Howdy All,

New member here and really like the Africa advice portion of this site. I intend to use it on my next outfitted trip.........when I can get the stomach back in me, which will take some time.

Saved hard and went on my first ever outfitted/guided hunt for brown bear on Chicagof Island this May. I'm a hugely successful 48 year old western hunter for self guided/DIY trophy big muleys, elk, and pronghorns from New Mexico to Wyoming. I've got a bunch of 'em......all by my lonesome. Plus I'm tough enough to camp, scout, and hunt on my own. Plus.......I'm a businessman who understands something about customer service and the fact that 'the customer is always right'. Evidently, these things do not mean much in SE Alaska.

So.....with a great deal of apprehension.........I booked one of my bucket list trips for grizzz where every non-resident hunter in Alaska and Canada must hire an outfitter. I went thru what I thought was a credible western hunting booking agent........but who has since chosen to make me the bad guy in this deal. I'm fairly well pissed.

Turns out the outfitter/guide is a part-time outfitter.........and full-time government worker. No kidding. Who in their right mind would pay money and trust a 58-year old life-long government regulatory worker.......who is on his vacation? A lifelong regulatory government bureaucrat only knows how to beat on people and make them do everything his own way. A lifelong regulatory government worker does not even know the meaning of 'customer service'.

My question to you all.....is........are the following trip events normal or out-of-the-norm for someone on this type of trip? Am I wrong to expect better treatment than this? I've heard MANY stories and opinions about loser Alaska and Canada outfitters/guides. How does this one compare? Shall I expect this in the future?

1. The first day of transport into camp the outfitter's partner was there. The outfitter/guide and his partner were there for a whole day before, yet they didn't put the Zodiac raft together. The guide waited til the second day when I could help him hoist the heavy raft/motor/rock anchor to get it done. Why didn't his Juneau partner help him do this when the two of them were there for a whole day before I flew in? Why would he ask a paying customer to do this when they could have handled it beforehand?

2. Couldn't tell the bossy SOB "no". Couldn't even hint it. This discussion became livelier after the kill when I wouldn't put up with his stuff anymore. He was in charge period...........even after this paying customer let him have $12k. The bossy SOB would even shovel more food onto my plate after I told him 'that's enough'.....just cuz I told him 'enough' and 'no'.

3. I listened to three days of him putting down every guide and human being who'd ever shot a 'lowly 7.5-foot bear'. 2 days later.........he guides me to one telling me it's an 8'+ boar. No kidding. I'll never forget him feeling around underneath it trying to find a pecker. His shitty attitude toward me worsened after this mis-called kill......which was his mistake in living color.

4. The day after kill.......he goads me into cleaning the skull while he is working on the cape. He says "Hey....if your looking for something to do........" a couple of different times. I paid him $12k for game/trophy care to be on him. Why in the world is he pushing his laziness on me?

5. I paid for a float plane trip out as part of his fee. On day 6 of a ten day hunt, he suggests I go out early on the nearby ferry instead. After I reluctantly agree....without asking for a refund of my float plane fee.........he indicates that he will also pull the camp with my departure. Instead of calling his partner and floatplane in.........he now expects me to help him haul the heavy camp gear into the zodiac and then up the ferry landing. While apparently not lugging his camp gear hard enough........he screams at me to "GET THIS LANDING CLEARED OFF NOW". I screamed back telling him STFU and would have knocked his teeth out had he been in reach. He spends the next 4 hours hiding in back of the ferryboat afraid I'm gonna kick his ass.

I put up with a bunch of crap early in this hunt in order to keep peace in a camp with just the two of us. Damn if I'm ever gonna do this again. The positive in this is.........AT LEAST HE SAVED ME THE COST OF A TIP!

I read a thread a while back titled 'Client Resentment' on this or maybe another forum. The gist of that thread is a trip where the guide is pissy and doesn't wanna be there and doesn't wanna serve you. The guide seems to blame you for his unhappiness and his unwilling presence there. Everything is your fault as the customer.............YOU are the reason for his unhappiness. One of the reasons I booked this hunt was that he is a small outfit and serves as the guide himself instead of pawning you off on a derelict guide he hired the week before. No kidding.

