I am thinking of offering some self guided DG hunts in the Omay for 2012. What I have in mind is a spike camp in some of the more remote areas where a client can hunt for himself. There will be a licensed Zimbabwe PH present for legal reasons and to help out when necessary.

I know there are several hunters out there that would really enjoy the experience more if they could run the hunt themselves.

Looking for feedback before I post my offer. What do you think?

Martin

Not for me. I like hunting with a PH and am not naive enough to think I know how to hunt DG without his leadership and eye for hazard. Further, I really enjoy the PH's company.

Not a bad idea Martin, but I think a lot of people would be put off if they thought that all the emphasis was on their decisions. I think a halfway house description would be better. At home I always hunt alone and when I first started hunting Africa in took me a couple of trips to settle in to the different mind set where I became the shooter rather than the hunter. I think there will be a lot of people out there who would be interested if they were given the opportunity of a normal hunt set up, but with the option of organising the plan for the day and "playing PH" for the length of time that suited them, be it for half a day or the full safari.
Just my opinion.
Nice to see an outfitter trying to offer something different to the industry.
Good luck with the idea.
Regards
Rob

I think its a great idea Martin - for those up for that!! Looking forward to seeing the offer!!

Please explain to me how the hunt is "self guided" when there is a "licensed Zimbabwe PH present."

Also, since it's "self guided" does the client then only pay the observer rate on the daily fees?

As per the Zimbabwe law, no safari can be conducted without the presence of a licensed PH! The PH will be present but take a back seat and let the client make everyday decisions on what to do, where to go, where and how to bait and what and when to shoot. If the client wants the Ph to step in for whatever reason, then he is right behind him.

Now that is a great idea!!! I have done that a few times with willing PHs who would stand back and let me take the lead after elephant. I would make the decisions on when to track, and I work with the trackers on the approach. I would then for legal reasons confirm that my choice of animal to shot was OK with the PH. The PH didn't back me up unless I asked him to. These were some of the most satisfying hunts I have made. The big but here is that you do need some experience in hunting elephant before you should attempt this. The other negative is that you are not going to be as good as the PH and that may mean you will be less succesful.


465H&H

Is there any price diffential on the daily rates? Is it a little cheaper or cost the same since you still have to have a licensed PH with you at all times?

Hello Martin,

Please can you send me some more details on these hunts as I have a couple of guys interested in doing something like this. I was thinking more along the lines of backpacking and fly camping in a different spot every night, but the details can be ironed out in time. Please can you PM the costs for a tuskless and/or buffalo/plainsgame hunt like this. If we were to backpack as we'd like to, the only real concern I would have is trophy/meat recovery. I assume a vehicle would be available 24/7. What would be the best way to communicate? Handheld radio? What kind of range can you get? Satphone? Is there phone signal at base? Or a base Satphone? I have contacted a couple of operators re this already but no response...They obviously don't need the business. It would have to be done in a vast Zam valley area so we could get really 'lost' you know....

Cheers, I'd appreciate any info you can give me.

Hope you are having a decent season.

David

Very good idea Martin, thats how it should have been working. I dont like to be just the shooter and always enjoy to find a PH willing to take that step back (which is not normal as they have their own legal issues and responsibilities) I dont know how you will work this out, as long as the PH will still be having responsibilities towards his clients hunt, but is a fantastic idea for clients with experience in DG hunts, just be careful clients are really experienced on DG, or your PH might face some bad moments out there.

When I have done this type of hunt, I have always told the PH to please don't let me make any stupid mistakes that would endanger anyone. I think that will be a given on this type of hunt.

465H&H

In theory, it sounds great Martin, especially to those who have a type A personality. In practicality, I have slight, but second thoughts. At what point does one admit we need our PH to take control, make decisions, save our ass? If I paid for this type of hunt yet depended upon my PH to make half the decisions, I'd feel compelled to give him an outstanding tip, above what my normal criteria would be. The experience would be a grand adventure, but I would want my PH to understand up front, "don't sit back and let me endanger us or make a complete ass of myself." I respect you fella's too much to ignore your importance. Would I do it? Me thinks yes. Cheers, David

As far as the PH/client relationship is concerned, everything is open to discussion right? We are all adults, right? How many guys hunt with each other and don't communicate/ask advice of other team members etc. I'd say the PH that doesn't communicate with trackers/client is a tosser anyway...We are all hunting together, one guy doesn't have a plan every time a coconut, no matter how experienced he is. Communication is an integral part of hunting, everyone needs to know what's going on, whatever role they are playing. Often I have heard the PH's I've worked with discussing /formulating a gameplan with the client/trackers...I get kind of confused when I read the reports of the PH who never kept the client informed and so on and so forth, because I don't have much experience of that...So, anyhow, back to the topic - to a certain extent one can decide what role they'd like the PH to play on this type of hunt. Obviously he'll be there anyway, and obviously he'll know not to permit any totally outlandish behavior. If the client wants to do everything himself, so what? The PH will be there, ready to avert anything he feels may spin out of control, or to help knock on the head anything that does spin out of control, so I don't see any problem with this issue. That is what the PH is trained to do in any case. All that may be asked of him in this case scenario is to be a little less of a control freak!

