Shooting Brown Bear With 9mm

16 July 2018, 11:10

ldmay375

Yeah, I suppose Scovill is correct.
With the exceptions of those that use handguns in the outdoors, spend time in bear country and/or hope to, or those that have interest in a very possible life threatening situation being neutralized with a handgun, 9mm fans, hard-cast bullet fans, etc, etc..

quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
Question, Except for the initial report I gave Tim Sundles , and he passed on to the NRA, I have not written up a full report on either the testing I did that led me to believe that the 9mm was "enough" , nor a full report of the entire episode.
I have photos of both.

I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

I would like to write up the story for folks who want facts, rather than fanciful melodramatic speculations , that will reach the most people.

Suggestions ?

16 July 2018, 16:05

p dog shooter

quote:
Many years back there was an Indian woman who shot what turned out to be a record book bear around Slave lake Alberta with a 22rf.

Here's a good write up of the Bella Twin story lots of good information there.

https://gunwatch.blogspot.com/...take-1953-world.html

17 July 2018, 10:45

Cougarz

p dog,

Thanks, I couldn't remember where I'd read it.

That place is south of where I hunt for black bear from time to time. There are definitely some big bears in that region.

17 July 2018, 16:45

p dog shooter

On another forum some posters have been trying to convince me one needs a big caliber to kill bears.

I told them that if they would pay for the hunt I would kill one with a 22 but so far no one has put their money where their month is.

18 July 2018, 18:29

A.J. Hydell

quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
On another forum some posters have been trying to convince me one needs a big caliber to kill bears.

Noted Alaskan outdoor expert, Chuke, leads a YouTube discussion on 'bear protection in the boonies' with other resident experts:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDLcSaeLw8

Two of four choose something chambered in 10mm.

None choose a 9mm or .22lr.

Must be a reason ...

18 July 2018, 22:11

458Win

Just like the news, everyone can choose their experts and believe whatever they wish.

Those with no experiences of their own and who who believe everything they see on social media become extra special experts

19 July 2018, 00:07

Fourtyonesix

There are clearly no extra special experts in this thread....nope....none....just good solid practical lower 48 field experts with vast amounts of experience....in reading.

19 July 2018, 01:16

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
There are clearly no extra special experts in this thread....nope....none....just good solid practical lower 48 field experts with vast amounts of experience....in reading.

Those would be "alternative facts" Jake!

lol

19 July 2018, 01:29

jwp475

quote:
Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
On another forum some posters have been trying to convince me one needs a big caliber to kill bears.

Noted Alaskan outdoor expert, Chuke, leads a YouTube discussion on 'bear protection in the boonies' with other resident experts:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDLcSaeLw8

Two of four choose something chambered in 10mm.

None choose a 9mm or .22lr.

Must be a reason ...

Their choices mean exactly what?

19 July 2018, 03:15

A.J. Hydell

quote:
Originally posted by jwp475:
quote:
Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
On another forum some posters have been trying to convince me one needs a big caliber to kill bears.

Noted Alaskan outdoor expert, Chuke, leads a YouTube discussion on 'bear protection in the boonies' with other resident experts:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDLcSaeLw8

Two of four choose something chambered in 10mm.

None choose a 9mm or .22lr.

Must be a reason ...

Their choices mean exactly what?

What do they mean?

Dude, you even watch the video? Ya don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure this one out. Punch-drunk Larry Holmes could figure it out.

The Next Generation of Alaskan bear experts are arming up with a 10mm for protection against Brownies & Grizzs when heading out into the bush.

The other two young guys in that vid will be there soon enough. Just a matter of time before they tire of hauling around a 12ga or some form of boat-anchor revolver. Yep, Glock 20s be in their very near future.

19 July 2018, 04:09

Adventure907

Apparently the definition of expert has significantly changed.

I have previously, or currently own, most of the firearms being discussed in these bear protection conversations.

There is no one correct answer to this question...

19 July 2018, 04:34

Fourtyonesix

quote:
Originally posted by Adventure907:
Apparently the definition of expert has significantly changed.

I have previously, or currently own, most of the firearms being discussed in these bear protection conversations.

There is no one correct answer to this question...

