went after the bear. We took a seat to watch the show. When the guide, client and packer disappeared over a ridge we heard 9 shots ring out. Assuming they just killed a monster bear, we pressed on annoyed that we didn't get to it first. Later that evening on our way back to camp we took a detour to check out the bear carcass. It was about a 7 1/2 footer maybe a little smaller but what really surprised me was the two bullet holes in the carcass. Apparently, the other seven shots we heard where either Middle Eastern style celebratory shots in the air or they were clean misses. After experiencing this, I have come to believe I would rather bear hunt with a guy who can shoot a rabbit in the head at 50 yards with his trusty old 30-06 than a guy whose first bear hunting trip is this one carrying a brand spanking new .475 Schuetzen-blastin-ultra-miser that has seen 15 minutes of range time. I suspect some hunters, maybe many, fit this profile. I try hard not to. Bigger isn't always better and IMHO, a hunter's ability to accurately shoot a sensible caliber for the game being hunted is just as important, maybe more so than the caliber. Just my two cents...

sep, Excellent post

Boy, Scott King, you sure got your panties in a knot!
I appreciate you taking the time to "quote" my post, so I could not delete it when I recovered from my drunken stupor.
I've never deleted one of my post here. Some of them weren't very popular, but what the hell. I don't care.
I don't come here to get in a bitch fight with a jerk. If I wanted to do that, I'd go upstairs and wake up my wonderful wife. I guarantee, I'd have a fight.
The point of my post was,
1. I don't think Shoemaker would recommend a client bring a 30-06 to Alaska to hunt bear and..
2. I just wondered if he still lives "Full time" in the bush, as his outfitter says.
Gotta go Scott, I'm running out of beer.

Gumboot likes to use big guns for his hunting. I guess this is just in case something bad happens. Like his marksmanship.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
How about that guy two seasons ago that got chewed up after hitting the bear twice with a 416 rem. Should we rule out the 416 too. That was down in your neck of the woods.

............. ,It was on Admarality Is. and he was using a 416 Rem mag .. which could lead one to believe the 416 isn,t big enough to dump the bear ,But usually it is .., The client shot that bear first , with as I remember a 300 Mag.... ....Course the bear was off like a dirty shirt once it was hit by the 30 ..I think the guide hit it 3 times with the 416 , . IMO he should have waited for a bit before he headed into the brush after it ......I,m not 100% positive but I,m pretty sure he was useing factory ammo ..........The bear died right after it mauled him ....But the fact is the client hit the bear first with a small , sorry , recommended rifle caliber .......The guide had to call the Coast Guard on his own cell phone because the client wouldn,t come to his assistance at all ........The next year he was using a 458 Lott ... ........ As had been stated there are situations where regardless of the size of the rifle , a bear might get thru ...............But that bear got a running start because the 1st shot was from a much smaller caliber , that was not perfectly placed ...Had the first shot been accurately placed with the 416 , the bear would have died right there ........I feel that had the client been useing a good bullet in the 338-375 class of cartridges it would have worked out much better than it did ..........

So if the client was using a 338-375 cal round it woulda worked out fine, but the guide was using a 416 and it failed????????

