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One of Us |
And you are correct .458. Only a very few handguns are powerful enough to approach the punch of some rifles. A majority of hunters in the interior of Alaska also carry a handgun while hunting with a rifle. But in here we are mostly hunting moose, caribou, the occasional bear, and that latter aren't anything as big as the one you are holding on your hands While hunting I sometimes use a .22LR pistol to kill a grouse or two, so at the moment that is my sidearm. As I mentioned above somewhere, when I walk to a moose that I or one of my friends have shot, I carry a powerful sidearm in addition to my rifle, and have used the revolver to finish the animal if still alive on the ground close-by. | |||
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Ray There are a couple people here that think they are the only ones that are qualified to carry a handgun in AK. They both admit to carrying them for self-defense but routinely condemn others for even thinking about it. When it comes to carrying a handgun while hunting with a long gun I carry one most of the time. Because I see no need to take it off just because I pick up a long gun. | |||
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A small number of Alaska hunters don't carry a handgun while hunting with a rifle. But most do. A lot of the hunters I know carry sidearms, not necessarily for the purpose of defending themselves from moose or bears, but to finish the animal they have shot. Some carry sidearms for both reasons (I am one of these). I know this guy who hunts down in the valley toward the end of the trail, and he carries a semi-auto .45 caliber pistol just because of the great number of wolves, although he has shot of couple of grizzlies with a .375 H&H and also a .338WM rifle (he hunts with a rifle, and carries a sidearm). Another guy I know uses a Contender (or something like that) that has a .45-70 barrel for moose hunting in addition to a rifle. If the moose is close enough, he uses this gun instead of the rifle. That said, I understand what .458 is saying. His type of hunting, and backing his clients is much different than the hunting most of us do. Hunting moose and caribou can't approach the great danger of hunting the big bears. | |||
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It comes down to individual comfort, experience, skill and piece of mind. I usually hunt alone and don't have the luxury of a partner or a guide to back me up. I respect and understand the potential of alpha predators against human prey. I will never enter their domain unarmed and without a capable rifle FIRST. I am also familiar with murphy's law. When your life is on the line, you do not put your eggs in one basket. Anything mechanical/man made can malfunction at the worst of time. You better have a second REASONABLE viable option. A second rifle or shotgun is too heavy and impractical. Pepper spray is not an option I am willing to stake my life on. A handgun is the most practical last resort scenario. I carry a S&W .44mag. 329 titanium/scandium revolver with a XS 24/7 big dot sight in a leather chest holster from Double D holsters in AK. I stoke it with Federal 225grain Barnes TSX bullet. I know it is light for grain but if you ever test it for penetration and expansion you will be impressed. The second round is a 300grain Garrett hard cast bullet designed for this particular gun. I load the gun in this sequence for the rest of the cylinder. I also have two loaded aluminum speed loaders from Double D and are part of the chest holster. Because I wear it and don't carry it, it balances well and is ALWAYS with me. In fact I have slept many a nights with it on in my sleeping bag in a pup tent deep in the wilderness. Love it. I have never had to use it for emergency and hope I never do, But I am prepared and will not be lazy and leave it home or in camp. An animal will NOT give you a time out! When forced to dance, be ready to tango or you Will become salsa. Never mind the free make over/cosmetic surjury/mayhem. It is always our call... be safe don't gamble on chance. Be responsible and prepared. Charles | |||
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Ray, "A small number of Alaska hunters don't carry a handgun while hunting with a rifle. But most do." I'm sure this is based on your experience in your area but in the 22 years I lived in Dillingham in SW, AK I never ran into a hunter local or otherwise that carried a handgun while actually hunting. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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You may be correct about the areas you hunt. I hunt in the interior, toward the Elliott and Dalton highways, or toward the Steese. In addition to hunters from Fairbanks and vicinity, we have lots of moose and caribou hunters from Anchorage. I seldom see a hunter not carrying a handgun during moose season, from small caliber guns such as the .22LR all the way up. Since I can only speak for myself, when I carry a .22 pistol it's for shooting a grouse or two for dinner. Otherwise my .454 Casull is my sidearm of choice. Of 4 hunters at my campsite, only one leaves his handgun in the tent. Also, lets not forget that only a very small fraction of Alaska hunters hang around hunting forums; just a handful as you can see above. Perhaps I should have referred to the interior of Alaska. | |||
