Where to go. How to hunt.

What different sub-species are there?

The only place you will legally hunt a Gaur is in Texas. I know they have taken some off the Just Enough Ranch according to the SCI record book. I'd hate to guess what it would cost, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was over $20K for one.

There are 4 or 5 different species, but they are listed as critically endangered in their native lands. Like most exotics in Texas, the ones being hunted now are probably hybrids.

Mac

I am a purist, and that doesn't interest me.

I still remember the story of the hunt that Bert Klineburger wrote years ago about a gaur hunt in India .. It was a trophy of trophies !!!

I think most people discount the different species of wild ox or cattle.

The Kouprey which is not nearly extinct it said to be vicious, as is the dwarf african buffalo....The banteng and the guar are just huge....they all have enormous sporting capabilities, but nealry extinct in the wild. I wish someone to find the kouprey in the wild [none are in captivity] but it mioght never happen again. The wars in Viet and Camobodia have taken thier toll on this amazing creature!



and yes they got the frays in the horns as dipicted.

Perhaps you may wish to revisite Edison Marshall´s tale about hunting the sladang in his old book "Shikar & Safari". By the way, that is excellent reading, if a little difficult to find these days.
Regards

My favourite hunting book of all time is ' Heart of the Hunter' .. by Edison Marshall ... I've never seen the other one but I would certainly buy it in a New York minute !!!! His depiction of his hunt for a saladang ... sheesshhhh !!! In long ago far away French Indo China !!!

I will try and find it. I wish more of these were AVAIL....

quote:

Originally posted by MAC:
Like most exotics in Texas, the ones being hunted now are probably hybrids.

Mac

Just out of curiosity, what other exotics in Texas are hybrids? The only thing I can think of (outside bovines) would be our Armenian (Red) Sheep population in the Glass Mountains, which is still considered the purest herd in the world, as the species itself is considered by many to be a cross-breed of two other species.

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
I still remember the story of the hunt that Bert Klineburger wrote years ago about a gaur hunt in India .. It was a trophy of trophies !!!

Bert Klineburger


Kouprey

My, oh my !!!! I remember .. correctly !!! Thank you so much ... and have a Merry Christmas !!!

Richard Powell

Gaur, Chowsingha (four horned antelope) and chital trophies hanging at Williams Gunsight in Davison, Michigan. They've got a few ancient tigers as well.

TradeMarkTexan:

In regards to your question on hybrids: The following from the SCI record books are noted as being subject to and known to be documented for hydridization due to interbreeding.

Gaur, Yak, Water Buffalo, Eland, Gemsbok, Beisa Oryx, Scimitar-Horned Oryx, Arabian Oryx, Addax, WaterBuck, Common Lechwe, Nile Lechwe, Black wildebeest, White-Bearded Wildebeest, Blesbok, Grant Gazelle, Dama Gazelle, Goitered Gazelle, Springbok, Chamois, Persian Ibex, Alpine Ibex, Nubian Ibex, Asian Ibex, West & Mid-Caucasion Tur, Markhor, Hybrid Ibex, Feral Goat, European Mouflon, Armenian Mouflon, Red Sheep, Afghan Urial, Hybrid Sheep, Multi-Horned Sheep, Red Deer, Barasingha, Eld Deer, Sika Deer, Sambar, Hog Deer, Reeves Muntjac, and Feral Boar.

There are a lot more types of exotics considered to be hybrids than there are considered to be pure bloodlines.

Mac

Well, due to war in IndoChina/SE Asia the Kouprey is considered the most endagered large mammal in the world. They have not been seen since the V.War and following Civil Wars.

Gaur have not faired much better with thier horns being a substitute for rhino horns.

Banteng the same, except Australia introductions.

The ones in Australia are not considered to be true Banteng by the Zoologist. They are considered to be Bali Wild cattle.

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
The ones in Australia are not considered to be true Banteng by the Zoologist. They are considered to be Bali Wild cattle.

