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One of Us |
hi well it is known that 12 gauge pumps in 12 gauge are used for bear defense what about 20 gauge mag with one ounce brenneke slugs? one ounce slug in 20 gauge has better SD than one ounce slug in 12 gauge and 0.600 inch+ diameter is enough large too!! Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | ||
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| One of Us |
well lesee - there is a bear which weighs about 800-100-#'s with a bad attitude and pissed off at the world. He figures its all your fault and he's 30 feet away. wich would you rather have, sectional density or a howitizer | |||
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One of Us |
Considering the 12 Ga is a 73 cal and there are 600-1500 plus grain slugs available for it and a heavier 12 ga sluge has a higher SD than the lighter 20 ga sluge AND the 12 ga has an 18% advantage as far as size is concerner...YOU take the 20 ga and I'LL take my 12 GaFH and be ready to console your widow. Not to flame or diss anyone but that question doesn't make much sense OR logic to me....you ever stand next to a stuffed brown, white or griz bear????? I want something a WHOLE LOT BIGGER than a 20 ga even for blackies. You can use whatever you want. LUCK | |||
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| one of us |
I have used the 1 ounce Remington Buckhammers an many feral hogs and would easily say it will take any Black bear alive. They have a flat nose and penetrate extremely well. Hogs do not like em. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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I load OO Buckshot for my 1st and 2d shots, much better chance of hitting & slowing down a charging bear, then finish with a slug Jim fur, feathers, & meat in the freezer  "Pass it on to your kids" | |||
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| One of Us |
Probably better than a sharp stick! | |||
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| One of Us |
I might take the 20 if it was a pump and had a magazine extension. hehe.. Although it's bit of a different topic,after taking numerous caribou sized critters I can say that sabots have pretty pitiful penetration, the federal barnes stuff in particular, on these such game anyway. | |||
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i was visiting the museum of Andre expedition to the north pole and there were some of guns they had used during their expedition most of them were single shot! 20 gauge and naturally black powder and the gentlemen and his fellow did hunted and killed loads of polar bear with these guns.  and none were killed or injured by bears, but they died probably from bear meat containg TRICHINA  then please do not understimate shotguns Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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One of Us |
The problem isn't whether or not the 20ga is effective, its what we in Alaska have on hand for bear defense. Generally I believe the outdoorsmen in Alaska hunt big game more than we do small game. That means we'd generally be inclined to own and use more big game rifles than small rifles or shotguns. That means we're more familiar with and would be more likely to grab and use the .338 or .375 or the .458. Handguns are wildly popular to carry up here but I'd be willing to bet more bears are DLP'd with a rifle than any other firearm. | |||
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As I told a friend when he went to the gun store and came back with a 9mm pistol, "If I wanted to piss someone off, I'd just insult them."  Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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20 gauge would be fine. But why would you when the difference cost you your life. The bigger is better thing will always trump "good enough" when there are big bears around. A funny story...When I was in middle school we got a new vice principal straight from Alaska. He turned out to be a hunter, and my dad offered to take him deer hunting. We had a killer hunting rig at the time, and old 4wd ford van, that was a retired school "bus". Yellow and black. There were bench seats and, just like on the ones I rode to school, I always ended up in the back. I listened to the big folks talk and Denny, the VP, told a story that's stuck with me. He said he had decided to go bear hunting with his 340wyb. He was gonna fly in and before getting on the plane his guide came up and introduced himself and noticed Denny was wearing a handgun. The guide says" You mind if I see that?" Denny pulls it out, a nice 45, probably a 1911 though I wouldn't know. He noticed the nice pearl grips as he looked it over. He (the guide) yells out to those around and asks if anyone had a hacksaw. Denny is thinking WTF? and asks the guide what he is up to. He tells Denny, "You see, I think we oughta cut off the handle off this thing." and the guide seems serious about finding a saw. "Wait a minute, just hold up there!" Denny says, and the guide replies " I'm trying to help you out! You see, If we cut off the handle it will hurt a lot less when the bear shoves it up your ass!!!" | |||
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| One of Us |
if a 20 ga can get the same velocity 1600 + with 1 oz which is what 435 gr it should work about same but i bet its more like 1200fps in any case probably as good as a 44mag If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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| one of us |
For bear protection I would prefer the 20ga Brenneke Slug to any 12GA Buckshot... The wife and I have hunted Mountain Grouse with 12 ga and 20 ga shotguns, depending on the year, in black and griz bear country. We both carried 44 Mag handguns for protection as well as Brennekke slugs for the shotguns. A Marlin in 45/70 or 450 Marlin is not a bad choice... We have had several close encounters with the Griz, but have not had to shoot one yet in self defense. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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| One of Us |
