I entered the grocery store today and was greeted with a lady running up to asked if I was registered to vote.She wanted me to sign a list to stop same day flying ang hunting for bears and wolves being put on the ballot in November I guess.It was here in Juneau where its a place that has nothing to do with the interior of Alaska.I am visiting my girlfriend in Juneau I live in the interior.Juneau more like the Washington coast not interior Alaska.They hardly have any moose in this area none in Juneau. There is a move to reduce the number of bears in the interior in order to increase the moose population.The woman told me she wanted me to meet her boss.I told him about how the army loves to bomb moose and shoot moose,buffalo and caribou with the helicoper machine guns on the Ft Greely bombing range.He said he was a hunter but didnt want people wiping out the bears using planes.There is also a new fence around fort greely in which alot of moose got enclosed inside .The Army wants those moose to be shot and any buffalo that tries to take down the fence.Its about a 25 mile long fence.The grizzleys in the interior are not easily found like coatal bears.The bears wander all over in search of food and usually eat every calf moose and caribou they can find.The unit below 20 unit 13 hardly has near the moose it use to have due to the bears eating all the calf moose.I hardly saw any calf moose with cows last year.I did see wolves and bears chasing the adult moose around and they were not the weak or injured ones like people always say bears and wolves hunt.Its nuts when a guy who says he is a hunter ,who does not hunt moose but want more bears.If the bears and wolves are not reduced soon there will be large areas of Alaska without any moose.The local people dont shoot grizzleys because its too much to have a bear rug or they dont have any place to put one.The F&G started allowing baiting for grizzleys near Tok AK.The interior grizzleys are very smart and dont usually come out till late april till they go back in the fall in oct.This seems like a long time to hunt but they head for the mountains when its hot.Its hard to hunt for bears in the fall unless you kill them off of moose gut piles.If planes where used to spot and shoot them it would increase the # of bears and wolves shot.I just wondered how other Alaskan hunters felt about this.

quote:

I just wondered how other Alaskan hunters felt about this.

Well....honestly,,,, I voted for it before I voted against it and I'm still of 2 minds about it meaning that it's a complex issue that is most difficult to quantitate, however, the longer I think about it, I KNOW I did the right thing considering all of the factors and circumstances involved in this but others may differ on these matters entirely and I'd like their opinions also. This is not an easy thing that you ask and it can be an emotional issue as well though I do agree that bear rugs cost far too damn much and that moose gut piles are THE place to hunt them but so few realize this and now everyone knows.

DB

--- I don't live in AK , but some of my family does .

I'm a retired Forester , and I've got some strong feelings about the doins' that you describe .

Dishonorable Discharge is about right for Military types that shoot game for fun .

IMHO --- Wildlife Mgmt. for Wolves , Bear and Mt. Lions , --- in most of AK. should be left to Ma Nature .

Around places with lots of Population , -- it's O.K. to Trap and relocate large predators , that can endanger tourists , and campers . If , for example , a Bear has a known history of attacking Humans , it's ok to kill them .

Otherwise , I'd like to see Hunting Seasons MANAGED , -- to preserve ( as nearly as possible ) , --- the normal balance of Nature .

All of the above is conventional stuff , -- but I believe in it . --- Basically , I'm a Conservationist first , and a Hunter second .

I believe that all game Management should hold as a first principle ; -- THE MAINTAINING OF THE LARGEST GAME HERDS THAT THE COUNTRY WILL SUPPORT ( AND I'M TALKING MEAT ANIMALS HERE ) .

---------- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

I told him about how the army loves to bomb moose and shoot moose,buffalo and caribou with the helicoper machine guns on the Ft Greely bombing range.He said he was a hunter but didnt want people wiping out the bears using planes.There is also a new fence around fort greely in which alot of moose got enclosed inside .The Army wants those moose to be shot and any buffalo that tries to take down the fence.Its about a 25 mile long fence.

What proof do you have that this takes place? Where is this fence? Who said they want these moose shot? You make a lot of accusations, let’s see some proof. I have no doubt that there have been instances where animals have been inadvertently killed on bombing ranges, but to make the accusation that animals are being deliberately targeted is pretty far-fetched and irresponsible without proof. Anyone caught doing so would be punished severely and it is highly unlikely they would get away with it, there are not many secrets and when there’s someone shooting on the ranges there’s also others observing. Game laws on military land are enforced more diligently than just about anywhere I've been due to the much higher number of enforcement personnel and more control and restrictions over the use of the land. I spent my last four years in the Army stationed here in Alaska and the environmental restrictions on the use of the land are the most stringent of anywhere I've been stationed.

Seems like posting a comment about military personnel killing wildlife for fun/sport without some definitive proof is a worse case of hunters against hunters.

