A section of the Kenai River was temporarily closed after two fishermen shot charging bears over the weekend, including a brown bear sow with cubs surprised by two men bushwhacking through the woods." ...

"Both bears were injured when shot with .44-caliber pistols on different days and at different locations. ..."

"The first incident happened Friday night when a couple of men were bushwhacking off-trail and startled the brown bear sow with cubs. She charged, and a man shot and hit her, Johnson said. ..." ...

"A group of people were fishing when a black bear got too aggressive with them, he said. They chased it off. It came back. A man shot the bear, which Johnson tried to track but lost in the dark.

Doesn't sound like either of them were charges, rather folks that were scared of bears, shot and wounded them. In those cases, I'd much rather see the nimrods armed with pepper spray. Too many bears are shot that didn't have to be.

This is a sad time of year.....people crowding the bears and the bears come out on the short end of the stick as always.....bushwhacking on a salmon stream during the run is just showing extreme ignorance on the part of the fishermen.....just like the guy standing in the stream waving his pistol and screaming at a brownie obviously trying to incite it to charge after other fishermen had left the pool to the bear......maybe the state should close the river to fishermen during the salmon run.....fair is fair....we bear hunters don't get a season on brownies here on the Kenai Pen. due to the DLPs that occur before a season is considered in October and just that sow will count as three against the DLP numbers.......I bet, if the river were closed to fishermen during the run, that in the future folks would be a bit less trigger happy and would gladly(sensibly) give up a hole to the brownie for a couple of hours while the bear just eats.

Joe

Yup, sad situation. These bears are more interested in the fish than people. Lots of fishermen have been around these bears without a problem. Get some trigger happy clowns out there with a gun and they'll even shoot out the speed limit signs for fun.

I do not see any where in the posting that would lead one to belive that they were not good shootings.

Where is charged by a sow brown bear not a charge. I agree that the black bear doesn't sound like a charge but a it sure sounds like a predatory black bear to me. They chased it off once and it came back again sounds like a good one to get rid of.

So one should never go off the path or into the bush because one might run into a bear and shoot it in selfdefense.

One is jumping to lots of negtives on the shooters for not being there.

PDS,

How many times have you been there and observed the situation during the salmon runs...if you've been there once, it should be enough to understand the mass of humanity invading an area that contains a major bear food source....it's never a sound idea to go bushwhacking along a salmon stream during the run, especially when there is a KNOWN, healthy bear population fishing the same area.....no one here is jumping to negatives.....this goes on every year and it's not necessary, in a majority of the encounters, to have to shoot the bear. The only thing predatory about that black bear was he wanted to fish in the same spot as the people...you stated yourself, "they chased it off once and it came back"....why didn't they just leave after the first encounter?.....now, we have a dead black bear & instead of two brown bear cubs w/no sow, we have four along that same stretch unless the last two have been destroyed by F&G. Color the picture any way you like, it still smells....

Joe

orvis Yes I have been up there.

So we should close the river to thousands of fisherman so a few can hunt a bear.

DLP kills are a fact of life only way to cut down on them as you state is to close the river off to others besides those hunting bears.

So you have a shortage of black bears in the area. The lost of the brown bear isn't nice but if it were you getting charged and doing the shooting would you be singing a differant tune.

Depending on the age of the cubs they might or might not survive. This years most likely not last years a good chance they could.

There is no indication that any charges were filed in the shootings so we must think that they were proper.

I guess Iam not a good bear mind reader I guess you are knowing that the black just wanted to fish the same hole maybe maybe not. Or was it looking for a little larger game.

They could have left after the frist encounter but the bear would have soon learned to confront humans to get what it wants. So I guess the next group in the area with little kid along that doesn't get out of the bears way fast enough and get chomped would be a good thing.

It seems to me that with the large amount of people in the area and with the bears there. there are not more shootings.

The reason there are not more shootings with all the people there is, 99+% of the people manage to not find an excuse to shoot a bear, nor put themselves in a position where they have to shoot a bear.