What the hell you talking about gumboot? let me guess it was the ammo? it no way could have been bad shot placement? yes even with the 416.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller..............................................................................................Phurley5 I very much appreciate you posting this because I have seen this kind or experience to be the NORM . with people ..................Apparantly Phil,s clients can only ,[not shoot] things with the word [Magnum ] attached to them ......................Apparently all the animals taken at his guide camps with the 06 ect were 1 shot kills .....[[[[YA RIGHT ]]] ...It would seem ,according to Ak Shooter , Ray , Phil ...That if you are a hunting client you must be too incompetent ,to be able to shoot a 338-375 ..or even larger ........But I really don,t understand why their cut off point is the, snot 6 ,,The 270 win with 150 gr bullets kills bears just as fast as the 30-06 does in my experience ...There isn,t much difference between the 150 gr .277 bullet and the 180 gr 30 cal bullet .........According to the Swedish government , the 6.5x55 kills moose as fast as the 06 does so why not use that as a sensible minimum .............. My neighbor has killed a couple brown bears with the 243 win ,,,, all 1 shot kills . that doesn,t make the 243 a good bear round ....................................................The fact is that the rifle cartridges 338 and above produceing 3500 ft lbs and above usually have a much more noticeable effect on a bear than the 30 calibers do .....................A pretty good rule is if the pic you see of a dead brown bear is in the thick brush , that is where the bear ran to after usually being hit by a 30 caliber ect rifle .....If the bear pic is out in the open , like the pic Mike Detorre posted of that Monster , it was STOPPED by a larger caliber than the 30 .................Either that or they were by and large very patient or lucky .................The reason many Alaska guides used the 06 was it was a military round that was available and many men were familiar with it from the wars .....It,s very interesting that most of them moved up to larger calibers when they could ,,and , needed to ....As in the case of Phil almost getting it from a bear when he was guideing with the 06 ,.,. I still have the article where he explains why , and how ,,,he built his 458 .................But apparantly only guides can shoot large caliber rifles well and everyone else can,t ..

Gumboot,

Now your just sticking your foot in your mouth. Er rather BOOT. Your post sounds about ignorant.[/QUOTE]...........What part is ignorant ???

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
So if the client was using a 338-375 cal round it woulda worked out fine, but the guide was using a 416 and it failed????????

What the hell you talking about gumboot? let me guess it was the ammo? it no way could have been bad shot placement? yes even with the 416.

..............................Of course it was bad shot placement [[[.,My post said "...But the bear got a running start because the 1st shot was from a much smaller caliber, that was not perfectly placed .......Had the first shot been accurately placed with the 416 , the bear would have died right there ".]]]]]] .First by the client with his deer rifle ,,, next by the guide ,didn,t make the perfect shot ,, however have you shot any running bears ,,,, not an easy target for accurate shooting .......................................Of course what ever you shoot , you should hit well with it , ,, but so many people DON,T ,,, regardless the caliber ,,,And alot of very well shot bears lived a long time and run a long way when shot with the270 ,280, 30/06 , 7 mag ., and the 300 mags ...................But they usually don,t run very far with similar shots from the 338-375 group ....................... Disagree with me if you want but at least read my post before replying and calling me ignorant ......... .........................................................................The Original thread ? was Guns and loads for bears.......The member who asked the Question had a rifle he wants to bring but he posted his question here for all the world to see .....He will be hunting in an area in the region where I live ........His question was answered but he seems to really want to bring his deer rifle on a world class trophy brown bear hunt in northern Southeast .........I recommended what I know to be good choices ,.,.,., But still he really wants permission to come and shoot a brown bear with his deer rifle ................Sorry I won,t say it will work well ,, because I know ,it very well may not .....,

Never once did I call you ignorant. I was trying, and I might have done it poorly, to say that alot of times caliber isnt an issue.

Yes, bigger the bore usually the better, I will agree, but middle bores do work.

Wasnt trying to piss in anybodies wheaties. it all boils down to the shooter and what he can shoot. if the first shooter didnt phuck it up on the first shot, there is no reason why the bear shouldnt have been immobilized, just like the guide with his follow up shot (although he had a tougher shot on a pissed off bear). then again hes supposed to be the pro.

..........I apologize Joel it was R Miller who called me ignorant ................

Ignorant in that Phil never said only guides can shoot with big bores. He simply said shoot what you can shoot well with. And a good 30 cal with the right bullet is a good choice.

In my limited Brown bear experience I saw one small bear drop to one shot from a 300 win mag and 200 partitions

and another that I helped shoot that was hit twice with the 200 partitions from 300 win mags and once with a 180 barnes XLC this was another small brownie that never had a chance.

Another that was a large brown that I loaded the same load for another 300 win mag with 200 partitions that was dead with one shot (coincidently hit in the same spot as the other one shot bear. Quartering head on hit in the neck at the base of where the neck and body meet.)

I have twice been in the alders within 30 feet of browns on Kodiak.