Anyway, I don't see that the role the PH plays or doesn't play as the big factor in this type of hunt. I would think the attraction for most would be the fly camping and/or backpacking aspect and not the self-guiding....I may be wrong, but I think most clients enjoy the contribution and company of the PH's they hunt with.

David

I think you are a very brave PH to let clients 'self guide' themselves even within the structure you outline, in compliance with Zim law.

Two problems.
1)
When I see the number of people on here who need to have their hand held to get through an airport or who bitch and whine because the PH didn't do this or didn't do that, I really believe that the attitude and self reliance needed by the vast majority of clients maybe somewhat lacking. These people pay to be spoon fed an experience.

2)
Bushcraft is a dieing art and while there are people with the time and/or money to get the experience to learn it, I would submit the number who can apply that skill successfully to a hunt in a foreign biome are extremely limited.

It's a great idea but you will end up with confused and disorientated clients having no success or you will need to step in and change the whole thrust of the concept.

As alluded to in an earlier post. There are people looking for this type of hunt. They have the skills and drive already do it themselves, there is no value to them in paying for it and are really only looking for access. This would not make it profitable for you at the level you may currently enjoy.

Hell Martin go for it! I obviously wouldn't be interesed, because I don't have enough experience, never will. But for the boys that do, it would be an awesome experience.

Mad Dog

It's not for me, but as described the niche is too small to market a genuine product profitably. Edit: ... then again it never hurts to advitise, you might pick up one or two clients

Exactly the kind of hunt I would love to do. Not too formal or high end but with the full knowledge that a true professional is managing it.

What would it cost? What about trophy care?

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
It's not for me, but as described the niche is too small to market a genuine product profitably. Edit: ...

I would assume Martin has those aspects under control.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
It's not for me, but as described the niche is too small to market a genuine product profitably. Edit: ...

I would assume Martin has those aspects under control.

As he does concerning the laws..... but glad to see people concerned.

For the right person this could be a great hunt. For me the most important thing would be to have a tracker that could speak English. Being able to plan the day with the tracker like the PH would make a difference.

Some AR memebers did the Cameroon hunts unguided. NO PH and survived. This could be fun with a safety net.

Martin,
I think it's a great idea!!!

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
I would want my PH to understand up front, "don't sit back and let me endanger us or make a complete ass of myself."

Each time we head out on an unguided hunt here in the States aren't we endangering ourselves and taking a risk of "making a complete ass of ourselves"? If you have a PH as back-up I really don't see how this is a lot more dangerous than hunting with the PH in the lead.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
2)
Bushcraft is a dieing art and while there are people with the time and/or money to get the experience to learn it, I would submit the number who can apply that skill successfully to a hunt in a foreign biome are extremely limited.

It's a great idea but you will end up with confused and disorientated clients having no success or you will need to step in and change the whole thrust of the concept.

In the areas I have hunted in Africa there would be little bushcraft needed to kill decent trophies. Yes you will get bigger trophies with a PH leading you along by the hand, but wouldn't you be willing to trade a few inches of horn for the satisfaction of knowing that you hunted the trophy on your own.

Sounds great!

Can I drive the Land Cruiser!!!?

Martin,
a videographer must be included to capture those...priceless moments

Hey Mart sounds like i plan,I would love to come back there and give it a crack I hope it works out and we find out more.cheers

Martin. No PH need be present. But it is either all or nothing. No appie and only the council scout. Your staf can run the camp. A good friend enquired if he could run some elephant hunts in a remote part of his concession on this basis and I did the paperwork. It was quite popular with the South Africans who usually bought in their own trucks and food. He just had to make sure it was a bunch of genuine citizenn hunters and not an SA PH trying to run his own operation in Zim.

I'll gladly help out on the paperwork if anybody is serious

Ok guys I'm just playing devils advocate here. Please don't frag/flame me for this.

I don't think it could be open season for just any client to do a true self guided hunt. There would have to be some critera.

Ganyana. I would submit there is a reasonable amount of difference between some 'okes (good old boys) from RSA coming north for a weeks hunting and letting international clients loose in the Bundu. I mean, the South Africans with an old bedford full of red meat, bread and cheap Brandy is going to provide a great hunt but it's not going to look pretty The difference is that they have probably been shareing hunting camps together for years in roughly the same environment as found north of the border.

JBrown. Good points but what happens when things go wrong ? Where does self guided end and 'that's enough of that' start ?

Naki, surely trophy care would be the responsibility of the client in such a hunt.

Where do you draw the line ?

I personally think it's a disaster waiting to happen with no PH present, regardless of where the clients are from. Hunting tuskless cows in the Omay is far removed from potting rooibok on the game farm outside polokwane...

Thanks for all the input, criticism, comments and advice, I am working on a package and will post soon. Keep it coming!

interesting Idea with some of the details worked out and with the right clients it could work very well. with the wrong client it could go very bad very fast

I believe there are a lot of very capable Aussie hunters who would takeup an offer like this!! especially for buff+plains game...