As far as my conclusion the bears didn't need to be shot, if they were only injured, and the nimrods didn't have teeth/scratch marks on them, then they weren't being threatened.

If you're going to pack, you shoot to kill, not the scare, not to wound.

pds,

Where did I say there was a shortage of black bears????? There are plenty of black bear here.

Like I said, color it any way you like, it still smells.

Joe

Paul so your saying as long as the bear doesn't actual maul you it is not a a good shooting.

Thats kind of like saying as long as a robber didn't get a bullet in you it wasn't proper to shoot him.

Reminds me of some of the Africa countrys where if you didn't have teeth marks or claw marks or were not tramped by what ever how did you know they were going to attack you.

All I can say to that is BS.

So 99 plus % of every body in the country have no reason to shoot a roober or mugger or someone trying to rape them. So they must be at fault for putting themselfs into the spot when they have to defend themselfs. Yea right. Just because 99plus % do not have to defend themselfs does not mean the few that do are wrong in doing so.

Ovis sure sounded like you were complaining about the death of the black bear.

The fellows that shot the brownie, evidently had been warned that there was an aggressive sow and cubs in that little triangle of brush. Sounds to me like they went looking for trouble.

I have no problem if the shoot is righteous, but like Ovis said, this one smells. BTW, I'm of the opinion that if you are going to pack a firearm for bear protection (and I do) that you should shoulder the responsibility of that and finish what you start. If those bears didn't run off and die somewhere, we now have two aggressive bears that have been wounded and are madder than a wet hornet. The next person that comes across them might get killed because of it.

BTW, the 44 didn't work, bears are wounded and run off.

If you go walking through the worst part of town at 1am, is that prudent? Because someone looks scary and is close to you, does that mean you should shoot them?

In a real charge, the bear will be determined, and you will have to either kill it, or you'll be facing some damage.

I'm not saying that bears never have to be killed in DLP, but, I am saying most of them that are shot, didn't need to be. I like all of Alaska's animals, I like to look at them, and I like to eat them. I don't like them being arbitrarily shot just because someone was stupid.

The 99% number are the folks that manage to fish and walk through the woods without having to shoot a bear.

pds,

Obviously you don't know much about the area as you're thinking along the lines of the river area only being affected by the DLPs when it comes to brown bear hunting......and it affects more than just a few bear hunters.....it affects the enitre Kenai Peninsula, which is about one third of the land area of your state of Wisconsin.

The area the sow brownie was using was posted with signs(paper, such as they are) and it was common knowledge among the fishermen there that the bears were there.

This past weekend, there was a sow black bear w/cubs, on a trail commonly used by hikers across Katchemak Bay(Homer area), that got a little testy....did F&G or anyone else shoot her? No, they didn't....the area was posted and is currently being avoided.

Now, pds, you say I sure sounded like I was complaining about the black bear being shot.....well, your damn right I'm complaining....about the brownie, too.....bears are part of the landscape here....obviously the brownie sow had enough left to get away or at least go off and die.....if she had been pressing a charge home, she still had enough left to do a lot of damage.......

It still smells, and all the coloring you want to do won't make it smell any better.

Joe

DPhillips so when you stop a bear from mauling you. The fire arm did not work because the bear did not drop at your feet nor die. Bull shit. The idea behind a defense arm is to stop you from being hurt or killed by your attacker.

These shooters were not hurt.

So Paul every time a bear does not make contact nor mauls the shooter That shooter is in the wrong for defending ones self. Again Bull shit.

Orvis I guess we should do away with the law allowing DLP shootings let the bears do what they may because it is more important to save a bear for a hunter then save some humans life. Pass a law allowing no one but hunters to carry guns then only hunter could and would shoot the bears.

DPhillips, Ovis, and Paul H. you guys said it all better than I can. Here's one at about 20 yards "charging" me and I had to shoot it with my 35mm concealed carry pocket c amera.

Oh, and here's another one coming directly at me but I just had a burrito so he did not want any part of me. He'd rather have the salmon.