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I have to agree with Mark as well as I would say less than 10% of the hunters I have run into over the past 35 years were carrying both a rifle and a handgun, and the majority of them were non-residents. If you are hunting on from a 4 wheeler, snowgo or boat that is one thing but if you are hunting on foot Alaska is big,tough country and one quickly learns to discard usless weight. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Phil, that photo above...looks like Rocky will be making stew tonight? :-) | |||
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While the 10% figure may be accurate, I think the real question is how many of the 10% who do carry a sidearm, who have little or no recent Handgun training and little practice with their new hand cannon, can actually accurately place their shots, under stress, in life and death situation? Likely, VERY few. I do hunt with a sidearm. I do not take it while Sheep or Goat hunting. But, I do take it Brown Bear hunting, Deer hunting on kodiak, or basically anything other than Mtn. hunting. If you are fit, the weight means little. I use the largest caliber that I can quickly and accurately place my shots with. For me, while it is not the ideal, it is a .357 with 180 Gr. Buffalo Bore. Better several rapid hits from a light caliber/bullet combo, than some misses from someones .454 Casull, or the like. Cold Zero | |||
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Every word you wrote can also be said about rifles. I used to see a very petite lady at the fire range on South Cushman (Fairbanks), shooting a .375 H&H rifle. Another lady I knew years ago, not only reloaded .338 ammo for her husband, but shot his .338's during load development at the range. He could not handled the repeated recoil of his rifles. Regardless of firearm and hitting the right spot, size does not matter if one does not practice with it. To me the Freedom Arms .454 Casull with a 7-1/2" Magna-Ported barrel is quite easy to shoot, and very accurate. Would I freeze, flee, or turn into a Grizzly Adams in a life and death situation? Who knows? That's a matter of speculation. | |||
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Recoil is very subjective for sure. | |||
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This was a life and death situation. While I don't thing that having a sidearm would have helped this guide because the bear was already dying and moving away, I am certain that if he could have cleared his rifle's chamber he would have taken another shot at the bear. Anyway, this was a lucky fellow: http://www.fieldandstream.com/node/1005010648 | |||
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I would imagine trying to hit any kind of a charging animal, especially a suprise charge with anything less than a 12 gauge with buckshot is going to be problematic with a heavy recoiling handgun. If it ever happens to me the fur on the animal is going to have powder burns. Whether it's a rabid skunk or a grouchy cow moose. It will probably be too late, but I'm looking at 3-5 yards with me in reverse before hitting the trigger on my snubbie 460. I'm carrying 45LC's in it HC 335 grains, and it has the recoil impulse of a 44 mag. 3-5 yards DA is about my killzone at that level. When I'm a bit closer to home I'm carrying a 681 with 140 JHP Barnes for two and four legged unfriendlys. With that get up I'm good to 7-10 yards rapid DA. Both in DD chest holsters. | |||
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If I'm just out wandering or fishing, I carry a shoulder carry 44 mag. If I'm hunting or going somewhere where I honestly think I might have a problem, I carry a rifle only. I've hunted the interior for 33 years and almost never see a rifle hunter carrying a sidearm. If I carry one while hunting it's a 22 just in case I run into dinner for that night. | |||
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Yep, either or. As I've gotten older carrying both rifle and pistol just isn't comfortable. I can use that extra weight somewhere else, preferably in my pack. Hatchet for example. | |||
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Another life and death situation: http://www.adn.com/article/201...-mauling-near-kodiak | |||
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Hunt around Washington, Aggie, and Globe Creeks and you will see plenty of us with sidearms. The same down by the end of the trail at mile 33 (by the water in the valley below). | |||
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I grew up with friends who always carry a pistol when out rifle hunting and never understood why. I tried it a few times, but always felt it was just extra weight that I was carrying around without any purpose. Reading through these posts, I'm still at a loss as to why you would carry a pistol with you and a rifle. There isn't a pistol out there that has as much power as a rifle, and if the animal is close enough for a pistol to be effective, I sure as hell want to use the most powerful tool at my disposal to stop the animal, not the smallest. | |||