The first time two bears, one large and the other a monster. They were hiding in there as my partner and I were plowing our way through. My partner saw what he thought was a deer staring at him, turns out they were not deer eyes. What my buddy thought were deer eyes turns out to be my buddy looking up the bears nose!!! Next thing I hear "bear Miller!!" and the woods just go wild trees getting mowed down. I stepped to the side for a clear lane as I was behind my partner. It all happened in an instant but I still remember having the thought of working my bolt to eject the 165 sierra boat tail out of the chamber and putting a 200 partition in. (I carried my gun with one deer bullet in the chamber and 3 200 partitions in the magazine.)
What I did was take the safety off and get ready to shoot with what I had. I never once thought to myself I wish I had a bigger gun, as I had shot many rounds with the one I had brought and was very confident in it. Nice thing was the bears went the other way and it was a moot issue. Later that day I did get a deer with the sierra.

Next time I was in the alders with another buddy on another Kodiak trip and had just finished telling him the story of the first two bears saying how those alders looked just like the ones we were in. Right as I finished my story the bear let out a woof and ran off not 30 feet away. My buddy ran after it as he had a bear tag and I went right after him. Off course the bear was 200 yards away in a couple seconds and never gave a clear shot. We were both carrying 300 win mags with 200 partitions. I would not have elected to just chase after the bear but I was not to leave my buddy behind.

Another one of my buddy got a brown in Yakutat that he shot 5 times with a 338 win mag and his brother shot another one a couple of times with a 358 norma mag that he ended up killing a few feet away after a firing pin malfunction and wounding it the first shot.

When I did own a 458 win it was the one I had in the tent on fishing trips down at the river.

Gumboot458:I admire that you have kept your composure and I apologize for the foot in mouth remark.

...............What were the circumstances with your friends bear in Yakatat .....?????......Hopefully I,ve cleared up the misconception that I think medium and large bore rifles need not be used accurately .............Sorry I only have a few digital pictures as I got my first digital camera last winter , and only joined the computer generation in September of 2006 ...........................When I fell timber full time and also while thinning trees I never imagined there was such a thing as online forums .........I,ve had a few 15 foot or less encounters with bears , all while alone or with my dog .........Some of them I was only armed with a 40 S&W or snub nosed 357 .......One black bear would have had me execpt I knew I was going to bump into him and I had my little Ruger 41 mag. Blackhawk in my hand ......I out bluffed him and he took off , no shots fired ..........If you can always spine a bear then the 300 works as good as a 260 Rem would .......I know you said you wern,t thinking about anything but the shot you would take and that you wern,t apprehensive using the caliber you were ..........But I know of too many perfectly hit bears that went unfazed by the shot when shot by a 30 cal or smaller .....Many if not most would have eventually bled out ...........It,s not uncommon for a 375 to need 3 shots to keep a bear down and dead but most of the time it tips them over very well ,,,I mean how do you think it got it,s reputation ......................................If it worked for you , thats great and I,m glad ,,...I know a couple guys who have shot quite e few bears with the 300 ,., but it didn,t always work real reliably in the country where they deer hunted ...........

All I know is it was around 50 yards or so and the first shot was on an undisturbed bear. He said they were chest hits and the bear went nuts as soon as the shooting started. The bear just ran in small circles then went off into the brush and died. His hunting partner also fired 4 shots with his 338 but my buddy doubts that his partner hit the bear as the partner could not even reload his gun after the gun emptied.

None of the bears that were killed with 300's mentioned in the other posts had any bones hit.

The scariest thing from the brown bears that were killed from the 300's was the 30' Tapeworm we pulled from the second little brown (nasty).

