Read the above in a thread on hunting in Scotland! Good greif!

Hunting in Scotland

Savage,

Sorry, that is totally incorrect.

Firstly, there is no such thing as a "licensed guide" in Scotland..Anybody can be a Stalker and take folks out as long as you legally have access to the land ect..

There are various Deer Management Qualifications but they are relatively new and voluntry and don't cover any "guiding" aspect

As a visitor, you would need a visitors firearm permitt if you want to bring your own rifle over, and that costs no more than about $30 but has to be arranged before you arrive...In practice who ever you book your stalking with will sort that out for you.

Alternatively, you can usually borrow a rifle off the Estate and this way there is no official paperwork, and usually no fee.

The Estate will employ a Stalker(s) to manage the deer on the ground and it will be one of these guys who takes you out. Traditionally if your out on the Hill, the Stalker will carry the Guests rifle (cased) untill they get to the final stages of the stalk and then hand the rifle to the guest to take the shot.

This is my no means "law" simply a tradition that harks back to Victorian times and probably owes its roots to keeping the old BP rifles dry and the fact back then, the Stalker was just another servant working for M'Lord...

If this bothers you, say so...I don't see that many Estates would insist on it in this day and age.

If your doing any sort of woodland stalking, its usual for the guest to carry the rifle all the time unless he/she is a complete novice and the stalker is actually starting them in the very basics.

The rifle is normally carried slung on the shoulder, loaded and safety on, unless climbing obsticles ect or travelling in a vehicle, then its unloaded...

Regards,

Pete

quote:

The Estate will employ a Stalker(s) to manage the deer on the ground and it will be one of these guys who takes you out. Traditionally if your out on the Hill, the Stalker will carry the Guests rifle (cased) untill they get to the final stages of the stalk and then hand the rifle to the guest to take the shot.

Good grief

Savage99, is the "Good grief" intended to signal culture shock or something??

I have more or less come to accept, that when you enjoy going to different parts of the World, to join the locals for a bit of hunting, you should expect to observe local tradition - if for no other reason than to show respect and gratitude. Since customs vary the World over, I have different expectations when I go to North America, Africa or Europe. That applies to everything from "dress code", animals to be taken, guns to be used, how to carry guns etc etc. The list is endless.

If the Scottish stalkers have the tradition of carrying your rifle cased until the final approach, I see nothing wrong with accepting that fact. It may not be how I would prefer my gun to be carried, but I'll be darned if I'm going to try to tell them how to run their hunts. Not only have they managed these estates for a long time, but I am the guest (paying or not), it is their country, their game, their tradition that I'm privileged to experience.

I think if I was the one who had received the very informative and pleasant reply from Peter, I would personally have started my next entry with something to the effect of: "Thanks for the feedback Peter". But I guess we all have different ways of expressing our gratitude to our fellow posters and hunters.

- mike

MHO,

On one hand you have a point and to boot Peter is a gentleman of the first order as well. On the other hand we had a revolution over here about stuff like that.

Maybe it's all perfect over there in Merry Old England now but when I was there they kept their guns locked in the clubhouse. A guard who worked in some secure place had his pistol stored for him in Wales in a locker. He picked it up when he got to work.

I have my gun leaning here against the couch thats next to the computer. I have another one in my pocket.



As of late I have been handling this one the most. I put a new scope on it since the pic was taken. Noboby else handles my guns.

Good reply Savage. Nice to have civil discussion, even if from the start, we may not have agreed.

I think there are two issues here: one is about gunlaws, and one about tradition. I personally have little time for (stupid and unnecessary) gun laws. The World is awash with them, proving that "resourceful" politicians abound. In France (Belgium and other countries?), you can't shoot a .30-06 (or other military calibers), but you can shoot a .300 Win Mag... In the UK (and Sweden?), I believe there are limits to how many rifles you may own, and certainly the UK has what seems like a pretty arbitrary licensing procedure. None of these laws contribute anything to safety or security in society. I have to observe the laws of the countries I visit, but I am not going to respect or agree to this nonsence. In the US, even with a bunch of questionable gun laws on your books, you are still very privileged, and it is probably good to remember that from time to time. Thanks to the Founding Fathers.