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There are numerous reasons why some of us carry a sidearm, as has been mentioned above, but I will point out some: a. For example, read the story about the guide who was tracking a bear (I posted the link somewhere above). In this case the guide jammed the rifle, so he tried the clear the jamb while the bear was chewing on his leg. Then the other link points to a couple of hunters, one who had been mauled by a bear, and the other shooting a bear with his pistol. They had rifles, but nothing is said in the story why he decided to use a pistol. Maybe the rifles were out of reach at the moment? Don't really know. b. One should always match the gun and load to the animal being hunted. We all say that all the time, right? In this case a bow hunter should not need a sidearm to hunt, but more than likely he or she carries one. The same can be said for a spear hunter, or a rifle hunter. The problem with that assumption is that in the event that the spear breaks, or the rifle jambs and you can't clear it, you can't use the weapon at the moment. c. Every hunter assumes that the rifle is not going to malfunction, and that the loaded ammo is always going to fire. We never think that one is going to drop the rifle out of reach somewhere, or that one is going to walk through a thicket the will prevent you from using the rifle, one never thinks that a bear or other animal is going to rip the rifle from your hands, nor that a bear could be so close that you can't turn or point the rifle. d. A sidearm can be used for self protection in the event that for whatever reason it's not possible to use the primary weapon used for hunting, be it a spear, bow, or a rifle. If for whatever reason on a life and death situation you can't use your rifle, but can use a knife, wouldn't you use it? But as mentioned by some in this forum, the use of a sidearm is a matter of choice, and a personal issue. By the way, there are some revolvers out there that at the muzzle have as much power as some rifles, and more power than some other rifles. | |||
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Bowie knives are another highly useful item typically carried by hunters who are packing both large caliber pistols and rifles. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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redundancy/redundancy/redundancy "Redundancy is the duplication of critical components or functions of a system with the intention of increasing reliability of the system, usually in the form of a backup or fail-safe." . | |||
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According to the accounts of Lewis and Clark, their crew members carried big knives in addition to their rifles. I was reading a story about a hunter who arrowed a bear, in Montana I believe, so he plus two friends started tracking the bear by night fall and shortly after injuring it, instead of waiting and tracking it in the morning. One of two friends had a pistol, and the other a knife. The dying bear jumped the one with the knife and mauled him badly, but he remembered that he had a knife on his side and stabbed the bear numerous times. He was lucky to survive the ordeal. The story can be found by a Google search of, "hunter gets mauled by bear." Now, I don't hunt bears, juts moose. But I have seen very large grizzlies killed by other hunters. These guys and girls (families, usually), pass my campsite by the trail, and make it all the way down to the valley below. About 15 to 20 years ago, a guy from Anchorage killed a record grizzly. If I well remember it was 9'6" or something like that. Then about 3 years ago, another guy and his son killed another grizzly that made it to the records book, but smaller than the first. We all know each other on this area (about 30 hunters), but it has been getting crowded with new moose hunters lately, although those hang around the trailhead on burned areas not too far from the trail. This year we have two wildfires next to each other, so I have no idea if we will be able to hunt moose on the ridge instead of the valleys at each side. One of the fires is already around 25,000 acres. | |||
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"According to the accounts of Lewis and Clark, their crew members carried big knives in addition to their rifles." Sounds like they were a bunch of mall ninjas from the City, lets make fun of them. I was reading a story about a hunter who arrowed a bear, in Montana I believe, so he plus two friends started tracking the bear by night fall and shortly after injuring it, instead of waiting and tracking it in the morning. One of two friends had a pistol, and the other a knife. The dying bear jumped the one with the knife and mauled him badly, but he remembered that he had a knife on his side and stabbed the bear numerous times. He was lucky to survive the ordeal. The story can be found by a Google search of, "hunter gets mauled by bear."[/QUOTE] I'm sure these guys feel that bringing a knife or a handgun when others choose not too was a big mistake. Cold Zero | |||
