I was sent this story today, Mark Audino, an agent of ours in NY state. Thought some of you might find it interesting. This hunt finished on Oct 8th I believe...

Please read the rest regarding my recent hunt in Kyrgyzstan only if you are bored silly.

We were just a few clicks from the Chinese border --- a true untouched trophy area at between 10,000 and 12,000 feet in elevation. I doubt many of the ibex that we saw had ever seen an upright hominid before. My 5 clients all scored on mid-Asian ibex, the largest at 48” and with heavy mass carrying all through to the tips. A 56-incher was taken last year on the exploratory mission just one peak beyond our last position. I knew trophy ibex were there and it was a pleasure to be in such pristine territory.

Unfortunately, I did not take one. Hunt logistics being what they were, I needed my clients to be successful first before the focus could shift to my own hunt. I hunted only as we rode out by horseback, but opted not to shoot an immature animal simply for the sake of taking one. I simply ran out of time. That said; our Kyrgyz guys in the hinterland were outstanding hosts and very hard working. Their exemplary efforts would be a model for others to follow. At 61, it was as tough a hunt physically as I had ever done, but I would gladly go back to hunt one particular mountain that was home to some trophy black-haired ibex some day.

What we were not expecting was an ambush by KGB agents on our way out of the hunt area looking to find something wrong with our paperwork, which was tight and proper as a drum. They camped for 5 days waiting for us to cross and internal border checkpoint. After 2 ½ days of intimidation, they finally extorted some cash out of the Ministry of Ecology – another government agency actually conducting our hunt – and we were released. The US Embassy was useless in helping us, so don’t expect the Marines to show up if you ever get in such a jam. All they said they could do was to “encourage” their counterparts in the corrupt Kyrgyz government to look into the matter. There are 2 economies there – the official one and the dark, underhanded one. It is a system rifle with the old Soviet mentality despite its status as a republic.

When I finally got back to Bishkek, I held court at the US Embassy and briefed our consular officials on the saga. There was a scruffy looking guy in the waiting room. He was in the Army, responsible for training special US and Afghan forces, and had come all the way from Afghanistan to get his passport renewed. He had been given the run-around by our embassy in Afghanistan, and had taken a chance that he could get better service in Kyrgyzstan. He told me that he had overheard the Consular officials in the office complaining about his application, which did not sit well with me. So, when the Consular official emerged with the Regional Security Officer to greet me, to their dismay I grabbed the soldier and told them that he was on the front line and needed support NOW. I spoke only after he was attended to. My bigger disgust were the pictures of Obama, Biden and Kerry in each office and all the waiting areas.

God Bless,

Mark

Mark Audino
Henley & Delamere
www.henleyanddelamere.com

CCCP = Corrupt Criminal Commie Punks.

Good for Mr. Audino.

Bribery is a way of life in Kyrgyzstan. Wages are dismal and the only way people can get by is by getting some graft here and there. From my experience there, it's very important to have a connected local with you at all times for situations like you described. I always recommend to people that they carry a couple grand extra on these type of hunts....just in case. It doesn't hurt to figure out who the people that can get things done are right off the bat and make sure you keep them happy. As you found out, you need to learn to take care of yourself because your embassy isn't going to be much help.

Not sure I'd blame the old Soviet regime as things were pretty tightly controlled under the Soviets. This is the new face of capitalism in a very poor country where corruption is the norm.

Was in Kyrgystan for 18 days total Sept 29th thru the 17th 25 miles from Chinese Border was camp, Hunted to within a few miles of the border, Never had an issue, Never felt like there was going to be any problems. Never talked to any Kryg official my whole trip not even the people at airport any checkpoints or permit office. Felt safe the whole trip. Booked with PRO , a very connected local outfitter. We saw poachers while glassing they took off when they saw our spike camp. 6 of them 3 of us..could have been a problem but wasn't.

Graft is one thing; what amounts to kidnapping for ransom is quite another!

Glad your trip went smoothly, Dennis.