................Problem with these forums is stuff gets over talked .....I just hope any one reading this thread will take away from it that if they are going to shoot a bear , or really any other animal ,, that they don,t just shoot at the animal ,, but rather , pick the exact spot to put their bullet , then they put the bullet thru there .......Hopefully they will use a big enough rifle so they can watch the bear hit the ground while they are in recoil reaching for the bolt to put the hold down shot in .................There was a sow running around at False Island.with this huge worm sticking out of her ,,,,Looked like she was crapping a white tarp that was 15 ft long ...., she had 2 cubs and looked healthy as a horse .......

quote:

Originally posted by Calgary Guy:
Hey all.
I have booked Dad and Myself into a hunt with Baranoff expeditions for Spring 2009.
Here is my first of many questions if you dont mind.
I am planning on takeing my 300 RUM with me.
I dont mind getting some custome shells done up, can you all recomend a fantastic bullet and wieght?
Right now I can buy off the shelf 200 Grain A Frame also 180 Grain Swift Sciroccos

I am also wondering if the 300RUM is on the light side. But I do shoot this gun rather well and I am more than comfortable with it.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks
Calgary Guy

Back to the original post. The 300 RUM will work. Do not take the Scirocco bullet. Take a stout bullet, i.e., Aframes, TSX, Northfork, Failsafe.

I have a 300 RUM. If and when I go for brown bear, it will not be going with me. You have over a year to get a bigger cal rifle and practice.

I plan on buying either a 338 RUM or 375 RUM for brown bear. I will put a muzzle brake on it b/c that is MY preference. I will problably take the biggest bullet I can. I'll likely practice for at least 6 mos prior to hunt to ensure I'm comfortable with many types of shots...fast offhand, or steady and prone.

I am very comfortable with my 300 RUM and 200 grain bullets and have been for 4 years, BUT, I'm not about to pay 12K for a brownie hunt and feel like I'm toting a "marginal but workable" caliber.

I'd rather punch the bear with all I can. JMO.

Good luck on your hunt, have fun, and post pics upon return!

Doc ----- You have the right idea good buddy, lots of practice with the larger chamberings will get even the most timid shooter ready for the hunt. The thing is you just don't know what kind of Bear you have in front of you. My brother-in-law and the guide encountered his Bear three days after it had been shot in the foot with a .222 by a native aleut from a boat. That Bear was a pissed off, hurting mountain of muscle that had dug a hole in the alder thicket and was waiting for the next thing down the beach to pounce on with all he had. A charging Bear at 43 yards does not off the best of shot angles, particularly when he just blew you hat off with a blood clurtling ROAR that made you shit your pants. The experts say the smaller chambering are enough if you put the bullet in the right place, try that at 43 yards with that sucker coming at 45 miles an hour. Just trying to draw the picture of what can happen and did to my best hunting buddy. You can see why I took him back with me as a backup gun. Just my .02's worth. Good shooting.

I'll spend a few days this spring looking for a brownie with my model 70 featherweight stainless rifle chambered in 350 rem. mag. A very nice handling rifle.

Calgary Guy -

The 200/2500 'rule' -

I have found the source.

It comes from Tony Russ's book: "Bear Hunting in Alaska", Chapt 10; Shooting Bears, page 187 onwards. Parts of the book/available on the web as a review.

The rule is a personal rule of Mr Russ. The 200grains, 2500 ftlbs at 200 yards is my interpretation of what he writes as I could not find the definition / elaboration of the rule in the review.

I base my interpretation upon Mr Russ's statement no 7mm mag, nor .30-06 meets this criterion, while most .300 mags do.

Interestingly, Craig Bonnington in "Perfect Shot- North American Edition" states the .35 Whelan with, presumably 250 grain bullets is suitable for interior grizzly, although the various .338s are better. He likes the .338 Win Mag. particularly.

The 250 grain 35 Whelan falls short of the 200/2500 rule. In fact, the 225 grain 35 Whelan is better, narrowly missing the 'magic' 2500 ftlbs figure. Base upon higher S.D., better B.C., I guess my 225 grain .338-06 may just limp over the threshold.

But based on the various recommendations out there, I think one of the .338+ magnums would be a better choice.

It is a pity the .340 Weatherby has such a fearsome flinch inducing kick. Recoil that shifts contact lenses and jars jaws is not conducive to accurate shooting.

Back in the old days before premium bullest were the rage they are now the best choices were:

458 win mag with 500 grain bullets
375 h-h with 300 grain bullets
338 win mag with 250 + bullets
30-06 with 200 or 220 bullets

The threshold so to speak is a sectional density of .280 which puts the 6.5mm with 140 grain bullets at the bottom. Some quick combinations would be next 270 with 150 gr bullet. A 7mm with a 160 gr bullet. A 30 cal with a 180 an 8mm with a 200 a 338 with a 225 and the 358 with a 250.

