Gents:
This is to inform you of an unfortunate circumstance that happened two hunting friends and myself whilst hunting caribou in the arctic. Last week I filed a complaint with both the BBB and the Attorney General's office in Alaska against 70 North Air Taxi out of Deadhorse and the owner, Mike McCrary.

In a nutshell, the contract we signed and were bound to states if she shoot excessive animals we will be charged $1500 for an "extra meat haul". We were given different bits of information: one was that we are allowed only one caribou each, that we could take up to 4 caribou, and that a 5th caribou was "iffy" if an extra haul would be needed. If an extra flight was needed, it is certainly understandable to pay for an extra flight.

To make this short, we were charged for the extra flight but it was not needed. We were within weight limits for our three scheduled return flights to camp but were charged for a 4th flight that was not taken. The owner will not reply to my emails (3 of them) so I filed with the proper authorities. I do not have a receipt for the $1500. Mike operates a "cash only" basis for his charter flights.

A prominent attorney looked at the contract and told me a company can't charge for a flight that was not taken. He will take my case for no charge if we go to court, but the AG and BBB are the first steps.

I should also mention here we and other hunters at Happy Valley were charged $2000 for the flight out and back for caribou. To my dismay I have spoken to other hunters who are charged a flat fee of $750 per hour for flight time. This equates to nearly 1/2 of our cost. Others were charged far less, too.

If any of you hunters have flown with 70 North and were charged for an extra flight feel free to contact me as you should have a refund coming if the flight was not actually taken.

We were taken back by the level of professionalism of the 70 North outfit. The camp manager told us humorous stories of two groups of university paleontologists battling with each other in camp (U of Chicago and UAF), of being told we were not welcome in the office for food or drink as the college groups were there and took precedence, and, of course, the mis information and outright dishonesty of the "extra meat haul" fee.

Personally, it was an embarrassment to bring a prominent physician and the CEO of a large international company with me and be treated like this.

This was the 4th year I have booked with 70 North and certainly be the last. I will look to other flight services in the area. There is no doubt my complaint will prevail but it is sad when a company puts a small profit ahead of integrity and honesty.

Cheers, mates.
Cal

That sucks anytime a business pulls shit like this. But if he operates only on a cash basis then why did you folks give him the extra money if you thought he wasn't being fair?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
That sucks anytime a business pulls shit like this. But if he operates only on a cash basis then why did you folks give him the extra money if you thought he wasn't being fair?

Snowwolfe:
Thanks for your comments. We thought it better to pay and discuss a refund or go to the proper authorities to file a complaint. If we did not pay and walked out of the office, the owner would have the option to report us to the Troopers to have us stopped on the 18-hour drive home. Doing the legal route is best. The owner not replying to my emails adds to our case. Also, internet searches have found many hunters who are pleased with the service but many pay different amounts.
I've read your posts often. Where in AK are you? I'm at mile 87 of the Parks.
Cheers,
Cal

Did live in Eagle River but moved out April 2013. Currently live in Colorado but within 2 years will be at our 42 acre spread in Tennessee.
I met you a few times at the Birchwood double rifle shoots. Even bought your 600 Nitro book from you

Cal, did you post this on the Alaska Outdoors Forum? It would get a lot of traction with respect to local/regional views, comments and what others may have experienced. You may not want to go that route and may not post there but it's a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Kambaku:
Cal, did you post this on the Alaska Outdoors Forum? It would get a lot of traction with respect to local/regional views, comments and what others may have experienced. You may not want to go that route and may not post there but it's a thought.

I am now registered with them but they don't allow any negative comments to be posted. I can, however, post the facts, not mention any names, and direct those interested to contact me for details. Thanks for the suggestion, and I will post there soon as well as on Nitro Express.
Cal

Gents:
Thanks for your feedback and here is an update on the situation.
Bob Gill, co-owner, offered a refund to me as long as I stopped the "hostilities" i.e. don't publicize the business practices of 70 North. I refused to compromise as right is right and a company can't charge for a flight that is not taken. Here is an interesting comparison for you folks who wish to hunt caribou and fly out of Happy Valley.