I'm sure they referred to it as delayed due to paperwork. Kyrgyzstan is known as the most corrupt country in the world, no doubt due to being a fledgling and very poor democracy. As far as safety goes it's very safe but without someone connected with you...someone that is willing to push their weight around in situations like this, or at the very least know who to call, it can happen. It's not America over there and unfortunately it can all be part of the experience. One needs to do everything they can to mitigate the possibility of problems but at the end of the day you need to be prepared that they can happen. Your life will quite literally be out of your control the entire time in Kyrgyzstan and for people that can't deal with that, it's a poor choice of a hunting destination. For those that can it's quite the adventure. It really pays to book with people that can not only provide great hunting but also those who can work the system. Sometimes you just need to sit back and have a shot of vodka and things will work out.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
It's not America over there . . . . Your life will quite literally be out of your control the entire time . . . and for people that can't deal with that, it's a poor choice of a hunting destination.

I think I would be able to deal with it. After all, I've been to Canada . . . .

On a hunting trip to Alberta, I was "delayed due to paperwork" for three hours after landing in Edmonton.

I was randomly chosen for "special" screening, along with 25 or so other passengers. I passed with flying colors.

Only trouble was, there were only three customs people in the whole place, and two of them just stood around talking to each other while the other one took her sweet time with us, one by one, at the desk.

All they wanted was my full name, address and Social Security No. (so they could check and see whether I had a criminal record).

That required three hours for them to accomplish.

When I was finally "released," my outfitter, who thankfully had been waiting for me the whole time, asked me, "What are you? Some kind of f@ckin' terrorist?"

I found out later that the whole thing was a scam. When they do find someone with a criminal record, which is usually a DUI, they don't deny him entry into the country, they just make him buy some kind of permit for a couple hundred Canadian dollars that authorizes his visit.

Bribes do work, both official and unofficial.

At least the Canadian KGB didn't hold me at gunpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I found out later that the whole thing was a scam. When they do find someone with a criminal record, which is usually a DUI, they don't deny him entry into the country, they just make him buy some kind of permit for a couple hundred Canadian dollars that authorizes his visit.

Gotta pay for our universal healthcare somehow

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
It's not America over there . . . . Your life will quite literally be out of your control the entire time . . . and for people that can't deal with that, it's a poor choice of a hunting destination.

I think I would be able to deal with it. After all, I've been to Canada . . . .

On a hunting trip to Alberta, I was "delayed due to paperwork" for three hours after landing in Edmonton.

I was randomly chosen for "special" screening, along with 25 or so other passengers. I passed with flying colors.

Only trouble was, there were only three customs people in the whole place, and two of them just stood around talking to each other while the other one took her sweet time with us, one by one, at the desk.

All they wanted was my full name, address and Social Security No. (so they could check and see whether I had a criminal record).

That required three hours for them to accomplish.

When I was finally "released," my outfitter, who thankfully had been waiting for me the whole time, asked me, "What are you? Some kind of f@ckin' terrorist?"

I found out later that the whole thing was a scam. When they do find someone with a criminal record, which is usually a DUI, they don't deny him entry into the country, they just make him buy some kind of permit for a couple hundred Canadian dollars that authorizes his visit.

Bribes do work, both official and unofficial.

At least the Canadian KGB didn't hold me at gunpoint.

Compare with Kirgizstan
In Bishkek airport I spent on custom about 15-20min. I had coffee , some person of vip lounge asked me lock numbers of guncase, after few minutes he sad my all luggage in the car already and I can leave. Cost of vip lounge there is 100$

The VIP service at the airport is well worth the money in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

On a hunting trip to Alberta, I was "delayed due to paperwork" for three hours after landing in Edmonton.

I was randomly chosen for "special" screening, along with 25 or so other passengers. I passed with flying colors.

Only trouble was, there were only three customs people in the whole place, and two of them just stood around talking to each other while the other one took her sweet time with us, one by one, at the desk.

