quote:

Originally posted by Unforgetable Hunting:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:
UH,

Now we completely agree!

A gold medal (measured on skin as CIC) is a small bear. Not many hunters understand this. On all other species that we measure trophies on in Europe a gold medal is a very big animal. My only point is that hunters should know that a CIC gold medal bear skin is a small bear.

....it's a small bear for Romania , for Bulgaria ...375 CIC was the biggest

And you can compare with Sweden as well, you will find that Romania have enormously bigger bears in Romania because there is no skin measured bears in Sweden. Even though Sweden have very large bears, but we measure them with the skull. It would be very interesting to see a comparison on skull size on brown bears across the Northern hemisphere. My guess would be that Kodiak, Kamtjakta would be on top followed by Romania. After that I think Russia and other Northern countries as Sweden, Finland and so on.

quote:

Originally posted by Unforgetable Hunting:
Firs of all I want to point out that this is a normal debate ...
I will post some scans from a book with the largest trophy in Europe for Brown bear ....
you will see the difference of trophies around Europe and you will understand why the 300 CIC points limit is considered a gold trophy ....and also you will see what means 300CIC points in Romania

It's not a very recent book but you will get the idea ...






Here you have the biggest CIC scoring on the different countries for bear skin ...so for example in BULGARIA the 375 CIC was the biggest EVER took ( ...at the date of this book )


and now you will see the first 10 in Romania :



Now you will understand that this CIC scoring was made to be an international measurement system
Of course that a 300 CIC points bear in Romania is a medium bear .

...anyway the offer posted here ( see my offer ) are related to CIC points not to "gold / silver or bronze " trophies , so when you come in Romania to hunt a bear and you want an important trophy you must now at least how it looks a 500 CIC points bear ...

love the name holder of most of the records for Romania .... pretty sure the wardens wanted to strech the skin to avoid any issues with the Securitate ...

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

quote:

Originally posted by Unforgetable Hunting:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:
UH,

Now we completely agree!

A gold medal (measured on skin as CIC) is a small bear. Not many hunters understand this. On all other species that we measure trophies on in Europe a gold medal is a very big animal. My only point is that hunters should know that a CIC gold medal bear skin is a small bear.

....it's a small bear for Romania , for Bulgaria ...375 CIC was the biggest

And you can compare with Sweden as well, you will find that Romania have enormously bigger bears in Romania because there is no skin measured bears in Sweden. Even though Sweden have very large bears, but we measure them with the skull. It would be very interesting to see a comparison on skull size on brown bears across the Northern hemisphere. My guess would be that Kodiak, Kamtjakta would be on top followed by Romania. After that I think Russia and other Northern countries as Sweden, Finland and so on.

yes the skull is a nice real to measure a trophy but in my mind the trophy is the eye of the beholder not the centimeters nor the wiegth or the size but that is just me ....

Huge bear, measured on the skull

http://vadaszlap.hu/2015/06/08...ord-medve-erdelybol/

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:

quote:

Originally posted by Unforgetable Hunting:

quote:

Originally posted by P-A Åhlén:
UH,

Now we completely agree!

A gold medal (measured on skin as CIC) is a small bear. Not many hunters understand this. On all other species that we measure trophies on in Europe a gold medal is a very big animal. My only point is that hunters should know that a CIC gold medal bear skin is a small bear.

....it's a small bear for Romania , for Bulgaria ...375 CIC was the biggest

And you can compare with Sweden as well, you will find that Romania have enormously bigger bears in Romania because there is no skin measured bears in Sweden. Even though Sweden have very large bears, but we measure them with the skull. It would be very interesting to see a comparison on skull size on brown bears across the Northern hemisphere. My guess would be that Kodiak, Kamtjakta would be on top followed by Romania. After that I think Russia and other Northern countries as Sweden, Finland and so on.

yes the skull is a nice real to measure a trophy but in my mind the trophy is the eye of the beholder not the centimeters nor the wiegth or the size but that is just me ....