Maybe no correct answer, but seems to be some wrong opinions?
I have a 9mm and a 10mm (or a 1 centimeter as my kids call it). Also have a couple minutes of bear experience. If I had a 9, I’d sure be trying it rather than tossing it out saying “oh crap, guys in AR said this would never work anyway!”

19 July 2018, 10:07

Cougarz

I have to laugh at this one. I never meant to imply a .22 LR was in any way adequate.

Lots of cattle have been turned into hamburger with a .22 (I've done it) but it sure wouldn't be my choice if that cow decided to fight back.

Instead I was implying that using what you had at the time and applying it well would go a long way to see you through a tough situation. Also I have to hand to Buffalo Bore for offering ammo in calibers like the 9mm as an alternate for folks that aren't comfortable handling the bigger stuff.

I'll leave the geographical comments to the "experts".

19 July 2018, 13:27

jwp475

quote:
Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
quote:
Originally posted by jwp475:
quote:
Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
On another forum some posters have been trying to convince me one needs a big caliber to kill bears.

Noted Alaskan outdoor expert, Chuke, leads a YouTube discussion on 'bear protection in the boonies' with other resident experts:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDLcSaeLw8

Two of four choose something chambered in 10mm.

None choose a 9mm or .22lr.

Must be a reason ...

Their choices mean exactly what?

What do they mean?

Dude, you even watch the video? Ya don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure this one out. Punch-drunk Larry Holmes could figure it out.

The Next Generation of Alaskan bear experts are arming up with a 10mm for protection against Brownies & Grizzs when heading out into the bush.

The other two young guys in that vid will be there soon enough. Just a matter of time before they tire of hauling around a 12ga or some form of boat-anchor revolver. Yep, Glock 20s be in their very near future.

You apparently don’t know since you didn’t answer the question.

19 July 2018, 13:28

jwp475

quote:
Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
quote:
Originally posted by Adventure907:
Apparently the definition of expert has significantly changed.

I have previously, or currently own, most of the firearms being discussed in these bear protection conversations.

There is no one correct answer to this question...

Maybe no correct answer, but seems to be some wrong opinions?
I have a 9mm and a 10mm (or a 1 centimeter as my kids call it). Also have a couple minutes of bear experience. If I had a 9, I’d sure be trying it rather than tossing it out saying “oh crap, guys in AR said this would never work anyway!”

Phil Shoemaker proved that the 9 mm will work.

19 July 2018, 13:54

458Win

So did Kodiak Master guide Andy Runyon many years ago with a wounded Kodiak brown bear and his Browning High power.

And long time Fairbanks NRA handgun instructor Joe Nava has preached the value of the 357 and hard cast Bullets for nearly 50 years.

19 July 2018, 15:37

p dog shooter

quote:
I have to laugh at this one. I never meant to imply a .22 LR was in any way adequate. Lots of cattle have been turned into hamburger with a .22 (I've done it) but it sure wouldn't be my choice if that cow decided to fight back.

Killing a bear and defending ones self against a bear can be one in the same or different.

A well place 22 bullet well kill a lot of large animals I also killed some fairly large critters with a 22lf into the brain.

My Dad and uncle were a couple of the last legal bear trappers in Wis. He said they had 12 New house bear traps that they used.

I have the one he didn't sell when they out lawed bear trapping.

They would kill the bears that they had trapped with a 22lr to the brain.

So killing a bear with a 22 is very possible.

Not my first choice for hunting them nor defending my self.

But again the best firearm to have in a defensive situation is the one you have with you.

Life can come at you fast. If one knew the time and place of a self defense shooting one would just avoid it.

Since we can't tell the future we take the action that seems reasonable at the time.

20 July 2018, 03:00

A.J. Hydell

quote:
There is no one correct answer to this question...

quote:
Maybe no correct answer, but seems to be some wrong opinions? I have a 9mm and a 10mm (or a 1 centimeter as my kids call it). Also have a couple minutes of bear experience. If I had a 9, I’d sure be trying it rather than tossing it out saying “oh crap, guys in AR said this would never work anyway!”

Then suddenly, one of Phil's 'nose groupies' unburdened himself with:

quote:
Phil Shoemaker proved that the 9 mm will work.

LOL

Huh? ... He did wut?

20 July 2018, 10:08

Cougarz

quote:
So killing a bear with a 22 is very possible.