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I have been watching ALone on the History channel. I like to watch the Alaska / Remote area type shows. If I can't be there, at least I can watch it on TV and hit the kitchen on the commercial breaks . There are some pretty big knives on that show. Check it out. Cold Zero | |||
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I'm sure these guys feel that bringing a knife or a handgun when others choose not too was a big mistake.[/QUOTE] I am old already, so I can't stand a chance, but this young guy did: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014...bear-during-mauling/ | |||
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Hey! I have one of those! Actually I think its sort of a funny story; I saw on the computer and bought one of those enormous Cold Steel Laredo Bowie knives thinking it'd be good for separating the legs from hip sockets and shoulder blades from chest on a "Reduced To Possession" moose. I'm fairly certain it was one of those December/ January type purchases, not really seeing a whole lot of light of day things. Well I wore the ten pound of steel around for a week while hunting and thought it was a galactic pain in the fanny, however I finally shot a nice bull and got to work! Holy Cow was I wrong, the silly thing swung like a pirates cutlass. I think I used it for half the butchering job and threw it down in favor of my usual size regular knife. Ray, I think we'd take you a little more seriously if you'd of not mentioned your, "Gotta cell phone, VHF radio, satellite dish, microwave, (3) Honda generators, 60" flat screen tv, pack string of Polaris Rhino's, propane stove and refer, Select Comfort Sleep Number bed and goose down comforter with me!" camp. Were I to be staying in the Good Sam Campground with you I'd likely be wearing a pair of .45's around my waist General Patton style, why stop at one! In addition to my rifle. For those of us that get to hunt via jet boat, pack string, back pack or small aircraft, needless, useless, trivial consumer goods like person protection handguns get to stay home. The 60" flat screen too. | |||
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We just rough it up out there To my hunting friends and I it is a mini vacation. Every one of us has his own tent. Mine is an 8' x 10" Wall tent that's set on an elevated plywood platform. One of the guys, a local gunsmith, has a 10' x 12' Kodiak tent, while another that a 12' x 14' canvas tent. A sleep alone (can't stand snoring), and they bring family members to hunt with them every now and then. we eat, steaks, bacon and eggs or pancakes for breakfast, and so on. I bring precooked and frozen rice, beans, chicken, moose stew, and the rest in glass jars (I like all kinds of spices in my food). We ride ATV's 8 miles on a trail to our campsite. The generator is for dark nights when I want to read in my tent, and when we kill a moose in the evening since we always immediately take care of it regardless of how dark it is. Hard work is our motto, but that kind of hunting life is real rough ---------- By the way, I use an utility knife with a hook blade to open the hide of moose, then a small skinner to "peel" it. For the leg bone and socket one of my friends uses a regular size knife, but a paring knife is just about perfect. We can take care of a moose in two hours if we want, but usually take three. Everything is bagged carefully, and the tenderloins as well as back straps are bagged in their own bags. We debone the ribs and neck to save room; the neck meat goes into two separate bags, and the rib meat in one. I am the fastest skinner in the group, while one of my friends is the "surgeon" taking care of the delicate cutting around the "moosehood," separating the legs, back straps and tenderloins. | |||
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The cellphones are for staying in touch with the family, and for emergencies. I don't have a data plan, just text and voice, while another guy has everything, including GPS. The radios in the tents are for keeping the bears away, and for listening "radio talk" (right winger types, of course) on rainy days we can't hunt. As I said before, it's real rough for me during moose season out there. Did I mention that we have chainsaws too? We must have lots of firewood at the campsite. The BBQ in the middle of the campsite consists of a clothes washer's tub that has a very short column inside, and the 12" fire-logs fit perfectly inside. The whole cooking area is covered with tarps to keep the rain out. | |||
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There are rough hunting where you carry every thing on your back where every oz. counts. There's semi rough hunting where more stuff can be carried boats, canoes atv's ect. Then there's lodge's where one comes back to a nice warm cabin with a nice meal prepared for you. Each has it's merits and joys I have done a lot of the first too. Very little of the third. As I have gotten older the more creature comfort I like. | |||