All they wanted was my full name, address and Social Security No. (so they could check and see whether I had a criminal record).

That required three hours for them to accomplish.

When I was finally "released," my outfitter, who thankfully had been waiting for me the whole time, asked me, "What are you? Some kind of f@ckin' terrorist?"

I found out later that the whole thing was a scam. When they do find someone with a criminal record, which is usually a DUI, they don't deny him entry into the country, they just make him buy some kind of permit for a couple hundred Canadian dollars that authorizes his visit.

Bribes do work, both official and unofficial.

At least the Canadian KGB didn't hold me at gunpoint.

Try getting into the U.S. with charges or a conviction on your record...even for DUI. It's a reciprocal agreement between Canada and the U.S. and no, you can't buy your way in to Canada....lol

As I recall, it was called a Temporary Residence Permit.

It was freely offered by Canadian customs, and could be bought (after several hours of detention) by a luckless traveler for a couple hundred Canadian bucks. And it would suffice to get a "criminal" into Canada.

Cash is king . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
As I recall, it was called a Temporary Residence Permit.

It was freely offered by Canadian customs, and could be bought (after several hours of detention) by a luckless traveler for a couple hundred Canadian bucks. And it would suffice to get a "criminal" into Canada.

Cash is king . . .

LOL....your memory might not be as good as you think you recall. They can't detain anyone for having a previous conviction.....deny entry sure...but your version makes a heck of a better story.

Did a quick Google search. Turns out my memory is pretty good.

Canadian Temporary Resident Permit

I especially like this part:

"To be eligible for a temporary resident permit, your need to enter or stay in Canada must outweigh the health or safety risks to Canadian society, as determined by an immigration or a border services officer. Even if the reason you are inadmissible seems minor, you must demonstrate that your visit is justified."

I learned, from DUI veterans of the experience, that after laying two hundred Canadian bucks on the table, they got in, not as tourist hunters, but as paid temporary residents.

As for detention, it takes as much time as they decide it will take.

In my case, while my outfitter's American made pick up truck waited outside, three hours.

As for paying and staying or not, the choice is simple.

Pay two hundred Canadian, or book whatever return flight one can manage to book and head right back to the USA.

And lose every US cent paid for one's hunting trip.

Freedom of choice? You tell me.

Luckily, I was as pure as the driven snow.

That seemed to really piss them off.

I didn't even get a "Sorry for the delay."

You do have a vivid imagination if nothing else! Likely best if you avoid Canada and Kyrgyzstan all together.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
You do have a vivid imagination if nothing else! Likely best if you avoid Canada and Kyrgyzstan all together.

Very weak.

Not imagination. Experience.

Why are you making this personal?

Read your own government's website.

It's particularly repugnant that they give sole discretion to the "officer" at the desk, who is given clear marching orders: Raise money.

Demanding and accepting a bribe is shameful, whether authorized and directed by Canadian customs, blamed on culture or poverty, or otherwise.

I will never condone or excuse it, as you seem so willing to do.

Not to say that paying a bribe is never required.

Two different questions entirely.

In my experience a lot of people dont appreciate how hard it can be for foreigners to get into their country.

My parents just spent eight months living in France. My mother was complaining about what bastards the French authorities had been... my reply... "HELLO mother, if you were French you wouldnt have been allowed to come to Australia and do what you did.... hello....hello", "Oh...I didnt really think of that"

I get savaged coming to the USA because I come every year and I actually have a reason.

Friend of mine got sent home all the way from Canada to Australia because he had a DUI. He was there for a business meeting. He very nearly got sacked over it.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
You do have a vivid imagination if nothing else! Likely best if you avoid Canada and Kyrgyzstan all together.

Very weak.

Not imagination. Experience.

Why are you making this personal?

Read your own government's website.

It's particularly repugnant that they give sole discretion to the "officer" at the desk, who is given clear marching orders: Raise money.

Demanding and accepting a bribe is shameful, whether authorized and directed by Canadian customs, blamed on culture or poverty, or otherwise.