That's the first time I have heard that. Can you elaborate? Who is the "Zoologist"?


***


On Gaur, I saw some very nice gaur in Kanha feeding in the open in North-Central India last week . Unfortunately right on dawn so the light wasn't sufficient for photography. Did get some grey video footage. Later photographed some in thick forest in good light.

Unfortunately rare in their home range (about a 100 in Kanha ??? - I am to be sent the census numbers this week some time) so no hunting. which I personally find an immense disappointment. Unfortunately the gaur also take a battering from Tiger and with Tiger populations increasing in some areas ....

Closest is the Banteng of the Coburg Peninsula in the NT of Australia or beasts in your Texas game farms I suppose if hunting little fenced paddocks is your thing.

This site has pictures and video of them in the wild [?]. Take a look, but obviously no hunting.


http://www.arkive.org/species/GES/mammals/Bos_frontalis...e_moving_images.html

Neat video of those Gaur.That bulge of muscle across the back of the bulls makes them look like steroid powered bodybuilders.The mounted specimen in the post above is impressive but does not do justice to the animal.

Great animals huh!

quote:

Originally posted by MAC:

There are 4 or 5 different species, but they are listed as critically endangered in their native lands. Like most exotics in Texas, the ones being hunted now are probably hybrids.

Mac

This is said with a jovial tone, but correction none the less

The ONLY species that is commonly sold as exotics and are hybrids are some of the rams.. and these are generally sold as "mouflon" ...

Seriously, please don't use anything "Like most exotics in Texas" ... most animals DONT hybridize in the first place.


Next, Guar can not be hunting in any place they occur naturally... and if there's someone's livestock that you would like to hunt, great...


Banteng...

quote:

The banteng and the guar are just huge....they all have enormous sporting capabilities, but nealry extinct in the wild.

Once again, let's not lump SPECIES together.. Guar - endangered... Banteng -- you can hunt them EVERY DAY IN THE WILD in OZ... yes, they are reseeded, but, they are totally absolutely wild.


And before one goes off on Texas exotics, recall that there are more nilgai and blackbuck WILD in texas than there is in india and pakistan... and that texas Blackbucks have restored the THEN extinct native BB to indea....

TWICE

jeffe

quote:

And before one goes off on Texas exotics, recall that there are more nilgai and blackbuck WILD in texas than there is in india and pakistan... and that texas Blackbucks have restored the THEN extinct native BB to indea....

Good point! We should not forget this. TX has done as much for certain species preservation as many of the hearlded zoos. Blackbuck were on the watch list for extinction. Copnsidering the TX and SA populations I doubt that now!

quote:

Originally posted by nainital:
Perhaps you may wish to revisite Edison Marshall´s tale about hunting the sladang in his old book "Shikar & Safari". By the way, that is excellent reading, if a little difficult to find these days.
Regards

Without a doubt one of my favorite all time hunting tales. A great read. I have no wish to return to Vietnam...except maybe to hunt Sladang.

Jeffesso,

To reply to your above post, I merely answered a question by TradeMarkTexan as to hybrids. I really don't care what is "sold or advertised" as hybrids, I took my information directly from the SCI record book.

It's a simple fact that animals of very similar species will interbreed if left in close proximity with each other, like the conditions found on many game ranches. For instance, there are at least 4 recognized species of waterbuck in Africa, but since those species have been crossbred in Texas, all waterbuck are considered hybrids for record book entrance when taken in Texas. That same reasoning covers Kudu, Lechwe, Gaur and all the other species I mentioned in my earlier post.

Bottom line is that you will not find an Idonesian Gaur, a Malayan Gaur, or an Indian Gaur listed on any ranch in Texas even though they are all recognized seperate species. They are all simply called Gaur in Texas because the individual bloodlines have been crossbred and that is the definition of "HYBRID". There just ain't that many pure bloodlines because too many species are shipped from one ranch to another and it's inpossible to keep them pure over such a large scope.