70 North $2000 per person, one caribou, $1500 per extra animal
additional notes: some are charged $1750 per person and some the plane is $750 per hour
Arrowhead $2600 per person, two caribou, wolf, grizzly, and change camp if needed
Full Curl $2500 per person, two caribou
Broooksflier $2500 per person, two caribou, wolf, grizzly, or wolverine


Here are some posts and emails from others regarding 70North. My comments follow.

Last year four of us flew with 70 north for dahl,grizzly, caribou and wolf. Cost was $1750 per person with 2 flights in in the Helio allowing 1200 lbs total.
The customer was very pleased with his service. Note his charge was $250 less than many pay.

We were extremely happy with 70 nNorth, they made and extra flight on the way out at no extra charge.
Some are charged an extra flight, some are not as with this customer. In my case I was charged for a flight not taken!

Before I booked with a transporter, I did quite a bit of research and found enough complaints about 70 North's business dealings that I looked elsewhere.
I, now, will agree with the business dealings.

Bob wrecked their 206 a couple weeks ago. They probably need your extra funds to cover costs of a new rig!
Actually, the crash was after my unjust fee.

Mike has a long and well earned reputation for shady dealings. He used to work for Branch River in King Salmon until Van fired him.
I will email and research and look into this.

I also think their pilot Bob pushes the weather and makes questionable decisions. Not someone I want to fly with.
I can't agree with this as I've flown a lot in 30 years here and feel Bob is a safe pilot.

To sum up, my complaint with the BBB and AG are both in process and both agencies have contacted 70 North. Prior to my filing, I made four attempts to contact Mike and all of my communications were ignored. We'll see what happens now and for those of you who wish to hunt the high arctic, you won't have a better experience once in the field. Just be very careful with whom you fly.

Here is a copy of my contract. Note at the bottom the "extra meat haul." This contract will now be amended for the next season and perhaps just a flat fee for more than one animal as it is obvious the charge to me was bogus and illegal.

Good luck, gents. I hope to see you double rifle men at the summer's shoot and feel free to stop by anytime.
Cal

the premises are dry? no sundowners?? forget it!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
the premises are dry? no sundowners?? forget it!

Jdollar:
While the contract states "dry" when I returned from my hunt the camp manager was drinking quite heavily. I guess it is only the clients who must remain sober, not the staff.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Kambaku:
Cal, did you post this on the Alaska Outdoors Forum? It would get a lot of traction with respect to local/regional views, comments and what others may have experienced. You may not want to go that route and may not post there but it's a thought.

I am now registered with them but they don't allow any negative comments to be posted. I can, however, post the facts, not mention any names, and direct those interested to contact me for details. Thanks for the suggestion, and I will post there soon as well as on Nitro Express.
Cal

A bit funny that, no allowing any negative comments!!

Glad you got that worked our Cal.

Definitely a company to avoid!

A charge for a flight that did NOT take place??

What next??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Kambaku:
Cal, did you post this on the Alaska Outdoors Forum? It would get a lot of traction with respect to local/regional views, comments and what others may have experienced. You may not want to go that route and may not post there but it's a thought.

I am now registered with them but they don't allow any negative comments to be posted. I can, however, post the facts, not mention any names, and direct those interested to contact me for details. Thanks for the suggestion, and I will post there soon as well as on Nitro Express.
Cal

A bit funny that, no allowing any negative comments!!

Glad you got that worked our Cal.

Definitely a company to avoid!

A charge for a flight that did NOT take place??

What next??

What's next, will be a charge for animals not taken.

I think there are some that believe this site should not allow any negative comments either . . . disagreement is equated with a lack of civility.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think there are some that believe this site should not allow any negative comments either . . . disagreement is equated with a lack of civility.

i welcome all comments....negative included ....all experiences are useful

Gents:
It is interesting the situation with Alaska Outdoor Forums. I posted the facts of my complaint and did not mention any names. My post was deleted for the following reasons:

Dear cal pappas,

You have received a warning at Alaska Outdoors Forums.