Medved,

On that I totaly agree. The trophy is a memory of a good hunting experience and has not much to do with the size of the animal.

But for me as a wildlife biologist I find trophy lists very useful to understand how different game species develops in different regions/ecosystem and with different management systems. Therefor I think subjective points on beauty and measurement on raw hides (that can not be remeasured after taxidermy) are useless.

quote:

Originally posted by chilcotin hillbilly:
i guess when the statement of 9 to 10 foot bears taken in Romania and the pictures supplied has nothing bigger then a good black bear I would have to say there is a little exaggeration of potential size expectations.
My question is does the outfitter know how much 10 feet is?

Hi Doug
There is no exaggeration on the size expectation of the bear we were discussing at all, and I was very clear that the fact this was an exceptional bear that we had come across.

Given you mentioned the photos posted, you are correct that most are the size of a decentish black bear, but I should point out that Unforgettable Hunting has nothing to do with Athina Sporting or this offer and none of the images are from our outfitter in Romania so I don't want anyone on AR to think that these are the hunts we are representing.

I'm not implying there is anything wrong with the hunts UH offers, I just have not experienced them and so cannot vouch for them.

Rgds,
K

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:

quote:

Originally posted by chilcotin hillbilly:
i guess when the statement of 9 to 10 foot bears taken in Romania and the pictures supplied has nothing bigger then a good black bear I would have to say there is a little exaggeration of potential size expectations.
My question is does the outfitter know how much 10 feet is?

Hi Doug
There is no exaggeration on the size expectation of the bear we were discussing at all, and I was very clear that the fact this was an exceptional bear that we had come across.

Given you mentioned the photos posted, you are correct that most are the size of a decentish black bear, but I should point out that Unforgettable Hunting has nothing to do with Athina Sporting or this offer and none of the images are from our outfitter in Romania so I don't want anyone on AR to think that these are the hunts we are representing.

I'm not implying there is anything wrong with the hunts UH offers, I just have not experienced them and so cannot vouch for them.

Rgds,
K

FB,

Sorry for hijacking your post, did indeed not argue that the bear in the offer wasn't a monster. Romania have huge brown bears, almost as Kodiak and Kamtjaka.

I just wanted to inform of the corrupt CIC skin measure system. Hopefully this skinn measurement will come to an end soon and will be replaced by skull measurements.

/ P-A

PA,

No problem at all.in fact I learnt a few things which is always a good result!!

I just think that when another outfitter posts trophy pics on a hunt offering he is not involved in, it has the scope to confuse and result in the wrong conclusions, or doubt as to the integrity of the offer as per Doug's comment which is why I wanted to clarify the point.

You are right about the size of some of the Bears down there though. It isn't everywhere in Romania that throws up the really big ones but they are there for sure.

K

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:

quote:

Originally posted by chilcotin hillbilly:
i guess when the statement of 9 to 10 foot bears taken in Romania and the pictures supplied has nothing bigger then a good black bear I would have to say there is a little exaggeration of potential size expectations.
My question is does the outfitter know how much 10 feet is?

Hi Doug
There is no exaggeration on the size expectation of the bear we were discussing at all, and I was very clear that the fact this was an exceptional bear that we had come across.

Given you mentioned the photos posted, you are correct that most are the size of a decentish black bear, but I should point out that Unforgettable Hunting has nothing to do with Athina Sporting or this offer and none of the images are from our outfitter in Romania so I don't want anyone on AR to think that these are the hunts we are representing.

I'm not implying there is anything wrong with the hunts UH offers, I just have not experienced them and so cannot vouch for them.

Rgds,
K

Dear F ,

we are only discussing about trophies and the CIC scoring system !!!!

did I made something wrong ?? did I offended you somehow ????

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
PA,

No problem at all.in fact I learnt a few things which is always a good result!!