the reason i mentioned 20 gauge is a test i made for a few years ago on rifled slugs. the 1 ounce foster slugs all made a massive, but shallow wound canal in the test media( i tried both soaked and dry papper + a wooden board in front of it)and brenneke went nearly twice as deep in both 12 and 20 gauge and wound canal was impressive too in both calibers. the brenneke slugs were barely deformed and average more than 90% weight and foster slugs were flattened like big coins and some of them was broken in many pieces!! i havent chrono the slugs , but i trust companies about their ballistic information. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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I wouldn't. | |||
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| One of Us |
sure, but if only velocity could kill, then 220 swift was the best choice for bear defens!! the bullet's preformance and weight and frontal seize have more to do with killing than only velocity itself.generally german made ammo like brenneke or RWS products have shown very close to published ballistic figures and so do the ammos from federal or hornady which i have chronied too. anyway even 100-200 fps less velocity dose not make a lot of change in killing power of a cartridge!Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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| One of Us |
My assumption was Yes was talking about a shotgun carried strictly for bear protection, like when you are fishing or hiking. The reason some of us like OO Buck first -- this a typical Alasksan bear defense gun Mossberg Jim fur, feathers, & meat in the freezer "Pass it on to your kids" | |||
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| One of Us |
At close range I suppose it doesn't matter all that much, I just don't understand why anyone would consider a 20 when we all know that a 12 is more powerful, and when it comes to big bears, power is good. Where are I live in Japan there are big nasty bears that kill hunters every year, two last year and three hikers so far this spring. The line between "good enough" and becoming bear fat is pretty thin, at least I think anyway. | |||
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| One of Us |
dear hokkaido it is not about choosing 20 gauge before 12 gauge for bear deffens!sure 12 gauge with heaviest slugs are better for bears. it is about preformance of slugs in 20 gauge, like you are hunting birds with a 20 gauge shotgun and meet a bear in the wood and 20 gauge is all you have to make the bear second best in the battle! sorry about bear incidents in japan, it has happened in sweden too in recent years and a couple of hunters has lost their lives and some has been mauled too Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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Yes.. OK then, I guess I don't really know what this thread is about, sectional density perhaps? Your tests show that the brenekkes are good slugs. This bear was shot with a 30-06 and a 300 win. Then he killed two people. My friend eventually downed him with a buckhammer, 12ga I might add.  | |||
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| one of us |
It wouldn't be my frist choice but it sure would be not having a gun at all. chuck375 I guy once told me something like that about a 3inch pocket knife I carried I told him I guess so as long as you don't mind a bunch of holes in your lungs. Hokkaido doesn't prove shotguns are better then rifles where were the shots placed ect. | |||
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not exactly the question is about comparing two different gauges. the 12 with one ounce slug is recommanded in many sites for bear deffence and not 20 gauge and a 20 gauge with same weight and velocity generate the same amount of energy. the question was why 20 gauge has not been recommanded. anyway a bear don't die imidiately(stopped)unless brain or CNS is hitted and if so even a 22 hornet can do the job !!! i know the story of a guy who had killed a huge bear during bird hunting with a single shot from 222 rem from his combo 12/222 rem in the head and story of another guy which was badely mauled by bear dispite he had hit the bear right in the chest with 12g and brenneke slug . he was saved by a hunting mate comming to his rescue with his 6,5x55 and finished the bear . shot placement and propper bullet or slug type is very important and you mentioned buckhammer this kind of slug is a great improvement over foster type slugs and much better design too. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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| One of Us |
Sorry for being so bland, the bear was shot in an open field at aprx 200meters with a 30-06 BAR and ran off into cover. There were three people in the truck, two went after and one stayed to keep CB contact as the two hunters had handhelds. They found blood and went in. The bear went straight awhile, crested a hill and the blood stopped. They radioed back that they decided to high tail back to the truck. They came back over the hill and the bear rises up, it had circled around on them, probably trying in an attempt to hunt the hunters. The other hunter shoots the bear in the chest with a sako300win. The bear comes down on him, bites his head and rips his face off. The other hunter then runs, the bear takes off after him, catches him and mauls him or whatever, and hovers over him, chewing him up. The faceless fellow is still alive and radios to the guy in the truck who calls my friend who is on the neighboring farm. He shows up with his shotgun and goes in alone, finds one guy and tries to pick up the pieces of his face but later dies in the hospital. He keeps looking, finds the bear alive and well in a small creek. He shoots him, one shot 20M to the base of the neck. He keeps looking for the other hunter and other people show up to do the same. Turns out he was under the bear, gun still fully loaded, finger on trigger, safety on. So it's not that shotguns are better, just that is what killed this bear. But then again,I thought we all knew shotguns are preferred in close range situations. Maybe it's different in wis. | |||
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| One of Us |