I will never condone or excuse it, as you seem so willing to do.

Not to say that paying a bribe is never required.

Two different questions entirely.

Nothing personal at all....I just think you have a very vivid imagination.....what government do you think it is that gives Canadian Custom officials access to U.S. criminal records? Like I tried to explain politely before, this is a reciprocal agreement between the U.S. and Canada. The exact same thing you are criticizing Canada for is done by U.S. officials. If you have a record and try to cross the 49th parallel either way, there's a good chance you will be refused entry. There is a process on both sides to get special permission to enter, depending on the circumstances. This must typically be done well in advance of your visit. $200 in your pocket most definitely does not guarantee you access into Canada if you have a record. To portray otherwise is ridiculous. If you don't have a record, then you will likely be welcomed into either Canada or the U.S. with relative ease although we all have horror stories of crossing the border I'm sure.

Of course the process is reciprocal. The difference is that the US doesn't use it as a money making opportunity.

The US is not an easy country to get into for foreign hunters. Believe me, I know that. I am not suggesting anything else.

But I did watch two US citizens with DUI convictions in the US (I couldn't help overhearing their discussions with the customs woman) hand over $200 Canadian in the customs office at the airport in Edmonton, in each case after being randomly chosen from a plane load of arriving passengers from Minneapolis, detained for 2-3 hours and threatened with refusal of entry to the country.

As I was later able to determine, right then and there, on the spot, "a border services officer" determined that their "stay in Canada . . . outweigh[ed] the health or safety risks to Canadian society" and they were admitted to Canada. For $200 Canadian, of course.

As I said, it's a scam, or at least it was for the unfortunates nabbed on that flight. Hard to imagine it was a one-off, dreamed up by the Edmonton customs office, don't you think?

Charlie Manson would have a tougher time, I would guess. Maybe they would charge him $300?

Anyway, as I say, good for Mr. Audino. He and his Kyrgyz contacts were able to get one Kyrgyzstani government ministry to pay a bribe extorted by officials of another branch of the same government.

Pretty good work.

I guarantee they weren't detained....lol I've tried to explain it to you politely and obviously you have no interest in the truth but it serves as good warning for those traveling either way across the 49th parallel that if you have a criminal record, deal with it before showing up at customs because despite Mr. Robinson's insistence, $200 in your pocket is not a guarantee into Canada....not even remotely close. You may well be denied entry...the same if you were a Canadian travelling south to the U.S. but you won't be detained....lol

Sorry, hoss. I was there; you weren't. I saw and experienced the truth. You are weakly defending official bribery.

Admittance to Canada to two US DUI offenders was freely offered for the sum of $200 Canadian each.

Better to deal with it beforehand, to be sure, but this scam was aimed at the unprepared, and it was pretty effective.

And I and they were absolutely detained. As in, not free to leave. Not until the background check was done and we were "dealt with" according to the result.

In my case, free to visit. In the case of the DUI duo that I witnessed, free to go home or pay $200 to stay.

Sorry you don't like the facts, but that's the way it was.

I'm through with this.

Next time you come to Canada and are "detained", offer the nice Canadian Border Services Agent a couple hundred to let you in and I suspect you'll find out the definition of "detained" quite quickly....lol Glad you had such a rewarding experience in our fair country.

BTW, the U.S. government charges $160 for the same tourist visa so with the difference in the dollar....well you get the point. I won't be so crass as to call it official bribery though

Check mate !

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Next time you come to Canada and are "detained", offer the nice Canadian Border Services Agent a couple hundred to let you in and I suspect you'll find out the definition of "detained" quite quickly....lol

TR,

That is a complete non sequitur. So I'm not quite through.

Once again, as I learned first hand and reported above, no one even had to offer the $200. Your government's border official solicited it with no prompting.

Now that's what I call service.

Bad news: Sorry, but your DUI conviction makes you persona non grata.

Good news: But for $200 you can stay.

After three hours of detention, of course.