Other notes were that the 308 and 358 wins out performed the 300 mags and 358 mag for penetration because the mags would blow up there bullets. One of my favorite sayings was "too much velocity for the bullet being used".
I read this in an Alaska magazine about 22 years ago.

It only applies to cup and core bullets but I thought it was an interesting read.
--------------

Now with many of the premium bullets the faster the better can apply.

Here's a video with several kill shots on brown bears. Take note at the 2:13 minute mark, head shot, and again at 4:30ish minute mark bowkill. The bowkill bear dies in about 10 seconds and made it only a few yards.

several kill shots on bears. By the looks of it, head shots and bowkills are the way to go.

Great video.

The bear charge made the hair stand on the back of my neck.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
Great video.

The bear charge made the hair stand on the back of my neck.

Yea, the first time I saw it I thought, OH CRAP, they're bear lunch.

I think a head shot is the best bet. Unfortunately, the skull is how we measure trophies. I'd opt for my well being over an entry in a record book any day.

...........That big fat pig on the surf logs was a nice size bear .............I wonder if they shot the one that was coming in making a racket ..If anyone can honestly say they would be everybit as happy being the guy with the rifle and armed with a 30 instead of a 40 cal on up ...,,Well my hats off to ya , hope you have good medical insurance that covers lots of reconstructive surgery .......It,s the quiet ones that scare me .........

Calgary Guy,

Your first consideration should be what your guide recommends. He will be your "expert" for the duration of the hunt so what he recommends is what you should bring. Then, practice with it religiously until your hunt. A .458 bullet that misses is less effective than a .308 bullet that hits the vitals.

That said, I think your 300 RUM is enough gun, but definitely on the lower end of acceptable. My wife shot her bear last fall with a 300 WSM and a 200 grain Barnes TSX. When the time came, she dropped the bear with one shot through the heart at 100 yards. I was ready to back her up with my 375 Ruger, but the bear fell at the shot and never moved again. The bullet completely penetrated and I wasn't able to recover it.

Welcome to the forums K9 .,.,., Where do you live in Salcha .........I used to live on the O.V.T. down towards the Midway Lodge ...............Since sep and you and several other people here have hinted that the only thing that someone with a 458 can do is miss , I thot I would mention that tho I absolutely advocate the 375 like your Ruger , the H&H, The RUM ect ..and the 338 win mag on up . Alot of people , myself included have done alot of shooting and hunting with the 458 and 416 ect ,.,., The 458 is just a nice rifle,,,,I have some 458s and I,m pretty good with them out to 200 yards or so ,,,I,ve been hunting with the 458 win mag and other 41 cal rifles and above since 1985 .. ..With the 416 it,s not hard at all to shoot as well as most people can with an 06 ....It just takes some practice , and getting your rifle set up for yourself ...........I always like to get as close as I can to a bear before I shoot it ,, or whats even more exciting is having them come to me I,m pretty amazed that people will pay 15-20,000.oo $ to shoot a bear @ 200-300 yards .....I guess they do ,,,,and some people once they've paid definitely want to go home with a bear ........I like to call bears in with a fawn bleat or some other predator call .....them 30 calibers don,t work so good on an agitated bear .......Sure a heart shot from a 270 will kill a bear great , but once their adrenalin is up , a shot out heart isn,t going to always stop the animal soon enough ..But when hit in the chest by a 475 458 , 425 , 416 , that bear is going down .....At least at close range they will .......For anyone to say that a large caliber can,t be shot well I think says alot about the guide , and his ability with clients ..........Most guides I think prefer to keep 30 cal wielding clients out of bow range of bears .........,,at least thats what I know of bear guides in Southeast .. The 200/2500 rule has been posted on this thread????I have a 25 /4200,.366 rule myself ........When ever possible that is ....... and push come to shove I just prefer my 458 Win Mag with a 300 gr X bullet @ 2700 fps at the muzzle.......