So.....what are your thoughts? Just what does a booking agent offer a customer and what is their value??

The hardest places to get a good outfitted hunt are Alaska and to some degree Canada.

I have had several passable hunts in Alaska and Canada. If you don't expect much, it is a lot easier to go away satisfied. Love the fried hotdogs, oatmeal and peanut butter and jelly.

Sounds like you killed a bear, a lot of people pay to go on bear hunts and don't kill a bear.

At least you had that.

Hard to really know how to reply .

You mention that you consider yourself a pretty capable fellow and then resent being asked to be capable.

I appreciate that you didn't mention the guides name and that speaks to your character. My guess is that you weren't clear with the booking agent regarding your expectations and he put you with a guide that didn't meet them.

I believe that in Alaska as well as anywhere else you can expect any kind of service you like as long as you make your requirements clear in advance. Here in Dillingham we've got all flavors of customer service from "Grunt,......whadda you wan'?" To "Sir, it will be a pleasure to serve you!"

My booking agent is a personal friend and so he knows what I'd prefer without my telling him in triplicate. He's been able to pair me with guides that I connect with and so I've been able to have very enjoyable hunts.

Sorry you had a frusterating trip.

quote:

You mention that you consider yourself a pretty capable fellow and then resent being asked to be capable.

This is exactly the part that I'm asking about.

Capable......which I did make very clear beforehand.........DOES NOT include packing camp gear like a paid campjack and loading boats and unloading exit camp gear and packing it up the stairs and into the ferryboat hull.

Capable means that I can sleep on accommodated cot/pad/pillow. Capable means that I am not picky about food and drink. Capable means that I can spot, locate and stalk and whack my own animal without a bunch of instructions from the guide treating me like I am a dude client.

Capable does not 'to a sane persons mind' mean that I will set up and pack out the whole camp after paying $12k so that I do not have to do so. I paid this prick to carry my gear..........not for me to carry his.

Chris
I have had what you call great outfitters to the worst in Alaska.
In very case I pitched in to work from setting up tents ,cutting wood, cooking,and equipment repair. I have sat in camp for 6 days on a sheep hunt looking for something to do when we could not fly out.
I think you got a bargain on the total cost of the bear hunt, I believe most are 3 to 5 thousand more.
Next he did what you paid for you harvested a brown bear that beats the odds most are not that lucky.
Last almost all Alaska guides are part timers they all have other jobs you cannot make a living on a couple hunts a year in Alaska. So I would not hold that against the guy.
If you check into it most of the guides in Alaska are not residents of Alaska they almost all live in the lower 48.
Just remember logistics in Alaska are far from easy to pull off with out a hitch. Everyone needs to help and carry some of the whole burden.
Most of all you scored a bear. Remember as you know now Hunting Alaska may not be for the weak at heart.
Larry

I guess I don't get the emphasis on helping being a problem. I also would have resented the boat not being ready, but more for missing hunting time than manual effort.

You also make the point that you were disappointed in the trophy in spite of: "Capable means that I can spot, locate and stalk and whack my own animal without a bunch of instructions from the guide treating me like I am a dude client."

So I am getting mixed messages from you. Maybe the guide did, too.

If you agreed to the early out, then you shouldn't bitch about it now.

I am sorry you had a bad hunt, but there are some people who are so used to being THE BOSS that they have trouble in a situation where the alpha position needs to switch back and forth. My read on the situation is that you might be in that boat.

My second spring black bear hunt went similar to your hunt, maybe even worse. The way I look at it, I chose the outfitter and did not make a good job of it.

All things considered, I would have to agree with your description of all the events for 6 days, but I also feel that you did not do your home work on both the outfitter and agent. I believe that you based what the agent told you on your own experience and how things should have been done. As to the guide, his job was to SERVICE the client and your only out was --no tip--after the hunt.

The bottom line is this...I have been on five figure hunts that were discounted 50% of more and was STILL treated better than that. You paid close to full fare and got treated poorly. It is one thing to happily pitch in around camp when paying big bucks, but quite another to have it expected of you because the outfitters can't get his act together. I would also not have agreed to leave early under any circumstances..but especially after paying for a charter.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Darnell:

quote:

You mention that you consider yourself a pretty capable fellow and then resent being asked to be capable.