Reason:
-------
Flame rule violation

Your post was reported to me today, and I had a look at it. It is clear that you had an experience that you want to share with our readers, and are trying to do so without violating our rules. I certainly appreciate that. The pool of operators out of Happy Valley is very small and it would not take much to figure out who you are talking about. Additionally you mentioned that the situation has escalated to the level of the BBB and other entities. I would not be surprised to see it end up in litigation. Meanwhile, the operator cannot come here to defend themselves, without breaking our forum rules and turning this into a flame war. For those reasons we are going to delete the thread, with a recommendation that you restrict your commentary on the situation.

Other sites allow reviews of this type, but we have steered clear of it for several reasons. First, it often creates a lop-sided lobby for one side or the other, because one party cannot or will not participate in the dialogue. Second, it often turns into a flame war, which degrades the overall climate in our forums. And finally, there are always multiple sides to every story, and online postings of this kind rarely reveal the whole picture. Therefore they are of little positive value to our members.

I hope you will continue posting here, as I am sure you have many positive things to contribute to the community.

Best regards,

-Mike
-------

I gave serious thought as to the decorum of the forums. At times AR is a pain in the ass with all the pissing that goes on here (and I am guilty of it, too) but then I look at AK Outdoors and it is bland, all positive and cheery. While this is nice it taints the realities of certain situations, such as mine.
Truly, I have come to appreciate AR and the freedoms we have here and should thank Saeed for that. While Saeed and I have butted heads a times, I would rather that than he delete posts that differ from his viewpoints. There have been many negative hunt reports here that are helpful when looking for a hunt.
Also, AK Outdoors charges 5% or $50 (whichever is less) for items sold on the classifieds. I appreciate the free market on AR for buying and selling and have met many fine and honest folks here.
I will update my situation with 70 North. I believe they have ignored the BBB and AG as no word from them. I will stop by their offices next week whilst in town.
Cheers, mates.
Cal

One more point, fellas.
Remember a few years ago Eric Leeton was screwed by a shoddy gunsmith on a set of double rifle barrels? If it were not for the fine folks here Leeton would have lost but with the help and emails from those on AR he prevailed.
AR is really an outstanding forum!
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
It is interesting the situation with Alaska Outdoor Forums. I posted the facts of my complaint and did not mention any names. My post was deleted for the following reasons:

Dear cal pappas,

You have received a warning at Alaska Outdoors Forums.

Reason:
-------
Flame rule violation

Your post was reported to me today, and I had a look at it. It is clear that you had an experience that you want to share with our readers, and are trying to do so without violating our rules. I certainly appreciate that. The pool of operators out of Happy Valley is very small and it would not take much to figure out who you are talking about. Additionally you mentioned that the situation has escalated to the level of the BBB and other entities. I would not be surprised to see it end up in litigation. Meanwhile, the operator cannot come here to defend themselves, without breaking our forum rules and turning this into a flame war. For those reasons we are going to delete the thread, with a recommendation that you restrict your commentary on the situation.

Other sites allow reviews of this type, but we have steered clear of it for several reasons. First, it often creates a lop-sided lobby for one side or the other, because one party cannot or will not participate in the dialogue. Second, it often turns into a flame war, which degrades the overall climate in our forums. And finally, there are always multiple sides to every story, and online postings of this kind rarely reveal the whole picture. Therefore they are of little positive value to our members.

I hope you will continue posting here, as I am sure you have many positive things to contribute to the community.

Best regards,

-Mike
-------

I gave serious thought as to the decorum of the forums. At times AR is a pain in the ass with all the pissing that goes on here (and I am guilty of it, too) but then I look at AK Outdoors and it is bland, all positive and cheery. While this is nice it taints the realities of certain situations, such as mine.
Truly, I have come to appreciate AR and the freedoms we have here and should thank Saeed for that. While Saeed and I have butted heads a times, I would rather that than he delete posts that differ from his viewpoints. There have been many negative hunt reports here that are helpful when looking for a hunt.
Also, AK Outdoors charges 5% or $50 (whichever is less) for items sold on the classifieds. I appreciate the free market on AR for buying and selling and have met many fine and honest folks here.
I will update my situation with 70 North. I believe they have ignored the BBB and AG as no word from them. I will stop by their offices next week whilst in town.
Cheers, mates.
Cal

Cal,

Thank you for the kind words.