Yeah well the local timber company hound hunter used to use one on treed black bears, right up to the time he got mauled. Now no more 22's for him. I read once someone shot an elephant with one but still it in no way makes it a good choice for elephant or any other half way big animal and really is a silly argument.

The original post was handgun guns and brown bears of which I've seen a few in the years I hunted and fished with friends in SE Alaska but have never hunted so I'll defer to those who have.

20 July 2018, 16:37

p dog shooter

quote:
Yeah well the local timber company hound hunter used to use one on treed black bears, right up to the time he got mauled. Now no more 22's for him

I seen a couple of "dead" bears tumble out of trees like a sack of flour. Hit the ground then bonce up and take off running.

When shot with larger calibers.

When one hunts enough and shoots or sees a lot of game shot. One sees some strange stuff happen.

For the good, bad or other wise.

That is why every one is still looking for the perfect bullet

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=728100262#728100262

Orders are still being taken.

20 July 2018, 20:09

jwp475

quote:
Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
quote:
There is no one correct answer to this question...

quote:
Maybe no correct answer, but seems to be some wrong opinions? I have a 9mm and a 10mm (or a 1 centimeter as my kids call it). Also have a couple minutes of bear experience. If I had a 9, I’d sure be trying it rather than tossing it out saying “oh crap, guys in AR said this would never work anyway!”

Then suddenly, one of Phil's 'nose groupies' unburdened himself with:

quote:
Phil Shoemaker proved that the 9 mm will work.

LOL

Huh? ... He did wut?

I see you’ve prooved yourself to be an idiot. It’s rather obvious that you’ve never shot a bear or any other large game with a handgun.

20 July 2018, 22:44

RCG

Guys, this AJ Hydell is a poser. If you have seen any of his comments on other threads, he is an instant expert on every topic and a legend in his own mind. A true basement dwelling internet commando.

By the way, AJ Hydell was an alias of Lee Harvey Oswald only he spelled it "AJ Hidell." I think that he uses it but can't even spell it correctly says something.

20 July 2018, 23:07

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by RCG:
Guys, this AJ Hydell is a poser. If you have seen any of his comments on other threads, he is an instant expert on every topic and a legend in his own mind. A true basement dwelling internet commando.

By the way, AJ Hydell was an alias of Lee Harvey Oswald only he spelled it "AJ Hidell." I think that he uses it but can't even spell it correctly says something.

I can picture him right now. He's just read the above, taken a big sip of Mountain Dew, and is frantically wiping the Cheetos dust off his hands and onto his Luke Skywalker Star Wars T-Shirt, getting ready to wish us "All The Best

" with one of his masturbatory "OK Corral time" signature moose turds of wisdom!

20 July 2018, 23:50

RCG

Exactly!

21 July 2018, 02:23

Ray Alaska

quote:
Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
quote:
There is no one correct answer to this question...

quote:
Maybe no correct answer, but seems to be some wrong opinions? I have a 9mm and a 10mm (or a 1 centimeter as my kids call it). Also have a couple minutes of bear experience. If I had a 9, I’d sure be trying it rather than tossing it out saying “oh crap, guys in AR said this would never work anyway!”

Then suddenly, one of Phil's 'nose groupies' unburdened himself with:

quote:
Phil Shoemaker proved that the 9 mm will work.

LOL

Huh? ... He did wut?

Mr. Hydell,

Without being disrespectful to you nor anybody else in this forum, the main point of the story about what happened in the .458 bear story is that he reacted the best way he could and prevented injury or death during the bear encounter. It does not matter what gun and ammo he used, but it's a fact that hard-cast and other solid bullets offer the greatest penetration regardless of caliber. It seems that you are from Texas, and several Alaskans have already disagreed with you about the subject discussed in this thread. For you to continue trying to prove your points just diminish any credibility you may have.

I personally would choose a bigger gun, such as a .44 Magnum or the .454 Casull, the latter which I carry when berry picking and things like that. But there is not denying that .458 has years and years of experience with bears of all kinds, so a sign of respect would be nice for you to acknowledge this and stop arguing.

The said, I would not feel under-gunned with 10mm pistol and a high capacity magazine loaded with this ammo:
https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-flat-nose-box-of-20

21 July 2018, 05:16

Frostbit

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by RCG:
Guys, this AJ Hydell is a poser. If you have seen any of his comments on other threads, he is an instant expert on every topic and a legend in his own mind. A true basement dwelling internet commando.