..........This may not be something some people will want to read but watching that vid of Afognak Wilderness lodge ...It is easy to see the difference in the size of the head on those bears from the same size bear here in Southeast ,.,., ....At first I thot it was the camera ect , but they just have big heads ........they almost look deformed .

Gumboot458,

I honestly wasn't trying to imply that people shootin big bores will miss. It just seems every time this issue is rehashed on any forum we've got some folks that lean towards deer calibers and others that lean towards big bores. I'm a middle bore kinda guy myself. I also like to hunt everything with one rifle and load. So, for me the 338 Win Mag makes perfect sense. Are there better suited sheep calibers? You bet. Are there better suited bear calibers? Definitely. What I seem to be seeing more and more of in my circle of friends and acquaintances is a shift towards larger calibers by hunters who are unfamiliar with their weapons and their own marksmanship capabilities. That concerns me more than arguing over the virtues of one caliber over another. Know what I mean?

Ya SEP ,.,. ,,,What I get frustrated with is the people who post that a 338-375 is a great big gun .......They are ideal and hit harder than the 30,s and smaller .....Some people have apparantly had good success with them but alot of people have not ,.,..........The undeniable fact is that if they worked so well the people who used them would not have gone to habitually using larger calibers .......

Thanks for all the replys guys.
Not to step on any toes, but has everyone looked at the Ballistics of the 300 RUM?
It is not a 300 Win Mag.. Its a 300 RUM.

I am not here to say its the end all and be all of Brown Bear guns.. (Thats why I asked the question) But to call it a deer gun... Makes me wonder if some of you have looked at the ballistics of this thing.
At 100 yards you have 3459 foot pounds (200 gr) as compared to 3357 for a 375 (300 grain)

Perhaps I am missing something here? If so please explain.

Thanks
Calgary Guy

........Calgary ............Remember the monster bear that Mike Detorre posted pics of .....It was shot with a 300 Lazaroni a few times and was spinning ,bellerin and as dangerous as could be whan it was killed with a 458 win mag ... ...I,m not sure the load used , but say it was shooting a 200 gr bullet @ 3200 fps .....That comes out to around 4500 ft lbs of energy ............Say the guy with the 458 was shooting factory 510 grain winchester round nose soft point ammo which does in the 2000 fps range and produces about 4500 ft lbs of energy ....... So 3 shots with the Laz ,as opposed to 1 shot with the 458 ....................If you can kill any beast with a bow and arrow you can kill it with a 30 caliber rifle ....But if you don,t CNS it ..,.,It may be a bit before it dies and stops moveing .................If you want to long range snipe a bear use what ever you want but not in the ABC island area ....Go hunt up in the Interior with all these guides who advocate the caliber you want to use .......Are you sure you arn,t [Shoo that away ]under a different handle ?????? ............It,s like the old AMC Pacer add ," Wider IS Better" ............I don,t work in then guide industry ,, I did for a short time but learned that I couldn,t stand being stuck in a tent with stupid , over paid !@#%^&*&^%$#@! clients who will argue about stupid s--- like 30 calibers on brown bears and whine for permission or justification to use a deer rifle on brown bear ...........

Calgary Guy,

I don't necessarily view the .300 RUM as a deer gun. Then again I hunt Sitka blacktails with a .338 Win Mag! But I also don't view it any differently than the 300 Win Mag. I know it's faster and therefore capable of shooting flatter but the fact remains whether a .30 caliber pushes a 200 grain bullet 2800 fps or 3100 fps it's still gonna make a .30 caliber size hole all the way through the animal and exit. IMHO, what's most important is the kind of bullet you use and how well you can shoot. I don't believe energy kills anything. That's a topic for another post but FBI tests have shown what little impact the pressure wave has on fluid elastic tissue. People who have been shot and lived to tell the story will tell you it felt like being hit with a baseball. Baseballs don't kill many bears but your 300 RUM will! ;-)