This is exactly the part that I'm asking about.

Capable......which I did make very clear beforehand.........DOES NOT include packing camp gear like a paid campjack and loading boats and unloading exit camp gear and packing it up the stairs and into the ferryboat hull.

Capable means that I can sleep on accommodated cot/pad/pillow. Capable means that I am not picky about food and drink. Capable means that I can spot, locate and stalk and whack my own animal without a bunch of instructions from the guide treating me like I am a dude client.

Capable does not 'to a sane persons mind' mean that I will set up and pack out the whole camp after paying $12k so that I do not have to do so. I paid this prick to carry my gear..........not for me to carry his.

If the guide were on here asking our opinion I'd say without reservation that he didn't do his job. The customer is always right and its the proprietors job to either meet the customers needs or not to do business with the customer.

Like I said earlier, even here in Dillingham we've got all measures of service. No I do not believe your experience is standard.

There is always going to be the good the bad and the ugly and that goes both ways, guide and client. Once you start butting heads, call it personality conflict, whatever, a lot of drama can spoil a hunt in a heartbeat. At least now you can appreciate the good ones you've had.

Not sure I would set up a Zodiak (bear chew toy) before hand, in bear country.

lesee - you're complaining because you had to do a bit of work to set up camp, had to much food, killed a bear and had to pay to leave camp early.

Never seen a bear chew on one. Watched a couple play "trampoline" with their front paws. Got close to DLP'ing one while it was doing this to MY Avon. I had a backup kayak on shore. Never did get the 15, or so, claw holes air tight again.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Darnell:
I'm a hugely successful 48 year old western hunter for self guided/DIY trophy big muleys, elk, and pronghorns from New Mexico to Wyoming. I've got a bunch of 'em......all by my lonesome. Plus I'm tough enough to camp, scout, and hunt on my own. Plus.......I'm a businessman who understands something about customer service and the fact that 'the customer is always right'. Evidently, these things do not mean much in SE Alaska.

Tells me a bit about your modesty and attitude going into the situation. Not sayin' the Guide acted appropriately in any way shape or form. I sure hope you tipped him accordingly. (that'd be a BIG FAT ZERO)

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
lesee - you're complaining because you had to do a bit of work to set up camp, had to much food, killed a bear and had to pay to leave camp early.

I remember seeing the video of Mark Watts with Chifuti Safaris and thinking the same thing.

Watt's spends most of the DVD talking about how much conflict there was between him and Dawson. Then shoots a huge black maned lion and a nice buffalo.

Not every man on this planet agrees with every other man, I had problems on my first safari. It happens.

It's been 7 years since that safari, but I remember it as seeing and shooting a great swath of Namibia plains game. The bullshit between me, the outfitter, the ph, and another client in camp is all over.

Any time I can hunt alone that's what I do. It's not always possible or even legal, but when it is, it's amazing how the level of bullshit you have to deal with drops to nothing.

A friend of mine refuses to hunt with his wife, as she is ultra-competative and nuts about everything.

Alone is very good!

I like to hunt with my brothers, or alone. Have not found another hunting buddy in CO, yet -- Ed got ALS and can't even twitch anymore. Three years ago he was hauling elk quarters. I miss him.

Dang you guys are great and terrific with your honesty. I can live with all of it. I need to know yer opinions and observations and thoughts........that's what I asked for don't hold back. Seems like I should hang around here for a while. I am definitely going to Africa, BTW.

Okay, in spite of what I said here..........overall it was a neat trip with many worthwhile life experiences in viewing countryside and animules including Sitka deer, sea otters, orcas and humpback whales, minks, porpoises, seals, sea lions, and of course..........grizzzzz........a few up really close up and they are world-record georgeous with long, chocolaty brown hair and no rubs and curious behaviors. Just don't expect my praise of the high-paid humanoid factor in this trip, okay?

Got some neat pics to post up here......soon as I can figure out how.