The fence was installed around the new missle base and around Fort greely.It is along the Richardson Hwy from Jarvis Creek to past the entrance of the actual army base.It was put up for security of the missle base.The moose with inside of the fence when it was put up.The fence borders the hwy on the front side ,the Creek which is about a river and goes back towards the Granite mountains.Several friend of mine worked on putting up the fence.It was completed very fast so the moose were inside the fence before it was completed.The army want to get rid of the moose so they dont tear down the fence.There are also a herd of wild Buffalo around Delta that will go through fences instead of around them.There has been a loss of alot of buffalo around the fence area.They were shot in the head and dragged to the river.They were all shot in the head .The air force has been using the bombing range for over 30 years or so.I think its one of the largest ones in North America.Fort Greely covers over 500,000 acres .The bombing range is across the Delta river by the Alaska range.They drop 500 pound bombs which can be felt in town 35 miles away.Its seems like a bombing range and a missle base would not be good close together now due to rattling the ground.There are tons of unexpoxed bombs over there no telling how many.There use to be a hudge herd of caribou numbering up to 500,000 in 1925.That herd is now down to about 700.Its common knowledge that herd of caribou,the buffalo and oose were targets of the air force for fun.There are more moose on the bombing range than any where around due to no hunting there.Its after moose season that the moose migrate across the river out of the bombing range.If you dont believe it thats your problem.There is also hopefully a cleanup 0fall the stuff the army has buried on Fort Greely.I am glad they hired a conservation officer for the base.He stooped the poaching of the caribou that were left before they were all gone.You can go about 10 miles south of the base and hardly see a moose any more.The F&G said they were going to have to do something about the moose in the fence because the Army complained about damage to the fence due to moose,buffalo and bears.The moose try to pull the fence .I saw a cow let three other moose through the fence by pushing open a place in the fence and her calfs and another moose came out with her.That was by the road.The buffalo will just about knock down any fence that can be put up.The bears can dig under any fence that can be made just like a backhoe if they want in.I asked F&G why they also issued so many cow and calf moose permits in unit 20a.They said that due to the no hunting in the bombing area that there were too many moose so they were cutting the numbers of moose way down.Its screwed up all the way around and the moose and hunters will be the loosers in the end.I fully support our troops .I have a bunch of friends in Iraq who were stationed in Fairbanks who I cant wait to go hunting with again.

First I was going to write a long reply to all this nonsense, then typed a smart ass remark, then just decided life is to short to get involved in this.

JD

"I entered the grocery store today and was greeted with a lady running up to asked if I was registered to vote.She wanted me to sign a list to stop same day flying ang hunting for bears and wolves being put on the ballot in November I guess."

I wasn't aware it was legal to shoot bears same day airborn. Is it?
If you're talking about the shooting of wolves from planes, that isn't hunting. It's predator control approved by F&G, baed on biology in certain areas.
Do you know who is sponsoring the ballot initiative?

Alasken,

Just a passing look shows many more "holes" in those 2 undecipherable posts.

http://www.wolfrivals.org/alaska

DB

dgr416

I'm AF pilot and your full of it, 90% of us hunt and respect the game we hunt.

And yes there is unexploded ordance on the bombing ranges all over the US.

I'll leave it at that.

dgr416,

Did they fence in any Russians?????? You forgot to mention them this time.

Joe

The only place the russian wont poach is the army base.I found out they are scared of the army but not F&G because they wont toch the russians.Unit 20 d has almost two pages of moose regulations.It has Military land which hardly gets hunted because the army usually trains during moose season.Thats why the moose stay on the bombing range and in the part of Fort Greely that is in the Delta Management area.There is state land,blm land,priviate land,native land and non of it is marked.There is a small sign at the begining of Ft Greely and end but non off the road.If you past Donnley creek on the Richardson hwy to Glenallen you will hardly see any moose due to the bears and wolves.This is the reason that it will take same day flying to knock down the population of moose and bears.They take around 85% of the moose and caribou calves in unit 13 and alot of unit 20.That was told to me at a F&G meeting by a F&G biologist.The F&G took away the requirement for a bear tag for redidents in unit 13 and unit 20d.The bear season in unit 13 was increased to almost year around but still not enough bears were killed.They tried bear baiting down by TOK to increase the bear kill.The residents of these areas usually only kill bears during moose hunts and kill the bears off of gut piles.The only further step to increase the bear kill was to allow same day flying to spot bears and wolves easier.The woman at the grocery store who asked me to sign against this coming on the ballot told me that it was a bill to shoot bears and wolves from airplanes.She told me that I needed to talk to the guy who was paying her to get people to sign the partition when i asked her if she knew about the bear and wolf problem in the interior.I talked to him for a while and asked if he hunted.He said he hunted mostly deer and bears on the costal islands but moose only a few times years ago. I gave a guy at a gun store a bunch of new hunting and gun magazines to send to the troops to read.I know that they cant wait to be back over here to be able to go hunting again.I also take kids who have parents that dont hunt ,hunting with me.One of my goals in life is to get at least 20 kids that dont hunt or kids that want to go hunting but dont have anyone to take them hunting with me.I have gotten 15 kids interested in hunting so far.If there are not more kids introduced into hunting its not going to matter or not weather there are any moose let to hunt because there will be no one to hunt them.

DGR:

I didn't read your entire rambling post (one long paragraph is a bit much). However, I do recall that when the state of Kansas wanted to introduce elk there they put them in the artillery impact area of Ft. Riley. Seems that the odds of a shell actually killing an animal where incredibly remote - at least a lot less likely than a poacher killing an elk with a bullet. Seems that those poachers where afraid to enter that impact area.