Calgary Guy
First I'm with you but I do think you need to replace the first digit of those muzzel energy #'s with a 4.
I have pontificated here that you use your .300 RUM. I agree with the others here that you should use a rifle that has plenty of horsepower to do the job.
My expiriance has taught me that a .300 mag will do that and especially your RUM. I'm not saying that you can just get by with using it I'm saying you can consider it fully effective. If you were hunting with a 7mm mag or a 30-06 then I would say you would be just getting by.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
........Calgary ............Remember the monster bear that Mike Detorre posted pics of .....It was shot with a 300 Lazaroni a few times and was spinning ,bellerin and as dangerous as could be whan it was killed with a 458 win mag ... ...I,m not sure the load used , but say it was shooting a 200 gr bullet @ 3200 fps .....That comes out to around 4500 ft lbs of energy ............Say the guy with the 458 was shooting factory 510 grain winchester round nose soft point ammo which does in the 2000 fps range and produces about 4500 ft lbs of energy ....... So 3 shots with the Laz ,as opposed to 1 shot with the 458 ....................If you can kill any beast with a bow and arrow you can kill it with a 30 caliber rifle ....But if you don,t CNS it ..,.,It may be a bit before it dies and stops moveing .................If you want to long range snipe a bear use what ever you want but not in the ABC island area ....Go hunt up in the Interior with all these guides who advocate the caliber you want to use .......Are you sure you arn,t [Shoo that away ]under a different handle ?????? ............It,s like the old AMC Pacer add ," Wider IS Better" ............I don,t work in then guide industry ,, I did for a short time but learned that I couldn,t stand being stuck in a tent with stupid , over paid !@#%^&*&^%$#@! clients who will argue about stupid s--- like 30 calibers on brown bears and whine for permission or justification to use a deer rifle on brown bear ...........

Cripes.. Why so angry??
Anyhow.. I wasent whinning about wanting to use my 300RUM. I just dont want (But will) spend the $$ on a rifle I have no use for once I get back home. My "Deer" gun will do more than fine on any animal here in Alberta.
BTW what do recomend for Black Bear? Personaly I have shot the last few up here with a 280..
I see some guides up your way are recomending a 375 as a good Black Bear gun.

Calgary Guy

BTW.. I am not posting under another name..

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Calgary Guy
First I'm with you but I do think you need to replace the first digit of those muzzel energy #'s with a 4.
I have pontificated here that you use your .300 RUM. I agree with the others here that you should use a rifle that has plenty of horsepower to do the job.
My expiriance has taught me that a .300 mag will do that and especially your RUM. I'm not saying that you can just get by with using it I'm saying you can consider it fully effective. If you were hunting with a 7mm mag or a 30-06 then I would say you would be just getting by.

Ak. It looks like the 300RUM puts out just over 4000 (200Grain) from the barell.

I know you can get shells up to 220 or so. I will be trying to source these in the comming months. (I dont have a program that allows me to see what that 220 grain would hit like. if anyone does know I would be interested in the answer.)
I think after all my reading you and I are on the same page as far as this gun goes. Its not the worst choice but there is no such thing as a BB being too dead.

Thanks for your thoughts
Calgary Guy

I was shooting 200 grain bullets at 3200 220 at 3050 and 240 at 2850 in my 300 rums .

I dont worry about energy tables and the bears dont look at energy tables either.

I think the 300 rum is nearly on par with the 340 wby and that going to a 338 win would be a step down in power.

RMiller,

I'm curious as to why you would consider the 338 Win Mag as a "step down in power" when compared to the .300 RUM? It would seem we both agree energy figures do nothing more than sell ammunition...at least until we teach bears to read. Then they'll really be effective!

Since both rounds will most likely completely penetrate a bear, I would think a .33 caliber hole completely through a brownie would be preferable to a .30 caliber one? Maybe I'm just splittin hairs...probably cause I'm so fond of the 338 Win Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
I was shooting 200 grain bullets at 3200 220 at 3050 and 240 at 2850 in my 300 rums .

I dont worry about energy tables and the bears dont look at energy tables either.

I think the 300 rum is nearly on par with the 340 wby and that going to a 338 win would be a step down in power.