By the way, AJ Hydell was an alias of Lee Harvey Oswald only he spelled it "AJ Hidell." I think that he uses it but can't even spell it correctly says something.

I can picture him right now. He's just read the above, taken a big sip of Mountain Dew, and is frantically wiping the Cheetos dust off his hands and onto his Luke Skywalker Star Wars T-Shirt, getting ready to wish us "All The Best " with one of his masturbatory "OK Corral time" signature moose turds of wisdom!

Dude, you forgot Dude. Do Texans call each other Dude?

Cheers
Jim

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21 July 2018, 07:25

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by RCG:
Guys, this AJ Hydell is a poser. If you have seen any of his comments on other threads, he is an instant expert on every topic and a legend in his own mind. A true basement dwelling internet commando.

By the way, AJ Hydell was an alias of Lee Harvey Oswald only he spelled it "AJ Hidell." I think that he uses it but can't even spell it correctly says something.

I can picture him right now. He's just read the above, taken a big sip of Mountain Dew, and is frantically wiping the Cheetos dust off his hands and onto his Luke Skywalker Star Wars T-Shirt, getting ready to wish us "All The Best " with one of his masturbatory "OK Corral time" signature moose turds of wisdom!

Dude, you forgot Dude. Do Texans call each other Dude?

Cheers
Jim

Only cool people in California call themselves dude.

Mike

21 July 2018, 18:42

hikerbum

Great post Ry Alaska. Nicely said.

21 July 2018, 22:01

458Win

It is too bad that so many of these threads end up with someone, for whatever reason, and no obvious experience, casting insults and insinuations .

While I did have to kill a bear with my 9mm, and received an awful lot of flack from people who have never even seen a bear, it is not a caliber I recommended. It is not even recommended by the man who makes the ammo ! But he makes the ammo for people who think they might need a handgun for protection from bears and who do not want to purchase a separate handgun.

After nearly 40 years of guiding for brown bears and testing numerous calibers from the 30-06 up to the 505 Gibbs, my choice for killing charging bears is a 458 Winchester.

And I was chastised in print by Ross Seyfried, who has never faced a charging bear and hated the 458, for using too powerful a cartridge !

There seems to be a hell of a lot of self appointed bear killing experts out there !

So use whatever caliber you wish. It's your hide .

22 July 2018, 08:24

Fourtyonesix

Don’t worry phil. The sun will still rise where you live and breathe, bears still fish and feed, moose still rut, and internet experts will continue to know more than you, no matter what you kill a bear with!

22 July 2018, 09:03

LHeym500

Mr. Shoemaker please correct me if I am wrong:

If I remember correctly, Mr. Shoe Akers was guiding/escorting a couple to a salmon stream. I can’t remember if anyone was actually fishing. They were not out hunting. Mr. Shoemaker put the SW 9mm in the holster. He was not hunting and not expecting to run into bear.

I remember him telling us he had tested the B.B. hard case 9mm load and found it gave adequate, as in necessary, penetration to make it into the brain of an in bound bear. Mr. Shoemaker has shot and been around a lot of bear carcasses to carry out such experiments.

The important parts of this story are these: he carried a firearm he could shoot well, that had penetration to make it to the brain/spine, he shot to become familiar with the gun, and saved lives.

If am not a 9x19 fan. I own a 454 and like it. However, I would not be able to shoot it with a 1200 pound death with four wheel drive crunching on my arm.

Mr. Shoemaker does not need my congratulations. But he has it. He saved life that day. He is a legendary bear guide. If he was out hunting and having to anchor a bear on a raking shot that is what the 458 is for.

My goodness you use what you have, and you make do or you get chewed it is not that hard. Operator and God beat equipment every time.

22 July 2018, 10:37

458Win

quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
Mr. Shoemaker please correct me if I am wrong:

If I remember correctly, Mr. Shoe Akers was guiding/escorting a couple to a salmon stream. I can’t remember if anyone was actually fishing. They were not out hunting. Mr. Shoemaker put the SW 9mm in the holster. He was not hunting and not expecting to run into bear.