Lots of controversy! I think Alaskan F&G should come up with a system for fishing in bear country. For instance, in order to obtain a fishing licence you must comply with "bear awareness training". If anything it will teach the "average joe" what can be expected and to look for in confrontations, with bears.
I'm using "bears" in a general term, as encounters with different species and genders will vary greatly.

Hardballer,

Sure glad you got that Burrito down in time......bet you had that camera on full auto....must have taken twenty or so frames to get those shots....

Nice photos.....tough to do w/a bear in full charge, 20' away, bearing down on you and all....:~)

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
Hardballer,

Sure glad you got that Burrito down in time......bet you had that camera on full auto....must have taken twenty or so frames to get those shots....

Nice photos.....tough to do w/a bear in full charge, 20' away, bearing down on you and all....:~)

Joe

I'll second that! Nice pics. I guess you didn't resemble a Burrito to the bear!

Why can't the 'tourists' carry some flash bangs as a deterrant?

Nice pictures dosen't look like either of those two are charging.

We all should know just because a bear is close doesn't mean it is charging.

Body posture, eye contact sound ect all go into deciding if a bear is intent on doing harm to you ect.

Take those same two bears with there ears laid back, hair raised on the neck and back, lips curled showing their teeth growling and poping their teeth one could get a differant picture.

Are all DLP kills good and proper charges who knows unless one is there at the time and sees what the bear was acting like when it is coming at you It is hard to say.

As with any self denfense shooting split seconds can make the differants beween life and death shooting or not shooting. You pass the scene seconds before the robber starts raising his gun at the victim you might say he had no right shooting there wasn't a threat at that time. You look away and did not see the gun coming up and only heard the shots you picture of what happened is totaly differant then the shooters.

You walk down the street and you see a happy go lucky pit bull playing with the kids the next second his ears are laided back and his teeth are bared and his growling as he runs towards you. You defend your self. The guy who just walked past him hears you shoot sees the dead dog. He say how could you the dog was just playing with the kids he was no threat.

99 plus percent of bears do not charge or attemp to attack humans saying these shootings were wrong because most bears do not is wrong.

I too have had bears walk with in feet of me did I shoot them no. Did I pay attention to the actions you bet. If they would have turned and threaten me and came for me would I have shot them you bet I would have.

p dog shooter has some good points. The fact is that many people go into Alaskas' wilderness terrified of bears and packing adequate firepower to settle their nerves about running into a bear. And if and when the confrontation occurrs they have already made up their mind they are going to blast the thing with everything they've got, I hear it all the time. There is no solution, those of us that have spent time around bears have an understanding of what the difference is in bumping into a bear and being charged by a bear, that only comes with miles in the field. There are lots of guys that fish but dont hunt and therefore are great anglers but have no idea how to read the body language of many animals. Its not their fault its just a shame everytime an animal has to die for unjust reasons. The river is theirs, in my opinion, not ours, they were there long before we were and the more populated fishing areas push guys to hike into areas that are the bears retreats from the river so it is inevitable that they will be startled and bumped into in the thick stuff. When I go into the thick stuff (and I have done it,crawling in their tunnels along streams)I make damn sure to make lots of noise day or night is of no relevance. I have heard them blast away through the alders because they heard us talking loudly while crawling on all fours. You just have to understand the lay of the land. If your a bear where would you go to take a nap and digest some of the fish you've been eating, down where everybodys fishing? The other thing is that these stories always seem to change or sound fishy when the initial DLP incidents hit the news, then later on you hear different versions of the story, the interesting part is that you hardly ever have true charges, the kind where someone is actually injured, there is no doubt on a charging bear, and those that have truly been charged have had much larger weapons than .44 mag peashooters and still had the scars to show from their confrontation. Thats why so many of us call BS on most of these supposed charges that were deterred with pistols, in my opinion they were never charging! Talk to some of the guys that have actually been charged and you'll hear the true story on how a bear charge goes down.

/

None of us are claiming bears never charge, nor that folks are never justified in shooting those bears.

What we are trying to comunicate is that not all bears that are shot needed to be shot. Just as cops on occasion shoot folks that weren't a threat when the truth comes out.

