Does anyone know which slug the Alaska Dept. of Fish and Game chooses for protection against bears and moose?

Get the info straight from the horses mouth, give ADF&G a call. Shotguns are great on birds and heavy caliber rifles wonderful for bear protection, no comparison in energy values. IMO riot shotguns w/lights sweet spot is home defense venue.

Good advioce to call direct and ask. I suspect that the state admin people don't want to spring for the higher priced premium loads so they end up with the regular old slugs that have been on the market for years. I was looking at slugs in one of the bigger stores just a couple of days ago. There are a lot to choose from. The copper hollow points look pretty deadly.

Energy (compared to rifles) doesn't tell the whole story. I'm aware of a couple of grizzlies that were shot and killed at close range with birdshot loads. A slug or 00 buckshot load at close range is super deadly. Did I mention close range?

I've deer hunted in Illinois quite a bit, slugs only, and I seriously doubt that they use standard foster slugs which at close range do not penetrate very much. The Brennekes penetrate very well at short range, but there are a lot of new slugs on the market that I haven't been able to try.

Checking the fairly low fps on off the shelf slugs and buckshot, I'm less confident that this is the right camp defense and back up weapon. When hunting small game, I keep slugs or buckshot behind my birdshot, but this is just to keep from carrying an ungaily hogleg. A shotgun feels good in the thick brush, but on open ground like the Aleutian Peninsula, I like to lob a round out there and kick up clods in a bear's face with my rifle, just as soon as it looks interested. If there is any chance to aim, I'd like to pick my spot. Just putting holes through a bear doesn't stop them. Most rifles will break a shoulder or select a vital. I can't see why anyone would deliberately set out to hunt a bear with only a shotgun. A fast, stout bullet well placed gets my vote.

FYI, I wouldn't consider intentionally hunting large bears with a shotgun. I'm thinking of something to keep in fishing camp on my next trip that would be more effective than a pistol.

A shotgun will stop a bear. The Forest Service uses Breneke slugs and I believe the ADF&G also uses them. There are all kinds of lively discussions concerning the effectiveness of shotguns using both slugs and buckshot. I know people that have killed brown bears with shotguns in defensive situations with slugs.
I can also tell you what Joe Zentner on Kodiak told me in a conversation in the 1970's. Two rounds of OO buck from a shotgun at a distance of 20 feet or less would stop any bear that walked the face of the earth. Old Joe killed more bears than anyone I know. He is long gone now but his experience told the story. He was killing bears for ADF&G in the 40's and 50's but I don't think they have changed that much in the intervening years. Jim

A 10 gauge pump with 0000 buckshot does make a nasty hole the size of a grapefruit up close. Ruin a rug though.

Yes I just checked into this as where I guide, bear guides are restricted to a shotgun for backup (don't ask..... gov't twits at its best). Alaska gov't fish and game and state troopers use the Brenneke slugs. The slugs are the Black Magic in 2 3/4 and 3 inch and the Heavy Field Short Magnum Green Lightening.

Hope this helps.

Just because something 'works' doesn't mean it's the best thing for the task at hand. A 22LR has taken elephant and cape buffalo...'it worked'. There are cheap soft points that have fragmented with little penetration on game and 'worked'... 'killed' the animal but not the best bullet for the task at hand. Will shotguns 'work' with Brenneke slugs, yes they will, but they are not the best thing for the task at hand on dispatching large bears at close range. The laws of ballistics are not influenced by opinion or personal experience, they don't lie.

Slugs can work very effectively.
My closest neighbor that is 2 miles down the mtn from us just recently used a 12ga on a Grizzly that was intent on getting into his cabin. He would not leave and was pushing on the door. He is 72yrs old and he had his wife open the door where he proceded to put 2 federal 1-1/4oz slugs into his neck. The bear was 8ft and was dead right there on the porch. Some may think a 12ga is not the best but you use what you have. He said he would not let a bear keep him pinned up in his own house. When we travel around we always have a 44 or 45 on us but the 4wheeler always has a 870 with 8 rounds of slugs in it on the rack.

http://i688.photobucket.com/al...000003B8E5E3E3F0.jpg

This is a typical sight around our home.