I just think that when another outfitter posts trophy pics on a hunt offering he is not involved in, it has the scope to confuse and result in the wrong conclusions, or doubt as to the integrity of the offer as per Doug's comment which is why I wanted to clarify the point.

You are right about the size of some of the Bears down there though. It isn't everywhere in Romania that throws up the really big ones but they are there for sure.

K

I just received a new email from Sweden's representative in CIC regarding this skin measuring method. Apparently this method is not popular among the CIC members and it is not ALLOWED within CIC to give international medals based on skin measurement, only national. And most countries do not acknowledge this skin system at all. The system is also based on a fresh skin before it is in the salt, that makes it impossible to get an unbiased measurement on a later stage.

Anyhow, the fact that CIC doesn't allow this for international medals would be enough reason for traveling hunters to not accept a sliding trophy fee based on CIC skin measurement. The skull measurement is a good, fair and transparent system if there is a need for sliding trophy fees.

Personally I prefer hunts with a flat rate were you focus on the total hunting experience rather than the trophy size.

PA

I agree that a consistent method of scoring is important and there are too many variables in skin measurement to use this as a real dependable guide.

Personally I think the most important thing is that a client can relate to the definitions they are given by the outfitter hence length of a bear (skin on) as a guide and skull measurements for official scoring are valid options. At the same time one can only work with what they are given!!

You made an interesting comment about the availability of medal bears on your previous trip and I think that is a real point I have come across out there. I think the medal system doesn't offer the same level of guidance on these animals as perhaps other species. For example a wild gold medal Stag or roe deer is known to be a fab trophy, whereas with these you need more guidance. Our outfitter says that he really needs to guide people to the biggest bears otherwise they end up shooting smaller gold medal bears instead of some of the real bruisers.

Where sliding scales are concerned I also agree I try and avoid them where possible. For example on Spanish Ibex this is often difficult to get away from but what I prefer is to set a price point and establish a trophy quality for that hunt. If the client shoots a bigger animal then that is a bonus. However this is a double edged sword that can back fire.

K

"I think the medal system doesn't offer the same level of guidance on these animals as perhaps other species. For example a wild gold medal Stag or roe deer is known to be a fab trophy, whereas with these you need more guidance"

K[/QUOTE]

Yes, a gold medal should be a BIG animal. If we compare to the Swedish moose population for example. We shoot about 100 000 moose/year here (25% of the worlds annual moose cull is done in Sweden in less than 1% of the species distribution area) and we have all the "world" records on the European subspecies of moose (Alces alces alces). But we only shoot about 30-50 gold medals/year here. Same with roe bucks, Sweden have the world record and we shoot about 150 000 roe deers/year but very few gold medals. A gold medal should be like a 100 lbs a side elephant tusker. This corrupt system makes every weaned (when an animal stops suckle) brown bear to be a medal.

Sexual dimorphism in animals is not just the size. It is an accumulation of phenotypic factors . The bear has a weak sexual dimorphism . You can not distinguish a male from a female . Perhaps in the mating period , when seeing them together you can guess who is male. Regarding the criteria for awarding medals to bear depending on the bear hide , you're right . The same is true for wolves. But to judge by the skull is something irrelevant. The skull does not show you the size of the bear . A bear of about 500-550 points CIC can approach the dimension of the world record skull. As proof, of that year was exceeded national record to bear skull . Personally I would give bronze a bear that is in the range of 350-400 points CIC , silver between 401-450 and gold over 451 points CIC.

Ahlen ,
Award medal for certain trophies require certain changes. But unfortunately human influence on the natural habitat is increasingly common . For example feeding a deer with adequate minerals you can make him a gold trophy in four years . Same with a bear , with complementary food abundance. He still does not reach sexual maturity but may be a very large bear . These things happen when man intervenes in game management . In some countries such as Hungary these things are very probable , terrain, topography allows this to happen . In our country these things are isolated , but many hunters are not interested to hunt the biggest animal or a medal, they want to spent one day in nature, adrenaline, etc...