Again, sorry you don't like the facts, but they're the facts whether you like them or not.

BTW, in response to your snide remark, I had a great time in Alberta. I killed a big muley near Kitscoty. Great folks and great hunting.

Once your government decided they had to let me in free of charge, of course.

It's becoming ever more clear why you were detained...lol Glad you had a good hunt in Canada...we aim to please.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
It's becoming ever more clear why you were detained...lol Glad you had a good hunt in Canada...we aim to please.

I was detained by your government in a failed effort to raise revenue. Next time I visit Edmonton, I guess I'll have to use the VIP lounge.

Or maybe I'll take a page from Mr. Audino's book, and try to get the Canadian Tourism Commission to intervene!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:


I'm through with this.

So apparently this statement is as accurate as the rest of your tale....lol

Ah, so that's it. You're calling me a liar.

You could have just said that up front and saved me some typing.

I bet crossing into Afghanistan from Pakistan is a lot easier!

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
It's becoming ever more clear why you were detained...lol

Sheephunter AB it is clear that you want to argue no matter the facts. I guess you think your country is perfect? Mine is run by criminals and I will freely admit this. I believe this is true of every country.

Why do you feel it you duty to defend your bureaucracy?

Only a fool believes his country is "pure and true".

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
It's becoming ever more clear why you were detained...lol

Sheephunter AB it is clear that you want to argue no matter the facts. I guess you think your country is perfect? Mine is run by criminals and I will freely admit this. I believe this is true of every country.

Why do you feel it you duty to defend your bureaucracy?

Only a fool believes his country is "pure and true".

I think you have it confused regarding what are the facts. I'm not defending the bureaucracy or claiming anything is perfect and I have no interest in arguing with anyone...I'm trying to set the record straight regarding visitors from the U.S. entering Canada so someone doesn't believe the fantasy being put forward here and get themselves in a bind at the border. Isn't the point of this forum to help out fellow travelling hunters? Despite all his cute emoticons, Mr. Robinson's tale and take on the "facts" certainly wasn't doing that. Canada, like the U.S. has a process for those with criminal records to follow to gain access to their respective countries. Unless Mr. Robinson is a convicted criminal he was never asked for money to enter Canada and there is no bribery, official or unofficial going on. It a reciprocal agreement between the U.S. and Canada for which there is a documented process. I guess his BS really bugs me because I have several friends that are CBSA agents and his insinuation that they were on the take is not only insulting but downright slanderous.

How the hell did he slander your friends?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
How the hell did he slander your friends?

LOL..... by saying that CBSA agents were extorting
American visitors.

Guys. I have given up. This guy sheephunterab (whoever he really is behind his internet anonymity) is in a state of complete and utter denial and has resorted to ad hominem attacks - calling me a liar, slanderer (get a clue, if this were untrue and hurt anyone in particular, it would be libel ), etc.

Ridiculous. For the record:

Never did I say that the law was not reciprocal or that there was not a process for the forewarned to follow. Never did I say that anyone was "on the take." In fact, I said that it would obviously be best to follow the official process. What apparently rubbed this guy the wrong way was that I stated, very clearly, that this Canadian "enforcement" mechanism was an obvious scam intended not to protect Canadian society, but to raise money. In other words, this practice was nothing but officially sanctioned extortion.

Canadian customs forced a large group (25 or so) of air passengers, selected on a who-knows-what basis, to wait in an airport customs office for several hours (I got out in 3, but when I left there were still many of my fellow passengers standing around waiting), while a ridiculously undermanned operation (one woman) took her sweet time interrogating each of us. (The two male officers must have been trainees, or observers. As far as I could tell, they did nothing constructive or helpful the entire time.)

I left out many of the details that demonstrate how obnoxious this experience was: The customs woman called us up, one by one, and asked if we were convicted felons (pointing out that a DUI in Canada is a felony, unlike the US, and a DUI conviction in the US would prevent us from entering their country). I could be wrong, but I don't believe that anyone confessed. Some, including me, were called up and "interviewed" repeatedly.