........Where did you find 240 gr bullets ????????,, 3200 is faster than the books I have list.......What bullet did you use in 200 gr weight ??????.........I picked up some 300 RUM ammo , I,m going to see if I can find someone here with a 300 RUM to chronograph and penetration test these loads ....The 200 gr Partitions that I pulled from 5 of the cases sure look whimpy compared to a 250 gr 9.3 X bullet or a 270 gr .375 TSX bullet , to say nothing of a 300 gr .416 or 458 bullet .........They smashed flat and squished all over the place when squeezed with a pair of rebar pliers .......Can,t hardly leave teeth marks on the Barnes bullets ...The Kodiak Bonded Core bullets don,t squish out either ...........The Nosler looks like it would make an ok deer or caribou/ wolf bullet At long range that is ...They would probably destroy the front half of a deer at less than 200 yards ....... And as far as being equal to the 340 Whby / 338 RUM .. I don,t just kindof doubt it , It is not ........And in every way I would prefer my 338 Win mags with from a 225 gr bullet on up to even the 300 Laz .at 15 feet on a bear ............But that doesn,t mean I would prefer it to a true bear round ,., But the 338 is a nice round ,., and probably alot easier to shoot than a 300 RUM ....Ive been within 15-20 feet of a several brown bears , and within less than 12 feet of 3 that I remember .........After I shot my first black bear with a 300 Win mag in 1982 , I knew there was something wrong with what everyone was saying about how great it was .....?////////// .....I,m editing my post for the last time as I want Water Rat to have the last word .....I wish I had half his knowledge and experience ...GUMBOOT OUT !!

Looking at this from a APH POV there's a ton of variables at best. Anything from the 270 up will kill a bear with perfect shot placement but trophy hunting is a whole different story. Idealy your bruin will be in the open and broadside at 50yds but that is rarely the case.
In my experience most shots go bad by a hunter trying to break down (shoulder shot) the bear and shooting too high or too far back. There's a big non-vital area there and thats where their hit when they bounce back up and vamoose.
If you drive a bullet through a bears heart-lung area it's absolutly over pretty quick.
That being said the perfect shot is rare and a person shouldn't try to make a marginal rig work just because he's there. A 300mag w/220s is OK but a 338 w/275 Swifts is better. A 35 or 375 with heavy bullets is about ideal but the real reason Ak guides carry stoppers is because a few of hunters get a twinge of buck fever and it's comforting to have a rifle you feal comfortable with if on your knee's in the alders a bear pops up at 10'.
Most shots in Alaska that go bad are from shooting too high!!

quote:

Originally posted by sep:
RMiller,

I'm curious as to why you would consider the 338 Win Mag as a "step down in power" when compared to the .300 RUM? It would seem we both agree energy figures do nothing more than sell ammunition...at least until we teach bears to read. Then they'll really be effective!

Since both rounds will most likely completely penetrate a bear, I would think a .33 caliber hole completely through a brownie would be preferable to a .30 caliber one? Maybe I'm just splittin hairs...probably cause I'm so fond of the 338 Win Mag.

It is because I also think that both rounds would go right through a bear that I do think you and I both would be spitting hairs about the 300 rum vs the 338 win . If both bullets expanded to double diameter it is only .060" difference. If you handed me one or the other to use for a brown bear I would simply smile and be happy.

GB458 The 200 grain bullets were speer and sierra bullets and the wonderful powder known as RETUMBO. The 240's I was shooting were 240 matchkings they preffered IMR 7828 . Woodliegh makes 240 grain soft points and hawk bullets makes 250's in 30 cal. Personally I would put a 200 Barnes TSX, 200 swift a frame, 220 or 200 partition in the 300 rum for bear hunting.

I would not be surprised to see lots of damage on a deer with a nosler at high speed. That is why I used 200 barnes TSX in a 300 win mag on my last deer trip I put the 200 partitions in for the bear cause I wasnt worried about bloodshot there. The barnes bullets do not bloodshot meat like lead nose bullets do. At least in my opinion.

I am sorry but you sound like Elmer Keith as he thought the 270 win was marginal for coyotes. Not that you or him do not have hunting knowledge. Just different points of view is all.