We were staying at a rented chalet just a couple miles out of Talkeetna last year ( Tree Top Chalet, which was very nice) and had a large black bear wandering around not over 6 feet from the front window, 10 feet from the front door. The owners said he had decimated the neighbors chickens the night before, and been up to other mischief in the area and everybody in the entire neighborhood wanted to get rid of him. I tried to get a shot at him but the door made a noise when I tried to open it and he rapidly departed. I didn't want to risk a shot with my handgun, but he would have been a dead bear if I had my shotgun loaded with good slugs. He wasn't aggressive, as most black bears aren't, but there are grizzlies in the area also.

These other brands of slugs sound good, but will they penetrate more than the Brenneke and also make a 70 caliber hole?

I don't know what the Alaska Fish and Game folks carry. But if were carrying a scattergun for 'bar' defense, I'd have it loaded with the Breneke "Black Magic" or the new "Magnum Crush".

Update: I see Skyline found out that the Alaska Fish and Game use the Brenneke Black Magic or Green Lightning. Good choices.

The new Magnum Crush is the current heavy weight champion.... but it's meant for rifled barrels.

quote:

Just because something 'works' doesn't mean it's the best thing for the task at hand. A 22LR has taken elephant and cape buffalo...'it worked'. There are cheap soft points that have fragmented with little penetration on game and 'worked'... 'killed' the animal but not the best bullet for the task at hand. Will shotguns 'work' with Brenneke slugs, yes they will, but they are not the best thing for the task at hand on dispatching large bears at close range. The laws of ballistics are not influenced by opinion or personal experience, they don't lie.

Then Dirk, what is the best weapon for the task? Perhaps you could let all of us know. Is it a .375 or .416 or .458 or .474 or .510 caliber rifle? Is it a 12 gauge or 10 gauge or 8 gauge slug or bigger? Is it something on the bigger side of .50 caliber or is it shot placement and penetration? Please enlighten us all with your knowledge. I love you guys that dis someone's ideas without giving an answer. Perhaps you should write a book like Will. Here,, I'll post a smiley face so you'll believe all is A-OK with this smart-ass comment just like Will does.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Brainard:
A shotgun will stop a bear. The Forest Service uses Breneke slugs and I believe the ADF&G also uses them.

I wouldn't always trust the ADF&G's actions as the gospel truth of what you should do and I wouldn't even listen to what the feds had to say about it. I have been involved with and heard too many stories of guides having to straighten out a mess they have made.

quote:

I can also tell you what Joe Zentner on Kodiak told me in a conversation in the 1970's. Two rounds of OO buck from a shotgun at a distance of 20 feet or less would stop any bear that walked the face of the earth. Old Joe killed more bears than anyone I know. He is long gone now but his experience told the story.

Now advice from Joe Zentner you can take to the bank. So rest assured you can kill bears with your shotgun.

The real question that I find most applicable to your fishing camp scenario is what weapon are you going to "always" have on your person? I have seen lots of situations where the rifle or shotgun gets set down on the bank when the fishing gets hot. Or worse yet left in camp on the last day because everyone is used to the bears and its too big of a hassle to bring it along anymore.
My vote goes for the pistol simply because it always fits into the chest waders and always works better then the long gun on the bank or the one left in camp.

quote:

The laws of ballistics are not influenced by opinion or personal experience, they don't lie.

I shoot a 525 gr slug at 1650 fps (p.377, Lyman 5th Ed.). Muzzle energy is 3174 ftlb.
I've killed 5 whitetail with the slug.
If you're talking 400 yd ballistics, I'll yield, but at the muzzle trying to stop a bear?

quote:

Originally posted by Ought-Six:

quote:

The laws of ballistics are not influenced by opinion or personal experience, they don't lie.

I shoot a 525 gr slug at 1650 fps (p.377, Lyman 5th Ed.). Muzzle energy is 3174 ftlb.
I've killed 5 whitetail with the slug.
If you're talking 400 yd ballistics, I'll yield, but at the muzzle trying to stop a bear?

Yea enough energy but still not the best tool for the job. Use the same Lyman manuel and compare energy of 500grain 458 bullet at 2100fps much better tool for stopping a bear.

My hunter had killed a 9' boar on Main Creek (Amber Bay) and while skinning it we found 2 loads of OObuck and 2 slugs all just under the hide on the front 1/2 of the bear. The slugs were against the chest plate but this was the spring and all the wounds had healed over. I wouldn't trust a shotgun on a big bear unless the muzzle was against the hide!