Then there is the other issue: one of tradition and common practice. Often these traditions have a long history, the origins of which are lost in the mist of history. When the people in the UK used to go fox hunting on their horses (recently outlawed), they were cultivating a tradition harking straight back to the Middle Ages. A ritual still (fortunately) observed and practiced in other countries - such as France. Contrary to gun laws, I try to respect and enjoy tradition, in all its multitude and as different as it can be from country to country. We owe that respect to our fellow hunters in other countries, in particular when we go to visit.

The Stalker carrying your (cased) rifle during the hunt, is a matter of tradition, rather than legality. I suppose some of this tradition stems from the time when the Gentry went afield with the Stalker managing their estate. Although most of us probably don't qualify as landed Gentry, we still run into this tradition when we go afield in Scotland. I personally find this rather interesting, quaint and a tradition to be revered. Would I prefer to carry my own rifle: absolutely. Am I going to complain if the Stalker prefers to carry mine: absolutely not, I'm his guest, after all.

Time for you to plan an outing in the Scottish Highlands, to sample the wonderful nature, some extremely exiting hunting, a wee dram and all the tradition and history!
- mike

Mike,

Our friends in GB are sailors and own no firearms. When they were over here we were at the camp in VT and they were shooting my guns one of which is a warm loaded old Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt.

Our pen pals took to that gun and in particular the first mate seemed to want one. She wants a big 4X4 pickup too. Bet she never will get either over there.

Savage,

Compared to most of the US are firearms laws are very strict...Some of which I think is a good idea and fits our way of living over here and some is BS as Mike says. There is no set upper limit to the number of firearms you can own as such, nor am I aware there is any calibre restrictions until you get up to Punt guns, although I might be wrong on that as some of the laws were revised a few years ago. Unlike the US, there are conditions that go with rifleownership, but there are plenty of shooters so they can't be that restrictive..

I have my rifles, some with moderators, at home along with my shotguns. There is no requirement to keep any firearms in some clubhouse or central store away from your house...never has been as far as I know for sporting weapons...

Can't say much about your buddy who was an armed private secuirity guard. Its very unusual for guards in the private sector here to be armed and I would think the arrangements for such would probably differ from Police Force to Police Force around the country...The reason that situation exists as that even today outside two or three big cities, armed robberies and armed crime of that nature is still extreamly rare despite what some sensationalists have you believe. In the last few years it has grown and seems to be mostly related to gang scene in those inner cities.

The chap who guns my local range has just invested in another ex military range not too far from me...This goes out to around 2500m and he bought it to meet the growing demand from the modern .50 calibre shooters and the guys with the old "anti-tank" rifles..

Not sure what the comment about the 4x4 relates to...I know some folks who own an army surplus tank (they do re enactments and off-road shows) and we have just about every size off roader below that here too...Most common are the LandRover Discovery/Defender size vehicles...

Regards,

Pete

Thanks for the informative reply. When we were over there, mostly in Wales, it was so nice to be welcome. Here in New England we are known for being cold to strangers. Not so in Cardiff, an alabaster city, where a meal was put on each table for a one hour visit.

Over here we think that we can't own silencers. We can but some states don't allow them for hunting.

I live in a redneck suburban/rural town. The typical vehicle here is the size of a Patton tank.



In town grocery getter.

Savage,

If it took an hour for the meal to arrive, I bet their was a tea pot on the table before you got your coat off!
Most visitors (especially from abroad) are very warmly welcomed although sometimes the English still get a frosty reception in the more rural parts...

If you look at Welsh history a bit you will see the North and the South spent as much time fighting each other as the English; I therefore might be biased when I say you have to visit Mid and North Wales to see the real Wales; we truely have some really beautiful country up here...South Wales was always more industrialised with the Valleys for instance being famous for their coal mines although all that has gone these days.

With regards your monster truck, I could take you on roads, (public roads I mean, not off road trails) that you would have trouble rolling one of those wheels along they are that narrow

Its kinda funny when your North American passanger starts closing their eyes & muttering repeatedly "I must not look down..." as you drive along quite normally!

If you or your family ever plan another visit, please give me a shout and I would be happy to show you around and maybe squeeze a bit of hunting in to ..

regards,

Pete

Mho,

I guess our attitudes are different because over here we don't consider using guns a priviledge, we consider it a right guaranteed by our consitution and founding fathers. Priviledges are things some eliteist gives to some one. Some of us are hard headed and feel that there isn't another human being on this planet that has the right to tell us what to do. This doesn't mean that when we are a guest or visitor in another land that we should arrogantly assert this attitude. It is just something that is at the core of our beliefs. There are
people here who believe that government should be controlling people rather than the other way around. It is
an ageless battle of viewpoints. I wish that gun ownership wasn't such a political concern. I would prefer
it if you chose to hunt in America you could bring whatever guns you had in Switzerland over here, enjoy a hunt, and be able to freely take them back without any government being the least bit concerned. Sadly, that
is not the way of the world.