Also.....if I can figure out how.......I'll post up lots of big bucks and bulls from the Rocky Mtns on this forum.

Great! Welcome to the forum btw I've been peeved with outfitters before too, but that faded away and only the good memories remain.

I think you'll like it here on AR.

Like I tell my boss: "If you don't want to hear my opinion - don't ask for it."

I would echo the post by tendrams. You were treated poorly and deserved better service. You should expect more, and there are many good operators, even in Alaska. Keep doing your homework, ask plenty of questions, and you will have many more good hunts then bad. Not all good, unfortunately, but many, many more good than bad.
Bill

Piss poor. Next time--ask for references and not just 1 or 2, and contact them all with in-depth questions (including "Are you a relative of the guide?).

Sounds like a clear cut case of differing expectations (on both the guide and the client) and a lack of communication before hand to resolve potential conflicts.

Did your booking agent go on this hunt before booking you on it? I ask because I've never been on a guided hunt and I'm planning a trip to Africa. To me, it seems like the booking agent should have been able to describe the conditions on the hunt clearly to you so that you wouldn't get blind-sided by the guide's expectations of assistance.

I'm glad you posted because it reminds me that I have to ask a lot more questions about a guided hunt before booking.

Here are a couple to see if this is working.

And some more.....

The guided hunts I have been on I always try and help I almost had to force the guide to let me help.

well it sounds like you and the guide were a match made in heaven, most clients love being involved in taking care of at least there bear skull and the whole experience, even moving gear around or packing camp, its part of the hunt. Your the first i've ever seen complain about it.

If just eating/sleeping/shooting is what you were expecting it sounds like africa is right up your alley.

On the same token, sounds like the guide was workin' an angle to shaft you as well. would be neat to hear his take on the situation, often times a clients expectations clash with reality and blows things outa proportion, and often times a guide got his money and has some other agenda and talked you into droppin' a smaller bear so he could get off work early....
hence the match made in heaven comment.

I haven't told the entire story about my aggravations. I just hit a few of them, and not necessarily the biggest of them. And by the way....I was the person there.......not any of you guys. This will be my last post on this topic since I refuse to spend more of my time and mental energy discussing this bipolar (maybe the whole problem) plick and his greedy selfish booking agent. Here are a few of my final thoughts for those of you that have inquired about such things.

1. Always hire and pay for the charter flight yourself. Do not let the outfitter include this in his fee. This way, you can control it your way. I was told by the outfitter to limit my gear weight to 50 lbs for the floatplane. I had wanted to bring my 15x Leica bino/tripod to get a better look at critters, as well as a larger assortment of clothes, but ended up bringing bare bones including counting ounces of toothpaste. The flight in turned out to be waaaaay underloaded anyway, with plenty of capacity. And of course......no surprise here with an outfitter who always chooses himself over his customers.........the guide himself had more clothes and personal gear in his camp than I have in my house.

2. If a substitution is offered you during the hunt that saves the outfitter money.......always demand a rebate of the cost difference right then and there before agreeing.

3. This guide got totally rude, bossy and ignorant with me in a phone call after I paid him the hunt deposit and before the trip (many months before). Don't be afraid to pull the plug and demand a deposit refund before the trip. When it comes to rudeness and poor customer service attitudes........where there's smoke there's fire.

4. Book with a full-time outfitter only. This would be a person who has to make his living in this world by word of mouth reputation and satisfactory customer service. This means a person who has to actually acknowledge that he has a paying customer that he needs to take care of. A part-timer can piss on his customers year after year and simply return to his regular job that pays his bills.....particularly a government job that he knows will always be there.

5. Booking agents are of no value in an outfitted hunt. They will hook you up with any outfitter simply to get a fee.....particularly in this economy. If you choose to utilize one........do not expect any accountability from one if things go awry.

6. For you guides/outfitters reading this........a tip is earned and is not a given. Man up and treat your paying customer like you would want to be treated if you expect a tip, okay?

7. Judge your own animal before you pull the trigger. Never depend on the guide to do this. Never, ever.

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
Never seen a bear chew on one. Watched a couple play "trampoline" with their front paws. Got close to DLP'ing one while it was doing this to MY Avon. I had a backup kayak on shore. Never did get the 15, or so, claw holes air tight again.