I don't realy have much expireance with slugs on big game. I've never considered a shotgun much of a weppon against a big bear due to the soft lead and large fromt suface of the slug. Just dosen't seem like something that would give good penatration regardles of how much energy it has.
The only time I've seen my theoery in practice was when one of my hunters went into some thick alders to try a last dich effort on a bull moose he had been watching for several days and couldn't get anything more than antlers above the brush on. Against all odds he got the shot at about 15 feet. As I recall he shot 5 times and only one or two penetrated into the body cavity. I remember one had actuly stopped on a rib without breaking it.
I know a lot of deer are taken every year by slugs but you can't compare a deer to a big brown bear (or moose).
I'm with Dirk if you want to kill a bear with 500 gr. then a .458 is the way to do it.

The Brenneke slugs aren't made with soft lead. It is actually very hard. Foster slugs made by the big three ammo companies are very soft and lack penetration. I would expect that the recovered slugs from the bear were not Brenneke's, but rather foster slugs as sold by Wal-mart, etc. I've had Brenneke's penetrate the full length of a deer. They penetrated so much that I quite using them deer hunting and went to the sabots. When I lived in the midwest slugs were required in my home state.

SS That was 1 instance I brought to light. Except for law enforcement following up on wounded or trouble bears ( 2 or more officers with high capacity auto's) I've never been around or heard a positive thing said about shotguns and slugs. We had a problem bear here while I was gone and 2 fishing guides sorted it out for my wife,,it had 6 slugs in it and 1 338,guess which did the most damage,(killed the bear). They are a point blank deterrent at best,IMHO.

I have shot hundreds and hundreds of foster type slug.

Naw give me a heveay for caliber 308 diam plus rifle please.

If that's true about the slugs and 338, and I don't doubt it at all, then a lot of Alaskan Sporting Goods owners and clerks are steering a lot of people in the wrong direction. I'm a big fan of large caliber rifles and was surprised at the slug recommendation that I recieved. I'm certain that if a brownie was intent on doing me bodily harm that a 458 would not seem like too much gun. BTW I have a good 338, 375 and 458. I'll just take one of them fishing next time I go to Alaska, hopefully summer of 2013. By the way is there a good 458 lure that I can use to catch salmon.

I would not use the lightfield comander or the old Hasting Laser slugs in that they are made out of pure lead and will not penetrate on large tough animals
I shot a 190 pound whitetail this fall with a 20g 3" laser slug behind the front shoulder, it broke a rib going in took off the top of his heart jellowed his lungs and slug and wad ended up under the skin after penetrating just the muscle part of his opposite shoulder,
penetration of about 18" The slug had a diameter of .55 inches, recovered slug was 1.15" at its widest and .95 at its narrowest
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Most slugs are made for shooting deer size game.

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Posted 04 December 2012 23:36 Hide Post
If that's true about the slugs and 338, and I don't doubt it at all, then a lot of Alaskan Sporting Goods owners and clerks are steering a lot of people in the wrong direction

Welcome to my ignore list!

Now the very interesting thing about the lightfield (formerly Hasting Laser) you can buy the wads by itself and the 20 gauge will handle 44 mag type bullets and the 12 gauge will handle 50 cal slugs, the only warning is the projectile should not protrude past the shell casing, check it out

http://www.slugsrus.com/

I think everyone can gather from the above posts that most Alaskans don't favor the shotgun with any load. While doing anything other than hunting or shooting, long guns are cumbersome or in the way. You just can't fly cast with a long gun in your hand or slung over your shoulder. If you come up here to fish but the long gun prevents you from fishing,..........the math don't add up.

It seems most favor either a handgun or pepper spray for bear defense. I always carry a handgun, my wife a handgun or pepper spray but we've never had to use either because we use our brains and thus far have not put ourselves or a bear in the position of having to defend ourselves.

If I had to use a 12 ga slug and I'd pick a 500 grain .458 every time! The reminton copper soild would be my choice. They are 1 oz at 1550fps. The have a deep hollowpoint with petals--Which I am positive would break off on a brown bear. But the bulk of the slug is a solid copper projectile, which penetrates like a solid.
In the 80's they also offered a 1 3/8 oz version, of which my hoard is 8 remaining. These were better than the 1 oz ones in penetration. I've put the 1 3/8 in the chest of boar and had them exit the ham. That would be the best IF I had to use a shotgun.