Old Elk Hunter, I salute the US, and hope you may forever remain an example for the rest of the World with regards to liberal and responsible gun ownership. Your Founding Fathers provided you with a good foundation, and a as a determined body, you have managed to keep those rights by exercising your political clout. Good on you, may it stay that way forever!

Sadly, 9-11 made it a bunch more difficult for foreigners to travel with guns to and from the States. Still, if you know your way around the bureaucratic hurdles, it is still possible. In addition to the travel restrictions, there are currently more and more restrictions applied to how we foreigners can do business in the States in gun related items. Of late, I wanted to order a pair of scope mounts (bases and rings), for a rifle I'm having fixed in the States. A well known Internet shooters' supply shop refused to take my order because the items were allegedly on some list of restricted items. Also of late, another of my favourite shops could not supply plastic ammo boxes because of alleged restrictions. You ask yourself: scope mounts and plastic ammo boxes, restricted??? Alas, the World is forever getting more restrictive for the recreational shooter.

Still, we would all be worse off if it was not for the US - as more or less the last bastion for liberal gun ownership and supplier of new and exiting shooting related products. So, I'll still rely on the US in the future, as I have in the past, as a location for great shopping, superb outdoor life, best friendships, best quality gunsmithing and just plain fun. Keep it that way: shooters of the World, unite!
- mike

Pete,

Our hosts had a place on the Bristol Channel as well in Pembrokeshire. Although we rented a nice car I let my pal drive in Wales what with the left hand roads. He looks like Sterling Moss and drove like him. Some of the roads are so narrow that one wonders what will happen as you fly around a corner.

I worked with a man from Ireland that was here for 1.5 years. He was amazed that he could buy guns here. In Ireland they only let you have three firearms. The process to get them is horrible and dependent on the whim of some official. He spent all his free time while he was here shooting trap, skeet, and anything else
we would expose him to. We took him out to the range during the monthly machine gun shoot and he was
again amazed that civilians could own and use all kinds of machine guns. We do have to have a federal permit
to receive a machine gun but the transfer tax is only 200 bucks. I think it is rediculous that there are restrictions on machine guns. I can fire a semi-auto faster than most older machine guns. We have a lot of
liberal wimps here that won't hold the people who commit crimes responsible for their actions. They instead want all of us law-abiding people to have restrictions put on us. They forget that laws only affect the law-abiding folks and have no influence on criminals. If the world would simply execute known criminals life would
be a lot safer. I would like to see all violent criminals, drug dealers, and child molesters be eliminated from this planet. Not for punishement, but simply to clean up the gene pool.

You are right about getting simple parts for guns is getting more complicated. I have a rifle made by Bruno that I can't find any spare magazines for here. I can find them in Europe, but I have to comply with importation laws to get a simple magazine for an old rifle. All this does is make the part more expensive.

Interestingly, Ireland recently allowed citizens to buy handguns (if they comply with regulations of course). My cousin just got his Beretta 92.

As a big fan of Wales and it's history and being
lucky enough to have spent 30+ days there I loved the North. Stayed in a great pub and loved every day. Wife's bag had 50 lbs of wood etc. I never found how to arrange a hunt their or Scottland. I Love tradition and would love it. Peter, If you have any contact info please let me know.Will be back in Wales and Scottland in late Nov.
Thanks
Gene

I have only hunted in Scotland twice and never had a stalker want to carry my rifle. I have hunted in England and Scotland from the Cotswolds to moors north of Inverness and enjoyed every munite. I really enjoyed hunting Water deer as they are very small and remind me of the pygmy antelope of southern Africa.

I have noticed that those US citizens with the most parochial attitude about guns most often have never hunted outside the US.

I hunted in Scotland a few years ago. Applied for a gun permit, flew to Scotland, and then cleared customs. It was no different than any place else, except China, which is pretty strict. I kept my gun with me the whole time. Only two days included hunting. I carried the gun myself.

If you really want to see some great gun laws, go to New Zealand. you can actually hunt in the Natl Parks