To many variables to say what gun is better than the other. same for caliber or chambering. Carry what you want. its your ass you have to keep alive. a .22 is better than a fist. I dont even own a shotgun, I havent turned up in bear shit yet. A lesson in irony The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing this year the greatest amount of free Meals and Food Stamps ever, to 46 million people. Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us... "Please Do Not Feed the Animals." Their stated reason for the policy is because "The animals will grow dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves." Thus ends today's lesson in irony. | |||
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| one of us |
Sounds to me like poor shot placement for the frist shot. Once they get thier dander up lots of citters are hard to put down. A good soild chest shot that takes both lungs and or some of the heart well kill any thing walking in short order. They are not normlly DRT but can go a ways most of the time not past a 100 yards or so they are dead put don't know it. Any DG that still has enought life to cover a 100yards can do you a lot of damage. Even more so it wounded and is very mad. last night I had a 460gr 458 dia bullet setting next to a 437gr 12ga slug for having to put something big down I'll take the longer tougher bullet any day. | |||
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| One of Us |
"REMINGTON 870; LARGE CALIBER Slugs/Bullets(.730 /.727) PUMP ACTION w/RIFLED BARREL ", using modern day " ** HARD CAST ** BULLETS " ..  Dixie Terminator: Hard Cast " BULLET "; .730 dia. ; 730 grain ; 1200 fps Dixie Tusker: Hard Cast " BULLET "; .727 dia. ; 600 grain ; 1550 fps The last " Slug " is a Winchester 2 3/4 1 oz. Just my two cents, " Old thread info ". http://forums.accuratereloadin...1043/m/805100598/p/2 p.s.: Those " Muzzleloaders " don't seem to have any problems taking on " Big Game " with their " .72 Caliber Blackpowder Rifles ".. http://forums.accuratereloadin...3821043/m/7461082921 PAPI  | |||
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Hey Yes, You might take a look at these " 20 Gauge ; DG SLUGS " http://www.ballisticproducts.c...o.asp?number=0721620 Or contact this site for loaded ammo , using the same slug. http://www.starsandstripesammo.com/index2.html http://www.starsandstripesammo.com/photos.html PAP | |||
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| One of Us |
I realize this is a " Hunting Forum ".., but these folks were " Camping ".. 1 Dead, 2 Hurt in Bear Attack at Mont. Campground. http://www.aolnews.com/nation/...-campground/19572412 I just recently returned from " Mammoth Lakes, CA " (Fishing / Camping). The " Campgrounds " had a Bear Warning Sign posted , along with some very heavy fines, for leaving food or Ice Chest out, & unattended. We didn't have a " Bear Box" @ our site. So, we decided to somewhat dry camp; No food stored in Camp, which meant eating out on the road, while sightseeing. We did prepared a few meals, but only enough to eat, without leaving any leftovers. 6/2/2010 " The bears are out and have been very active breaking into cars and roaming the campgrounds. This car was parked at El Capitan and was owned by some climbers up on the wall. They did have food in the car. Notice the bear tracks on the tops of the cars, he walked right down the line on top of the cars.Please do not leave food in your cars or out in the campground! If a bear gets into a bad habit of breaking into cars he may have to be put down. " http://www.myyosemite.com/cont...yosemite-valley-6210 I always carry a " Fishing & Hunting License ", along with my " Firearms " close by, whenever possible ! PAPI | |||
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| new member |
personnaly if it were me, a shotgun of any guage would be the very last thing I would reach for, or carry for bear defence. Give me a 340 Weatherby loaded with 250gr TSX or a 375H&H loaded with 270gr TSX. When the rangers went in on that grizz that ate T Treadwell and his girlfriend it was found at necropsy that one 12 guage slug had indeed bounced off the bears skull. Enough said. Cheers & Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester | |||
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| One of Us |
The originally question posted was: 1. " well it is known that 12 gauge pumps in 12 gauge are used for bear defense what about 20 gauge mag with one ounce brenneke slugs? one ounce slug in 20 gauge has better SD than one ounce slug in 12 gauge and 0.600 inch+ diameter is enough large too!! Then it went on with a bit more details : 2. " is not about choosing 20 gauge before 12 gauge for bear deffens!sure 12 gauge with heaviest slugs are better for bears. it is about preformance of slugs in 20 gauge, like you are hunting birds with a 20 gauge shotgun and meet a bear in the wood and 20 gauge is all you have to make the bear second best in the battle! " Now, based on the information provided ! Summary of Scenario: 1. Your out " Bird Hunting " with a " 20 Gauge " , which is all you have ! 2. Will a " 20 Gauge Slug " work better than whatever " Bird Shot " you were using.., in a possible " Bear " attack ? Summary of Suggestions: 1. Yes ; A " SLUG " can be fired in a " Shotgun ", using the correct " CHOKE ".. 2. Yes ; A " SLUG " (.60 cal Bullet) is a better " Defensive " round than " Bird Shot " or " Buckshot ". 3. Yes ; There are several options (Slugs), with better performance using a " HARDEN LEAD SLUG " , which won't deform as much as one made with softer lead. 4. Yes ; Interesting thread .. something to ponder over !! I've already considered most of your questions, for basically the same reasons. However, both of my Shotguns are " 12 gauge ", so I always carry my " 12 Gauge Dixie Slugs & Tri-Balls ", everywhere I go !! L.M. 20 Gauge | |||
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| One of Us |
hi papi thanks for the replies.unfortunately the choice of good slugs are limited for 20 gauge, the best i can find in sweden is brenneke slugs in 24 gram and 28 gram and those nice dixie slugs are not available here. best regards yes Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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| one of us |
Papi if a bear gets use to breaking into cars it should be killed. Who would care we have plenty of bears one needs to get rid of the trouble makers. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Alaska Hunting Forum 20 gauge 3 inch 1 ounce slugs vs bears
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