Sadly, your experience is reflected by a number of our members regarding dealing with other forums.

I find that very sad indeed, as my own feeling is the more good forums we have the better it is for our sport.

AR might actually be unique on the Internet.

In that it is totally non-commercial, and we get as little involvement in what goes between the members.

We assume that all members are adults, and can deal with each other without crossing very simple guidelines of decency.

Being in disagreement with other members should not be a reason to loose respect for that member.

We have disagreements with close family members and close friends all the time.

Saeed,

you just gave us a lesson of freedom and free speech that is rarely found in real life or internet.

thank you very much to keep it that way.

Phil

Here is the BBB update. 70 North will not reply to the BBB nor the Attorney General. I will visit the AG later this month.
Thanks for your support and for the openness of AR.
Cal

Thank you for taking the time to inform Better Business Bureau of your experience with 70 North, LLC. BBB has made several attempts to contact the business regarding your complaint, and we are disappointed to inform you we have not received a response. We are closing this complaint as unanswered.

So all someone has to do is not respond and the BBB closes the file ? The BBB seems kind of useless.

Shocking that a service provider acts like this.

Larry:
Thanks for your comment and you are correct. The BBB is not an enforcement agency. The cooperation they get is voluntary on the part of businesses as a legitimate business wants to be honest in dealing with the public. It is in their own interest to do so.
In the cast of the company that illegally charged me a fee for a flight they did not take, 70 North Air Taxi, if they make a choice not to respond, the BBB as no further authority. The BBB will make public note of this on their website and keep it there for three years.
I will visit with the Attorney General's office on my next trip to the city and get advice from them. To date, 70 North has not replied to their request for information but, as it was in informal request and not a legal action, 70 North has the right not to reply to the AG. If the AG determines to pursue 70 North, then it becomes a different matter.
I had my first four emails ignored but if and when I decide to sue in court 70 North will have to reply then.
To put this in perspective, my dealings with 70 North has always been positive. I've offered to bring up groceries, firewood and insulation when I make the 750-mile drive north to hunt. But, when it comes to money, some folks put the dollar ahead of integrity and honesty. Bottom line: Ione can't get more dishonest than that! Bob Gill and Mike McCrary have turned out to be men of very low class.
Cheers,
Cal

Cal:

Have you spoke to the police? Seems like taking money and not providing the service amounts to stealing.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Cal:

Have you spoke to the police? Seems like taking money and not providing the service amounts to stealing.

Exactly!

Yes, I have. In an initial statement it is my word vs theirs and the police can't get involved. I will stop by the AG's office and also meet with my attorney--both between Christmas and New Year's Day and (as they say in Zim) make a plan.

The more I work on this the more I (again) commend Saeed for keeping AR an open forum.

You folks my remember Eric Leeton and his tribulations with a POS gunsmith in Maine? It was AR members who took up the side of right and pressured the situation to a successful closing.
Cheers, all.
Cal

Gents:
Thanks for your emails and a few calls.
70 North will not respond to the BBB nor the Attorney General's office. The AG sent a followup letter a few weeks go demanding a reply within 10 days. No word so far.

The day after Christmas I met with an attorney in Anchroage over lunch. I know him from the shooting and hunting folks in Alaska. He has the best name recognition of any attorney in the state and he gave me some great advise and steps to follow. He is looking up Alaska statutes to help me and on Tuesday I will stop at the courthouse and get paperwork to file suit after the AG's office is done. The attorney will assist me in wording the complaint so it is complete and legally professional.
Thanks for your support and interest.
Cal

Cal,

The BBB is both toothless and worthless.

I hope you have better luck with the AG.

What struck me as interesting is that he is "cash only" maybe he is not paying all his taxes?

How about a complaint to the IRS and State tax folks?

We're those planes safe? Did he follow all safety of flight rules? Has he has a visit from any folks over at the FAA?

Yes, the folks over in the Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) are always looking for someone to "help".

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
Cal,

The BBB is both toothless and worthless.

I hope you have better luck with the AG.

What struck me as interesting is that he is "cash only" maybe he is not paying all his taxes?

How about a complaint to the IRS and State tax folks?