I remember him telling us he had tested the B.B. hard case 9mm load and found it gave adequate, as in necessary, penetration to make it into the brain of an in bound bear. Mr. Shoemaker has shot and been around a lot of bear carcasses to carry out such experiments.

The important parts of this story are these: he carried a firearm he could shoot well, that had penetration to make it to the brain/spine, he shot to become familiar with the gun, and saved lives.

If am not a 9x19 fan. I own a 454 and like it. However, I would not be able to shoot it with a 1200 pound death with four wheel drive crunching on my arm.

Mr. Shoemaker does not need my congratulations. But he has it. He saved life that day. He is a legendary bear guide. If he was out hunting and having to anchor a bear on a raking shot that is what the 458 is for.

My goodness you use what you have, and you make do or you get chewed it is not that hard. Operator and God beat equipment every time.

That basically is all correct. Except for the fact that the bear had circled around downwind and charged back through thick, heavy cover and was literally standing over my two prostrate clients when I was able to shoot him. And the worry of a pass through was formost in my mind.
I hear shooting clients can be a bad career move, which is something the 475 and 500 experts never consider

23 July 2018, 06:03

jwp475

quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
Mr. Shoemaker please correct me if I am wrong:

If I remember correctly, Mr. Shoe Akers was guiding/escorting a couple to a salmon stream. I can’t remember if anyone was actually fishing. They were not out hunting. Mr. Shoemaker put the SW 9mm in the holster. He was not hunting and not expecting to run into bear.

I remember him telling us he had tested the B.B. hard case 9mm load and found it gave adequate, as in necessary, penetration to make it into the brain of an in bound bear. Mr. Shoemaker has shot and been around a lot of bear carcasses to carry out such experiments.

The important parts of this story are these: he carried a firearm he could shoot well, that had penetration to make it to the brain/spine, he shot to become familiar with the gun, and saved lives.

If am not a 9x19 fan. I own a 454 and like it. However, I would not be able to shoot it with a 1200 pound death with four wheel drive crunching on my arm.

Mr. Shoemaker does not need my congratulations. But he has it. He saved life that day. He is a legendary bear guide. If he was out hunting and having to anchor a bear on a raking shot that is what the 458 is for.

My goodness you use what you have, and you make do or you get chewed it is not that hard. Operator and God beat equipment every time.

That basically is all correct. Except for the fact that the bear had circled around downwind and charged back through thick, heavy cover and was literally standing over my two prostrate clients when I was able to shoot him. And the worry of a pass through was formost in my mind.
I hear shooting clients can be a bad career move, which is something the 475 and 500 experts never consider

You tested your Ammo and choice of weapon and concluded correctly that it would work. You proved to be correct beyond a doubt. Bravo well done.

23 July 2018, 06:59

ismith

quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
So use whatever caliber you wish. It's your hide .

24 July 2018, 03:38

mfischer

I would prefer my Anaconda 44 magnum but congratulations mr Phil Shoemaker

29 July 2018, 03:47

A.J. Hydell

quote:
Originally posted by mfischer:
I would prefer my Anaconda 44 magnum but congratulations mr Phil Shoemaker

Dude, seriously?

'Anaconda .44 Mag' ... for what?

The biggest land mammal you folks got down in Argentina ain't any Brownie or Grizz. It's the Dogo Argentino. Those just ain't that hard to kill. Hell, Sherlock Holmes & Dr. Watson killed a super-large English Mastiff-hound hybrid with .38 Webley revolvers, if you believe the story.

Jeez, I've shot several 'runt-sized' Pit Bulls in the Panhandle that put up more of a fight than your average black bear or feral hog.

'Course, I was using a 10mm S&W pistol at the time, ...

03 August 2018, 11:55

LeonardC

Worth reading this thread just to see the CMR print. I grew up near his studio and went there many times. Thank you.

12 August 2018, 18:27

jwp475

quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Grinch:
I’m 70 years old and I say this to put a time frame on this.... when I was a teenager I remember reading a story in either Outdoor Life or Sports Afield about a hunter who defended himself against a black bear attack with a 9mm Browning pistol.

There was quite a few follow-up letters about this hunters choice of weapons. I’m sure there has been other occasions where “inadequate” firearms have been used to save a life.

Since it worked how can it be called inadequate?