With that said, I have done some hunting for exotics like blackbuck and aodad in Texas and have found it to be an enjoyable experience. I just find it difficult to understand why so many Texans get so defensive about little things like a post about hybridization of non-native game species.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Mac

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
..... more nilgai and blackbuck WILD in texas than there is in india and pakistan... and that texas Blackbucks have restored the THEN extinct native BB to indea....

TWICE

jeffe

Blackbuck are definitely NOT extinct in India ?????????

Jeffeosso,

Where were these "BB's" 're-introduced' into India ?

Mac,
I take a scientific view on hybrids... ligers are hybrids... that three different breeds of guar are fully cross fertile means, from a biologist's persective, that they are the same species, merely different breds...

quote:

I just find it difficult to understand why so many Texans get so defensive about little things like a post about hybridization of non-native game species.

sir, your "question" is inaccurate, as these are inraspecies BREEDING, not hybrids... mules are hybrids, thoughbreds (by name denoted) are the same species breding (draft horses to arabians) ..

let's take dogs, for example, it is POSSIBLE for a great dane and a chichiua to crossbreed... and if the dane is NOT the sire, a viable litter will result... that actually can bred with other dogs.

these are not hybrids.. they are the same species...

if you would like to play a semantics game, the question that you are raising is one of sub-species... and subspecies can interbred with the main line species.... and then back to their subspecies...

Yes, if one took lord derby eland and common eland, they could pasture breed .. guess what? an ELAND... not a hybrid...


and if one took donkey's and horses, one would have a cross SPECIES offspring, which is a hybrid.

That the are advertised are as generic "GUAR" is more accurate than the "angus" steak I ate last night being from an "angus" cow, as "angus" steak is a grade, not a genetic assay.

nitro
take a look in the SCI book for NA blackbuck

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
..... more nilgai and blackbuck WILD in texas than there is in india and pakistan... and that texas Blackbucks have restored the THEN extinct native BB to indea....

TWICE

jeffe

Blackbuck are definitely NOT extinct in India ?????????

Jeffeosso,

Where were these "BB's" 're-introduced' into India ?

Considering that BB havent been legally hunted in India for so bloody long now i find the Jeffeosso statement a little strange myself also.

legally hunted (in india and/or pakistan) doesnt' stop them from being shot out.... and eaten...

the blackbuck in india are replants from texas stock...

so, were are they native from "now"

jeffe

Jeffeosso can you furnish us with some info re: this restocking India with TX bb please?

I cant find any info so far.

BLACKBUCK IN ORISSA
(Local Oriya names: 'Krushnasar mriga', 'Bali Harina', 'Kala bahutia'

The Indian Blackbuck (Antilope cervicapra), is one of the three species of antelopes found in Orissa. The other two are Nilgai (Boselaphus tragocamelus) and the Chowsingha (Tetracercus quadricornis). All the three are even-towed (Artiodactyla) Bovids. Blackbuck is considered to be the fastest animal in the world next to Cheetah. There is a fast decline in the population of Blackbucks throughout the country due to poaching and habitat loss. In the recent past, this endemic animal was most numerous, commonly seen as a large wild mammal in the Indian subcontinent. Subsequently within a short span of time this animal has suffered much reduction in numbers. Blackbuck is included in the Schedule-I of Wildlife (Protection) Act, 1972 and is designated as Vulnerable as per Red Data Book (1994). It is one of the most popular exhibits in most of the zoos of the country and else where.
Top

DISTRIBUTION AND STATUS
In India the species is wide spread in Rajasthan, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Tamilnadu and other areas throughout peninsular India. In 1982, the estimated population in India was between 22,500 to 24,500. According to 1993 estimation, the population of Blackbuck in India was between 10,000 and are stable or increasing.

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
I cant find any info so far.