We're those planes safe? Did he follow all safety of flight rules? Has he has a visit from any folks over at the FAA?

Hasher:
Thanks for your input.
I did file with the IRS and forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder and I will make a call Monday to followup. There is no AK income tax.
I understand the pilot crashed his 206 a few months ago.
Cheers,
Cal

Alaska forums is owned by Michael strahan and he is hunt planner. Ie he plans your entire hunt for you. So he is tied into a bunch of folks if I remember right when 70north started up he was one of their big supporters he pushed a lot of folks his way. 70 north used to be one the cheaper outfits charge you buy weight not by per person. A lot of folks on Alaska forums are migrating over to other sites.

quote:

Originally posted by 323:
Alaska forums is owned by Michael strahan and he is hunt planner. Ie he plans your entire hunt for you. So he is tied into a bunch of folks if I remember right when 70north started up he was one of their big supporters he pushed a lot of folks his way. 70 north used to be one the cheaper outfits charge you buy weight not by per person. A lot of folks on Alaska forums are migrating over to other sites.

This is the reason for no negative postings on the AK Outdoors Forum? They would lose add revenue?
Cal

Yes that's why he can't afford to have folks bad mouthing outfitters/transporters he has ran that site into the ground. I would post this over on 24hour as well...

quote:

Originally posted by 323:
Yes that's why he can't afford to have folks bad mouthing outfitters/transporters he has ran that site into the ground. I would post this over on 24hour as well...

What is 24 hour?
Excuse my ignorance.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by 323:
Yes that's why he can't afford to have folks bad mouthing outfitters/transporters he has ran that site into the ground. I would post this over on 24hour as well...

What is 24 hour?
Excuse my ignorance.
Cal

Say what?? 24hourcampfire is hunting forum I like the site has a great classified section too... Most of them on Alaska sub forum do not care for Alaska forums due to their heavy handed moderators

323:
Thank you.
I learn something every day. I've never heard of 24 hour prior and I will check out the site.
I appreciate it.
Cal

Sorry for your troubles, CP. Suggestion: next time, get a receipt with the particulars, with a date and signature and words to the effect of, 'funds paid in advance for future services to be rendered; to be refunded in full should said services not be required or provided', with details.

Kamo:
Good advise and with a new outfitter this would have been done, but I thought this group was square as it was year 4 for flying with them.

An update: 70 North's Bob Gill and Mike McCary have ignored me, the BBB and now the AG's office. Upon receipt of a final letter from the AG's office I will file suit in small claims court. An attorney if assisting me in the forms and prior case law. I will keep you informed. I want to thank you for you for the many PMs and emails. I hope you don't get taken by this pair.
Cheers, mates,
Cal

Gentlemen:
The matter of my flight with 70 North Air Taxi has been resolved to my 100% satisfaction. I will make no further posts on the issue.
Thank you all.
Cal

great for you Cal and thank you to kept us informed.

Phil

Congratulations on resolving your issues with them. Is it safe to guess that they paid you what they owed you in return for your not saying anything more about them?

Gentlemen:
The matter of my flight with 70 North Air Taxi has been resolved to my 100% satisfaction. I will make no further posts on the issue.

Hello Cal. I have been reading this post for some time now. I was impressed by your fighting spirit to make things right. I felt that you only wanted to right the wrong that had been and from your posts you were "our knight in shiny armour" to see justice prevail.
Was it merely dollars that silenced this post?
Cheers Malcolm

quote:

Originally posted by malcolm:
Gentlemen:
The matter of my flight with 70 North Air Taxi has been resolved to my 100% satisfaction. I will make no further posts on the issue.

Hello Cal. I have been reading this post for some time now. I was impressed by your fighting spirit to make things right. I felt that you only wanted to right the wrong that had been and from your posts you were "our knight in shiny armour" to see justice prevail.
Was it merely dollars that silenced this post?
Cheers Malcolm

Malcom,

i do not know in Australia but when a settlement is done you better not said a word money or not involved for that matter its the same in Yukon and Alaska.

Cal shown and explained his story. his fight was interesting the end better and if he is happy that is even better.

all the best.

Phil