With no disrespect to hunters anywhere, the list of highly experienced African PH's who have been mauled/gored/tossed/clawed/stomped and so on and so forth is fairly extensive...Most of them lived, some of them died. Most of them were attacked by wounded animals, some of them by unwounded animals. A couple of them were killed outright by unwounded elephants. One of them was a good friend of mine. These guys really knew what they were doing, absolute professionals at the top of their game. They were ready and they were still had. What would happen if the self-guided hunter wounded a buffalo? It would be foolhardy for him to follow up with the tracker and gamescout. Russian Roulette with 5 up, in my opinion. And if he was smart and decided he needed a PH at that time, where would he find one out there in the Omay? Another hunt would have to be put on hold, so a PH could get to the self-guided chap, maybe a full day after the buffalo was wounded....And so on and so forth. No, I would urge anyone who wanted to do this to do it with a PH - just make it clear beforehand how much of a role you want him to play in the tracking or whatever. I could find a PH that would be happy not to say a word the whole hunt, if the hunter wishes. Naturally quiet fellow he is. I would also urge any of you who are interested to give it a go. If you are contemplating this type of hunt, you are the right type of personality to do it and will have a blast. I accompanied a couple of hunts like this in Chewore a while back.

David

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
JBrown. Good points but what happens when things go wrong ? Where does self guided end and 'that's enough of that' start ?

I going to Cameroon in December, so I guess I will find out. But there will be no PH to fall back on.....

This is very interesting. I had a discussion about this with my booking agent recently.

As a practical matter, I do not see how this could work (other than blind luck). If I went to an area that I had never been too before, how is the world am i going to have any idea where to look for buff, elephant, etc. I think the obvious answer is I can't know.

Now, if this was even more of a hybrid, it may work and I would do it. If the PH and staff pointed me to the area where the animals might be found, the I made the decision to follow the tracks or not,which way to approach and which animal to shoot, I would absolutely do it. The PH would be there to (hopefully) stop me from getting hurt should something go wrong badly.

I get a great deal of enjoyment out of participating in the hunt, rather than simply being the shooter.

Guys,

I will be the first to admit that I am not qualified to run my own safari or to make anything but the most benigh decisions about a safari. It doesn't even sound like that much fun to me as I've become very accustomed to the Bwana role and letting the PH and crew figure out basically everything.

I do think that some folks will be all over this idea though. I get enquiries from obviously diluded people that want to do it themselves on a pretty regular basis. I'll be very interested in the Hunt Reports.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

I going to Cameroon in December, so I guess I will find out. But there will be no PH to fall back on.....

Outstanding. Warm barrels eh.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

I get enquiries from obviously diluded people that want to do it themselves on a pretty regular basis.
Mark

Bingo we have a winner. This would have to be the biggest obstacle to success and happy clients.

Martin,

This may be stretch but would be a great month in Zimbabwe.

Attend the Zimbabwe PH training course in September.

As per a previous post by Martin the course is six days would consist of:

COURSES TO COVER:

General knowledge:
Habits and Habitats
Ballistics and firearms
Legislation
First aid
Basic mechanics
Photography

Trophies:
Identification
Measurement

Shooting:
Jungle lane
Target shooting – still
Target shooting - moving
Safety precautions
Marksmanship principles
accuracy and speed.

Camping:
Camp setting
Camp hygiene and control of fires
Catering
Entertainment
Standards of dress


Guiding, hunting, bush craft & game products:
Hunting;
Tracking ability
Spoor and signs id
Attention to wind
Stalking ability
Trophy selection
Safety of clients
Self defence
Weapon handling
Shooting of animal

Baiting of cats;
Choice of site
Siting of blind
Siting and positioning of bait

Guiding;
Identification of animals
Identification of plants
Knowledge of animal and plant habitats
Knowledge of cultural resources in the area
Knowledge of rocks and soils
Spoor and signs identification
Safety of clients
Self defence
Weapon handling
Shooting of animals

Bush craft :
Knowledge of the area
Observance
Endurance
Survival skills

Game products:
Knowledge of skinning and caping
Preservation of trophies and meat
Recovery of ivory
Safekeeping of products
Butchery hygiene
Dispatching products



After the course is complete head to the Omay. 20 days for buffalo and leopard at Hanji would be a blast.

I may be "diluded" but that could be a perfect month.

I was under the impression that only the auction hunts in Zim could be "Self guided" ... frankly, a foreign hunter "Self_Guiding" is almost an oxymoron as you need a vehicle, camp, food, staff etc. ... and the guy who can provide all this may as well be a PH.

You can do a self-guided hunt (chasse libre) in Cameroon and Burkina (the latter I think was discontinued).

In Botswana, you there is no legal req't for a PH on any PG hunt. DG there must be a PH. Even so, I have never heard of a foreign hunter hunting PG on a self-guided basis in Botswana. For one thing, most landowners/concession owners want to be there when the gun goes bang ... any blood and they get paid!

May be splitting hairs but anytime there is a PH in attendance, it's not self-guided.

"on land Hippo" would be a great option for such a hunt in Omay North.