I don't think being scared or stressed is reason enough to open fire on man or beast, but others seem to have a different take.

+1 Paul, Alf I was not disputing the fact that a bear can and will under certain circumstanes attack man, its just that these attacks in the areas the have a large congestion of both people and brown bears are actually far and few in between concerning the odds (bears-human per square mile figures would astonish many).

If I see a bear close to me, and he looks threatning, I shoot. I'd rather argue with a steely eyed Game Warden than a beady eyed bear.
Game Wardens may throw you in jail but I don't think they will eat you.

TJ, How close is close? Has he/she(the bear) had an opportunity to flee the area, do you understand that the animal needs to process in its brain what you are, why your standing on your hind legs, does none of that matter or if its say inside 30 yards it's dead? Guy these resources arent going to be around forever, is there no respect for the animals anymore its just about us? This is the kind of mindset that is killing our wilderness resources everywhere. I enjoy bearhunting and get a lot of enjoyment from it, but game time is gametime and its a pretty small percentage of the time. You may have a lot of disdain towards bears because some areas in our state have some insane politics on if,when and how you can hunt them but c'mon I enjoy seeing them as much as the next guy. Aint had one do anything too stupid yet, but am fully aware of the consequences of Alaska wild attributes.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Nice pictures dosen't look like either of those two are charging.

We all should know just because a bear is close doesn't mean it is charging.

Body posture, eye contact sound ect all go into deciding if a bear is intent on doing harm to you ect.

Take those same two bears with there ears laid back, hair raised on the neck and back, lips curled showing their teeth growling and poping their teeth one could get a differant picture.

Are all DLP kills good and proper charges who knows unless one is there at the time and sees what the bear was acting like when it is coming at you It is hard to say.

As with any self denfense shooting split seconds can make the differants beween life and death shooting or not shooting. You pass the scene seconds before the robber starts raising his gun at the victim you might say he had no right shooting there wasn't a threat at that time. You look away and did not see the gun coming up and only heard the shots you picture of what happened is totaly differant then the shooters.

You walk down the street and you see a happy go lucky pit bull playing with the kids the next second his ears are laided back and his teeth are bared and his growling as he runs towards you. You defend your self. The guy who just walked past him hears you shoot sees the dead dog. He say how could you the dog was just playing with the kids he was no threat.

99 plus percent of bears do not charge or attemp to attack humans saying these shootings were wrong because most bears do not is wrong.

I too have had bears walk with in feet of me did I shoot them no. Did I pay attention to the actions you bet. If they would have turned and threaten me and came for me would I have shot them you bet I would have.

Pdog...I was just trying to lighten up the discussion. It's all good man. I've been lucky enough to spend times around bears up here and I don't have as much bear-anoia as I used to. I do pack when I am out playing in the woods but I don't shoot the first bear that comes close to me as you can see in the pics.

The most dangerous thing in the kenia peninsula is all the over armed tourists with irational fear of bears. I swear they actually want a negative bear encounter just so they can have a cool story to tell when they get back home. All of these people need to stay away. I just spent three days down there armed only with a noisy 2 year old and a 9ft fishing pole. Worked like a charm. I was even camping!!!!

I saw a bear "run" two guys off the river on the second day. To hear them telling their harrowing tale back at grayling parking lot you would think it was only thier stealy nerve under pressure that kept them from being killed and probably consumed by the 400-500lb brown bear that "attacked" them.

I must have had a bad angle at to view it from because all I saw was a small brownie cub walk to the edge of the river, look out and then amble back into the woods. Followed closely by a feverish, frantic scrable of two middle aged men up the bank and back towards the parking lot, one waving a glock around at ever twig or leave rustle.

If people aren't mentally prepared to fish in bear country I suggest they take up golf!

Thebear thats way more of an accurate piction to all these charges than whats being told in my opinion!

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:
The most dangerous thing in the kenia peninsula is all the over armed tourists with irational fear of bears. I swear they actually want a negative bear encounter just so they can have a cool story to tell when they get back home. All of these people need to stay away.