I was stationed at Ft. Richardson for a while, and spent quite a bit of time in the area you describe. I remember the Army employed civilians to manage the game on their reservations. They do a much better job than any private company.

Folks

I lived in Alaska for a long time and saw AK, F&G do some really good work. They could do better if race and politics were not involved but that is another story. Anyway I think the game biologists should make the decisions about game management and if they think we can shoot same day airborne for bears or wolves etc. who am I to argue with that. Emotion and emotion based ethics have no place in game management.

If it is biologically indicated to kill X amount of a species to insure sustainable harvest of another let's do it with any reasonable means. If you don't want to participate don't.

The real problem is that these things get to be voted on by the general public which in most cases does not knows its proverbial ass from a hole in the ground about game management.

Sorry for the rant but all these folks that don't have a clue commenting and having a say about something near and dear to my heart is upsetting to say the least.

Mark

Mark,
First of all, the post that started this thread lacks credibility to say the least. You have to consider the source.

You're absolutely right about "ballot box biology". It doen't make any sense, and in my opinion should not be allowed.

There was a ballot initiative here a few (3 or 4) years ago to not allow initiatives pertaining to wildlife issues. It was defeated, mostly due to the campaign against choosing not to vote on wildlife issues. The message of the campaign was that we would be giving up our right to vote if the initiative wsa passed. That message wasn't true, but a lot of people believed it.

There was also a ballot measure to outlaw the same day shooting of wolves. Luckily our F&G ignored the fact that it passed when they started the same day predator control program.

I think you were still up here when all this went down.

quote:

Originally posted by ovis:
dgr416,

Did they fence in any Russians?????? You forgot to mention them this time.

Joe

That's classic, Joe.

dgr416,
Most of us Alaskans have voiced our opinions on how things could be improved, but most of the time, speak pretty positive about our hunting experiences and the outdoors here. Seems every post you make about hunting here is a rant about the Russians, ADF&G, USFWS, etc... now its the military. Don't you have anything positive to say about our great state?

Alaska is one of the largest areas of North America that is still not developed and still has lots of open spaces.I wanted to go to Alaska from the age of 5 and finnally moved when I was 35.Its a million times prettier than I thought it would be.It still has lots of areas to hunt but its getting harder and harder unless you fly away fromk the road system.The people from Alaska (as in rual Alaska)are some of the nicest people you could ever meet.I like seeing all the moose ,caribou,bears,buffalo ,dall sheep and goats I have seen.It would just be nice if you could actually shoot some sometimes to eat.Hnters are last on the totem pole after the bears,wolves,poachers and cars.Let us not forget to save the ones left for the tourist to see.Before I came to Alaska i hunted for the meat I eat because I dont like the store bought crap.I figured that as big as Alaska is and as many moose as there are it would not hurt for me to take a moose but it gets harder and harder to take game in Alaska.According to the F&G there are only about 7700 moose taken by hunters a year.Thats why they want to knock down the bears some to bring up the moose populations.With all the fires we had had the past two years there should be tons of new growth for the moose.I think there could be more moose for hunters if the bears and wolves are thinned out what ever way it takes.I dont want them gone because Alaska would not be Alaska without them.

It is difficult to accept and to believe that he actually beat out and prevailed over the other + 1,000,000 sperm cells that were present and in the vicinity at the time.

DB

---If it is biologically indicated to kill X amount of a species to insure sustainable harvest of another let's do it with any reasonable means. If you don't want to participate don't.---

"the preceeding message was brought to you by the same folks that introduced Whirling Disease Positive Fish and the New and Improved strain of CWD"

sorry, i had to. we put WAY TOO MUCH faith in our F&G depts.
but you're correct, ballot-box biology is at the very least, foolishness.

quote:

The local people dont shoot grizzleys because its too much to have a bear rug or they dont have any place to put one.

is that for real?

gryphon1:
Yep, that is correct. Most locals just shoot one Brn/Grizz. Its expensive to have a rug made, and most folks won't eat them. Taste like rotten fish.
I'm the exception. I shoot everyone I can, legal of course. I give the hide to friends/relatives who want them.
The bears and wolves are a major problem in Alaska now. They have decimated the moose/caribou population in Alaska.
This year while moose hunting, we shot 3 Moose, 3 Brn Bear and 3 Blk Bear.
Somehow the numbers don't add up for me.

Thanks for that answer but i find it hard to comprehend why in the friggin` hell they wouldnt want to nail a big fella on the wall...i know i do and thats the truth sir.

gryphon 1

My experience in the AK bush is that the locals as in native people care nothing for the bears. To them they are varmints that raid there fish drying racks, smash their smokehouses and sometimes terrorize the populous. Trophies are a very low priority to these folks and the thought of rugging a bear out is not even a consideration. Game animals and fish are food and not much else. Bears are not considered at least in the area I lived to be good food so they had very little value.

On the other hand the bears are very plentiful with recently liberalized bag limits in the area I lived. If you'd like some info. on a hunt contact me anytime.

Mark

Thank you..ah one day (dream on)