BLACKBUCK IN ORISSA
(Local Oriya names: 'Krushnasar mriga', 'Bali Harina', 'Kala bahutia'

The Indian Blackbuck (Antilope cervicapra), is one of the three species of antelopes found in Orissa. The other two are Nilgai (Boselaphus tragocamelus) and the Chowsingha (Tetracercus quadricornis). All the three are even-towed (Artiodactyla) Bovids. Blackbuck is considered to be the fastest animal in the world next to Cheetah. There is a fast decline in the population of Blackbucks throughout the country due to poaching and habitat loss. In the recent past, this endemic animal was most numerous, commonly seen as a large wild mammal in the Indian subcontinent. Subsequently within a short span of time this animal has suffered much reduction in numbers. Blackbuck is included in the Schedule-I of Wildlife (Protection) Act, 1972 and is designated as Vulnerable as per Red Data Book (1994). It is one of the most popular exhibits in most of the zoos of the country and else where.
Top

DISTRIBUTION AND STATUS
In India the species is wide spread in Rajasthan, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Tamilnadu and other areas throughout peninsular India. In 1982, the estimated population in India was between 22,500 to 24,500. According to 1993 estimation, the population of Blackbuck in India was between 10,000 and are stable or increasing.

A current figure shows them in one park at 3000 plus and this park is only 36 Kilometres square so they are not so endangered as one would think maybe.

i'll see if I can't get a scanned copy of the SCi record book stating this directing

meanwhile, here's an instances of reseeding
http://www.kyleranch.com/exotics.htm

quote:

BLACKBUCK ANTELOPE
Native of India these small beautiful animals have adapted so well to the Hill Country of Texas that they are almost "free range". So limited in number in their native country that they have been shipped back to India from game ranches in Texas in attempts to increase the herds in their native land.

quote:

BLACKBUCK ANTELOPE

This was well documented on a "NATURE" PBS show a few years ago where the native herds were so deminished that they used TX BB to repopulate the native areas. It was a good show.

All interesting news for sure,next those good old boys will be shipping emu`s back to Oz

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
DISTRIBUTION AND STATUS
In India the species is wide spread in Rajasthan, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Tamilnadu and other areas throughout peninsular India. In 1982, the estimated population in India was between 22,500 to 24,500. According to 1993 estimation, the population of Blackbuck in India was between 10,000 and are stable or increasing.

Gryph,

The 'transplants' must have bred like rabbits!

***

Not saying some weren't shipped back but I do not believe they were 'extinct' in India. Without good evidence to the contary.

The area of Rajasthan that I visited near Jodhpur where the Bishnoi villagers live certainly seemed to have adequate numbers. The Bishnoi protect them as they believe they are re-incarnated as blackbuck after death. Indeed the Bishnoi were sometimes in conflict with the Maharajahs who wanted to hunt the blackbuck sometimes with disasterous consequences to the human Bishnoi population as a result.










More Indian photos

Mate posting oics like those will have those good ol` boys sick with envy mate

Aint he a dandy buck too!

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
My favourite hunting book of all time is ' Heart of the Hunter' .. by Edison Marshall ... I've never seen the other one but I would certainly buy it in a New York minute !!!! His depiction of his hunt for a saladang ... sheesshhhh !!! In long ago far away French Indo China !!!

Your wish is my command;

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t...hikar+%26+Safari&x=0

Ha. I bought one of them yesterday.

***

I think this is the book I read some 20 years ago and couldn't remember whom it was by or titled.

I remember a particularly graphic description of a gaur (seladang) hunt.

They have multiple copies of both of them (along with anything and everything else) on Advanced Book Exchange. I just ordered one of each. It is by far the best place to find books that I have found.

quote:

Not saying some weren't shipped back but I do not believe they were 'extinct' in India. Without good evidence to the contary.

haven't gotten ahold of a SCI book since last post... but, some folks wouldn't believe that...

having an unviable genetic pool, regardless, equates to the same
jeffe

Here is some great reading fella`s and some more links on botom of the page.

http://www.logoi.com/notes/hunting_in_india_wild_bulls.html