I don't have a link to the original story. But from the quotes in the original post there's no indication that these bears weren't shot by locals. The last DLP shooting that I heard about in the Kenai Peninsula was when two guys from Soldotna shot a huge boar on 05 June while approaching their bear bait. That was on another BB, and those two guys got a lot of heat for what was assumed to be a bogus shooting.

Most DLP shootings may not be necessary, but most DLP shootings are done by Alaskans and not tourists.

That is true China Sailor. We have lots of gun toting folks that live here incapacitated with bearanoia of the brain. Most of them are not experienced outdoorsman, I work with 30 of them. They are more concerned with bears than enjoying the experiences they have in the outdoors. Its really pretty sad.

cub:
I guess I've been "properly chastised", for my opinions on bears.
How close the bears is, is not as important as how threatning he is acting. Close to me would be, if the bear can get to me before I can shoot, that's to close.
No, I don't understand a bears brain process. I doubt you do either. I do know a few things about why a bear does what he does, but certainly not everything.
I have more respect for Brown Bears than I do for some people. They are exceptionally intelligent. I've seen them do things that would require them to solve a problem, not just act on instinct.
Folks with my mindset killed all our resources? My mindset is, if I think a bear is going to make me his lunch, I shoot.
Distain for bears. How did you read that in my comments? Caution and a little fear maybe, but no distain.

TJ nice set of skulls. Would you mine posting the side to brain and nose to brain measurements on the biggest ones.

So one could see how much penetration it would take to get to the brain.

I guess there is a lot of truth to the fact that there are a lot of idiots in alaska too. I just get sick of them sometimes. You can't go five minutes in a sporting goods store, gunshop, or even this forum without seeing or hearing something about adequate bear protection. It really gets on my nerves, from how much discussion there is on the topic you would think somebody was getting nabbed by a bear every day. What we ought to be talking about is adequate caliber for mosquitos!!!I garantee that there is more blood spent by mosquitoes in a given year than there is by bears.

I guess attack of the killer mosquitoes doesn't have near the "dramatic effect" as a bear attack story.

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:
I guess there is a lot of truth to the fact that there are a lot of idiots in alaska too. I just get sick of them sometimes. You can't go five minutes in a sporting goods store, gunshop, or even this forum without seeing or hearing something about adequate bear protection. It really gets on my nerves, from how much discussion there is on the topic you would think somebody was getting nabbed by a bear every day. What we ought to be talking about is adequate caliber for mosquitos!!!I garantee that there is more blood spent by mosquitoes in a given year than there is by bears.

I guess attack of the killer mosquitoes doesn't have near the "dramatic effect" as a bear attack story.

Best post in the whole thread.

Alot of people over react to bears, at Denali we had a real quick bear training program for people getting backcountry permits,,,I think it helped alot. Fact is a suprise incounter will always raise the pulse rate a few notches I pulled my weapon several times when suprised by a bear ,and some people just dont react well to stress like my ex Alaskan girlfriend.
One climbed my wood pile and looked into my bedroom window where I was in bed,,,a loud scream at close range was enough to give us both the get the heck outa there reaction,,,girlfriends yell....bear and I both ran,,,,:^)

p dog, sorry for the delay.
Looks like 4 " from the side bone to the outside of the skull. 7.5" to 8" from the nose to the front of skull.
The skull plate on front of the brain looks like about 1.5 ". The side skull is about 3/4".
So a side shot would be 5 3/4".
Front shot would be 9.5".

The giant mass of muscle on a bears head is probably as hard to penetrate as the bone. Either way head shots are iffy because glancing hits might not penetrate well at all.

Considering Most soft nose 44's 45's ect well pentatrate 20 plus inchs. Heavey hard cast a lot more, they have enough power to make brain shots if the shooter is able to.

So Thebear_78 where to you recomend aiming when a bear is coming right at you.

Even with a rifle I am going to try for a brain shot that way if you are off even a bit there is chance to break the neck or shoulder. Or if you are unlucky one just might break its jaw so the bear doesn't chew you up as bad.(happen in a couple of cases)