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Very true. I started hunting late in life after my first retirement in the early '90s, and it was rough hunting. As I got older spending time in the outdoors hunting, camping, taking photos, and the rest...I decided that hunting from that moment on would be an enjoyable vacation in the company of friends and family. So every year, instead of taking a vacation away from Alaska, I spend the time outdoors during moose season. Nowadays I am with you about "creature comfort." That's exactly what my friends and I have been doing. | |||
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I don't always carry a handgun when I'm hunting with a big game rifle or shotgun in Alaska, but when I do, it's a short-barreled .357 Mag with Buffalo Bore 180 gr ammo. Better to carry bear spray, but if all else fails, hopefully the .357 Mag at ten to zero feet is enough to get me, or a friend or loved one, to the hospital alive. There is no way to field dress, etc. big game with a rifle in your hands, and I dare anyone who had ever cleaned a big game animal next to a wall of alder to say they weren't on edge. The current model de jur is a Wiley Clapp version of the Ruger SP101. If you are going to carry a big stick, you've got to whack someone with it at least every once in while. | |||
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I stole back a stolen bull from what I figgered was a 8-9' bear. My partner and I left a rifle at the boat, a rifle at the carcass, both loaded and off safety. We figgered that with a distance of no more than 30yds between the two rifles one of us would be able to get to one and fire in short order. Nothing happened, never saw him/ her, and I didn't feel the slightest need for a pistol. | |||
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I'm glad it worked out for you and their were no girlie man feelings. If you are going to carry a big stick, you've got to whack someone with it at least every once in while. | |||
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Carry one, don,t carry one, kinda like the mandatory fire extinguisher in a big rig. Mostly dead weight, and mostly useless most of the time. However, there are odd occasions when either one can come in handy, and you either have one handy, or you don,t. Guess I,m kind of a cream puff, I tend to carry a hand gun more often than not. | |||
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Don't forget to have a lanyard, firmly attached at both ends. Many years ago in SE Alaska a man was mauled by a brownie. His buddies asked him why he didn't shoot the bear with the 357 on his hip. He said he was to busy covering up. | |||
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Thanks for that! Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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I'm glad Phil injected a little humor in this post! | |||
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Then several years ago there was a bow hunter in the Copper Valley area who arrowed a large grizzly, and decided to track it. His back-up was a friend who was armed with a short-barreled shotgun loaded with slugs. The bow hunter was charged by the bear, and while being mauled badly he managed to pull out a .44 Magnum revolver and shoot the bear one time on the neck. He was very lucky as the bullet severed the bear's jugular vein, and in turn bleeding to death on top of him. When his back-up saw the bear mauling his friend, he panicked and ran. Later the bow hunter managed to get up from under the bear, and walk several miles for help. It was published by the News Miner around 20 years ago, if I well remember. ------- The moral to the story: if you are a bow hunter from the lower-48, make sure that your "backup" is not going to run or shoot you when you are being mauled | |||
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My revolvers are typically not my side-arm..but are my hunting firearms. I would have no issues having a revolver for either a sidearm or primary weapon against anything, including the large bears. I usually use a scoped DW 445SM or scoped 410GNR Ruger Bisley BH custom for much of my hunting, however for the Alaskan experience it would be a scoped FA in 454 Casull with an open site custom Reeder BMF revolver in 500 S&W as a back-up. Of course, I am not stupid so I would have that backed up with a heavy rifle by a partner if I was exclusively hunting for a brownie. I am a handgun hunter and rarely use rifles although I do have many from .22rf-505Gibbs. Most underestimate the penetration/damage a fast moving cast slug from a 454 or moderate speed 475/50 caliber cast slug can do to flesh and bone. | |||
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I carry a Hamilton Bowen Ruger N.M. Super Blackhawk 7 1/2" barrel in Stainless Steel, with a 2 lb trigger pull, tanker holster in 45 Colt with cast bullets. Senator Life Member NRA Life Member CA Rifle & Pistol Assoc. DOJ Certified Handgun Instructor Rocky Mt. Elk Foundation NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
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