Found the pic of my raft after applying 15+ patches on it. Never did hole air again. Ended up having to get a new one.

Interesting, I have a pic of the same Ward Air plane down at our cabin froma few years back.



Ward is one of the few outfits I trust my life to. Air Excursions just dumped a plane a few weeks back. 300' ceiling and the pilot continued on into the abyss plowing into a mountain at the 800 foot level. That's my boat in the background.

Boy I sure know one "Hugely successful 48 year old western hunter" and one fly by night alaskan outfitter (never heard of one of them before), that I don't want to hunt with, ever.

Thanks for posting

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Boy I sure know one "Hugely successful 48 year old western hunter" and one fly by night alaskan outfitter (never heard of one of them before), that I don't want to hunt with, ever.

Thanks for posting

+1

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Boy I sure know one "Hugely successful 48 year old western hunter" and one fly by night alaskan outfitter (never heard of one of them before), that I don't want to hunt with, ever.

Thanks for posting

Chris, way to start off on the AR forum but coming on here to bitch, whine and moan. You shoot a great bear but the trip was 100% not as planned and you complain.

You are quite arrogant about your accomplishments as a DIY and this post acts like you are even better than everyone else because of that.

Quit whining and do your research. We have all been on bad hunts. It is just part of the deal; unfortunately.

Come off your ego high and quit whining and asking for sympathy. Analyze the situation and make sure you learn from it.

1. I definitely don't agree with you on the charter. So this flight was under weight. I have been on several where we left stuff behind becuase we weighed to much.

2. Not sure what you are referring to but it is not going to happen. Stuff happens, things change. Having this attitude is a time bomb for you and the outfitter.

3. Good luck getting your deposit back because of arrogance and ignorance on your part. If I was the outfitter I would gladly give it back and run away from you as fast as possible.

4. My PH in Africa last year is a PH and several other things to pay the bills. The guy is totally amazing.

5. You are way wrong. I know some great guys like Aaron Nielsen and he will always hold up his part of the bargain.

6. Does not even deserve a comment.

7. 100% disagree with you. I can judge mule deer and elk, antelope but making the call on a brown bear that I have never hunted, Kudu, etc would most likely be a disaster. I am paying them for their knowledge. Do mistakes happen, absolutely, but I want their opinion. You pulled the trigger, not your guide.

From what you have written in this post I think it would be best if you go back to being "a hugely successful 48 year old western hunter" and continue to stroke your ego on your own and not post on the web how good you are.

What Littlejoe said, only he said it better than me. The only thing I don't like are "once and a while" "guides" from the Lower-48. I think ALL registered guides should be Ak. residents.
Bear in Fairbanks

Thanks (all you Alaskans) for the education on bear chew toys. Even our bears down here love to bite plastic gas cans, quart oil bottles etc. So I should not be surprised.

I had a black bear track me to my campsite one night. I was huffing and puffing and stumbling in the dark and he probably thought I was gonna drop dead any second. I dropped my pack and went 75 yards to fill a water bottle. When I came back literally a minute later he ran away from my pack. At first I thought he hadn't done any damage, but he'd bitten a hole in EVERYTHING in the pack except my binocs - they were just scarred.

It's sickening to hear you had to deal with this. All I can say is people like that should never be able to guide again! I know if if somebody paid me 12k for a hunt I'd be outside washing his socks by hand and spoon feeding him dinner. The customer service industry has gone down the crapper lately and laziness has become an epidemic.

It sounds like you are bitching. I for one would feel like I would have to help out with the skull, hide, ect. I think that the best part of the hunt is the pack out and taking care of meat or in your case the hide. I went out with a friend of mine this year and they shot three bears. I ended up skining them all and taking the head and paws out for them. I also got to pay for my part of the gas. It was a great hunt. I feel it is my job as the youngest guy on the boat (35yo). As far as your goverment employ comment go fuck yourself. I have been one for 16 years "in the military" I have worked with and for a bunch of great guys in my career.