In the end, after three trips to the desk, and a computer-assisted background check (they're supposed to be fast, right?), I was told that I was free to go. Nothing more. No apology. No sorry for the inconvenience. No nothing. At that point, I really didn't care. I just hoped that my outfitter had not given up on me and left me stranded. I got out of there as fast as I could.

They screened everyone in the room in a similar way in the hope that they would nab some with convictions.

I am only aware of two DUI "convicts" that were nabbed, but as I said, I was only detained for 3 hours and left early. It could be that they also ID'ed a convicted serial killer out roaming the world on early release, and that they actually sent him home to the US. But somehow I doubt it.

This scam was clearly aimed at the unprepared US traveler with a DUI conviction, which is considered a non-felony in most US jurisdictions, and which could trip up anyone not aware that it is considered a much more serious crime in Canada. Not that it shouldn't be considered a serious offense, of course. Just that it's an easy way to nab the unsuspecting US citizen and extract an officially sanctioned governmental bribe.

The US DUI duo that I saw in Edmonton were first threatened with refusal of entry. Flat out. But then, after an appropriate delay to sweat things out, they were told that for $200 Canadian they could buy a "Temporary Resident Permit" and continue on their way. How convenient. Not so dangerous after all. Apparently, although a DUI is supposedly a serious crime in Canada, their customs officers are all too ready, as their law permits, to make the on-the-spot determination, in their sole discretion, that a US citizen convicted of a DUI may enter the country, because his "stay in Canada . . . outweigh[s] the health or safety risks to Canadian society" of letting him in.

For $200 Canadian of course. As I said, an obvious and obnoxious scam. Officially sanctioned extortion, governmental bribery - call it what you will, but that's my take on it.

From first hand experience.

But of course, according to the defense sheephunterab (whoever he is) has put up, I made all of this up. I'm a liar. And I'm "slandering" Canadian border officials. And I'm not helping fellow hunters by exposing this scam.

My experience in Edmonton has not kept me from hunting in Canada. I find the Canadian people (as opposed to their government) to be very hospitable, even though brushing up against them has had a definite tendency to kill my mojo.

So your one negative experience based on eavesdropping on some other travellers' interactions with one CBSA agent and a whole bunch of speculation makes you come to the conclusion that this is standard policy in Canada and is nothing more than extortion...I get it now.

Thanks for clearing that up.

BTW, I never called you a liar...but don't let the truth ruin a good story

My apologies to the OP for the monumental derail....Now I am through...

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
So your one negative experience based on eavesdropping on some other travellers' interactions with one CBSA agent and a whole bunch of speculation makes you come to the conclusion that this is standard policy in Canada and is nothing more than extortion...I get it now.

No, I'm sure it was an unsanctioned one-off.

Just like the "low-level, renegade" US IRS agents in the Cincinnatti office who decided, entirely on their own, without being directed to do so from Washington, to delay and deny non-profit status to conservative public interest groups.

Man, are you naive.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
How the hell did he slander your friends?

LOL..... by saying that CBSA agents were extorting
American visitors.

Check you definition of slander!!

I grew up in Canada. I have citizenship both in Canada and the US. My experiences with Canada Customs at the border have too frequently been with assholes (except when the border officer is a woman; in those cases, I have had no complaints). When I drive to the US, I am met with professionalism.... not so when I drive to Canada. My late father, returning home to Canada following surgery, and suffering greatly/visibly due to infected sutures, was strip-searched by the Canadian bastards and treated very discourteously. I am ashamed of my native country, and glad/honoured to be an American.

https://www.facebook.com/JimShockeyFanPage


Very nice ibex and Argali just taken by Jim Shockey during filming of The Professionals (see link).

Dear Matt

Sounds like you did not pay your money on the way in.

They will sit on the side of the road waiting for you. Even if the plane is 24hrs late.

Lets talk next time I catch up. I will make a point of it.

Regards Mark