Reading this post is very interesting.
Guiding full time in Alaska for 30+ years and 8 years in Africa I have never used slugs. I used a .375 H+H or .416, Never had a problem with them.

I have no firsthand experience using shotguns loaded with slugs. I always assumed that a slug would have had good stopping power on a bear. Reading this post especially what Waterrat wrote I must admit my assumption was wrong. Thanks guys good information, I will stick with the rifles that I know work.

Jerry Jacques
Alaska Master Guide #110
www.Bristol-Bay.com

Jerry,welcome to the forum, where You will quickly find out that your real life experience count for little when compared with stories about what somebody, somewhere, once did in a book or someone's vivid imagination.

Saw a show a few years ago about the possible existance of the European Cave Bear on the Kamchatka Peninsula. They interviewed the most famous and most experienced Brown Bear guide there. Had killed 100s and had the skull of the "could be" cave bear (it was about 50% larger than any of the rest of his huge pile of Brown Bear skulls.) While they never answered the question of the Cave Bear, he proudly displayed his weapon used for 40+ years. It was a good old Model 12 12 bore pump gun using Foster Winchester 1 ounce slugs in paper cases ! He really liked having 7 shots quick.
Out in WYO where the Bears are smaller, when we're out riding (horses) outside of hunting season the most popular choices are 3" 12 bore 870s stoked with Black Magic Brenneke slugs or 10 Bore BPSs with 2 oz. slugs and triple O buck.
Either of these would settle any Bears hash right now. Most of us also carry large bore revolvers in tanker holsters in case the horse leaves or we happen to be dismounted.
Anyone who thinks a 10/12 bore heavy slug is not a very serious weapon for any North American just has never seen what they do to flesh & bone.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Jerry,welcome to the forum, where You will quickly find out that your real life experience count for little when compared with stories about what somebody, somewhere, once did in a book or someone's vivid imagination.

You sir hit the nail on the head! Its amazing to be in a gun shop and here guys say you cant put down a Brown with a (insert cal here). It drives me nuts. As a kid, I heard the 300 Win was the best bear cal there was, then it went to 338, then to 375, I'm not joking, just last week, the guy behind the counter told a new person to Alaska, that he needed a 416 at min for browns! Never is brought shot placement and and bullet construction. I have been on over 100 black bear kills, mostly with Archery equipment, however, it seems to me the bullet that killed blackbear the quickest was the 243...my two pennies. This a 5 bucks will get you a latte!

Phil thanks for the welcome.
It is nice to know that you are on this site. I know for a fact that any opinions you have on guns, flying or hunting are based on many decades of in the field experience.
I am new to forums as you can tell. Seeing that you and Waterrat are here is encouraging. You guys are the real deal and your opinions will always be very valuable because they are based on real life experience in the Alaska Bush.
Jerry Jacques
www.Bristol-Bay.com

This will not satisfy those who think slugs are the deadliest projectiles ever made but the only person I know who actually tried using them on large peninsula brown bears is Gary Folger, who is head of the Alaska State Troopers, F&W protection.
He told me he will never willingly try it again !
I wouldn't be afraid of smaller interior grizzlies or the average brown bear sow if all I had was a shotgun with slugs but on the largest boars I would certainly wish for more.

I once planned on moving to AK and guiding. I did a lot of research on this subject and found a piece by the forest service where they suggested the .458 win mag with 500 gr. soft points as the best for stopping a charge.
My practical experience on this subject is zero, but I recall that forest service report was based on a number of actual incidents,and the real field experience of real Alaskans.

Many years ago a couple of Police Officers came into the store where I was working at the time and asked for 12ga slugs as they needed to dispatch a couple of brown bears that were becoming a nuisance in their community. Knowing that foster style slugs don't penetrate all that well (they typically look like a lead washer when expanded) I suggested that they use the then available BRI sabot slugs instead. The response was that the BRI slugs would shoot through the bears and they did'nt want a bullet loose in town. I'm assuming that a broad side shot was going to be the shot chosen, but this was not a defensive situation where deeper penetration would be required.

Hello Jerry from me too, (Bob Couey) and welcome on board.I wondered what ever happened to you. I guess I'll see you flying around Iliamna again. Watch out for all the helocopters these days.