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Leopard in Limpopo - know what is legal and what not!
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Picture of infinito
posted
Leopard hunting in Limpopo is a big issue. This is one of the big reasons why the hunting industry formed the Limpopo Hunters Liason Forum.

We act as a liason between the government agency that regulates our hunting (LEDET) and are appointed/ellected by the hunting industry. Our representation is per region and I am the Sekhunkune representative serving on the board with 7 other outfitters.

Now, there has been some Leopard hunts posted here before for the Limpopo area by myself and Chris Troskie. Both were legal advertisements.

There was also two by "agents" that either did not know the law, or are very wrongly informed by their friends in Africa.

Please make a note of the following:

1. Every Outfitter in Limpopo is allowed ONLY 1 Leopard Tag per year.
2. Every hunting company is allowed a maximum of two tags per year, it does not matter HOW many outfitters form part of that company.
3. If a hunt is unsuccesful then the tag goes to people that was drawn on a waiting list!
4. An outfitter must supply the details of his hunter, and a renumeration agreement to LEDET before or on 30 March of every year. Failure to do so will result in the tag being passed onto the waiting list.
5. A non refundable fee of R5,000.00 must go to the LHLF training fund, and the tag fee is about R1,600.00 Total of about $1,000.00. This paid when you apply for your tag.
6. The land where the hunt will be conducted must be 1,000ha (2,500 acres) or bigger, and the Leopard may not be hunted outside the allocated piece of land. So, if you do a Leopard hunt with your PH and you are driving to various properties baiting every where, even with the owners persmission....it is ILLEGAL.
7. You are only allowed to kill the Leopard on the land the permit is issued on.
8. You may shoot the cat with a any rifle you please, and it seems even a .22 Hornet is legal. (post edited on the advise of Mr. Chris Totskie)

These are just some of the things, and the list is long. These are also the things that you, as an agent or client, must be informed about.

There is no way that 1 outfitter hunted 3 Leopards legaly and now advertising a fourth. It is illegal.

A lot these things sounds stupid to the uninformed, and hey, most of it is stupid (like the min. calibre rule) but it is still the law!

Any inquiries can be directed to me. Replies will be a bit slow, as I'm hunting at the moment.


Charl van Rooyen
Owner
Infinito Travel Group
www.infinito-safaris.com
charl@infinito-safaris.com
Cell: +27 78 444 7661
Tel: +27 13 262 4077
Fax:+27 13 262 3845
Hereford Street 28A
Groblersdal
0470
Limpopo
R.S.A.

"For the Infinite adventure"

Plains Game
Dangerous Game
Bucket List Specialists
Wing-Shooting
In House Taxidermy Studio
In House Dip and Pack Facility
In House Shipping Service
Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris
Flight bookings

"I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?"



South Africa
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Posts: 2014 | Location: South Africa,Tanzania & Uganda | Registered: 15 August 2006Reply With Quote
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Charl,

Thank you for posting this information.


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Posts: 66923 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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tu2 Excellant Post!



 
Posts: 1525 | Location: Iowa | Registered: 08 August 2008Reply With Quote
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Folks - As some of you, I too have hunted the Limpopo. I also have a fantastic Leopard outfitter in the Limpopo region, but getting in with him is VERY difficult, for the exact same reasons listed by Charl above. But man does he shoot some big cats!

Fact is, this problem goes way beyond legalized Limpopo Leopard Hunting! Part of the problem as I see it is, in the past 10 years, "booking agents" have sprung up like weeds. Frankly, the majority of them have no more field time or "experience" than the average hunter, and often times less. Many of them have never hunted with the outfitters they represent, or at least have been to the hunt location for some personal experience. They know little about the laws, rules, or regulations, and they have no personal relationship with the outfitter, thus they really have no idea if what they're being told by the outfitter is factual or NOT? Lastly, and most importantly, they have no more experience hunting that particular animal/specie as the guy trying to buy the hunt????

I can't tell you how many times I've seen hunts listed for sale here on AR, or elsewhere, that I knew were bogus, or offered by someone who obviously had no idea what in the heck they were offering for sale. Unfortunately its entirely too frequent now-adays, as every dude that's been on 3 hunts is a darn "booking agent".

I get contacted by outfitters all the time, just as I am sure other agents do too. But yet my list of available hunts is not as large as some, simply because I subscribe to a much different philosophy than some others. Without PERSONAL, on the ground/field experience with each particular operator, I rarely will consider selling their hunts. I make an occasional expection, but generally under one of two circumstances. First, either I have a trusted friend/client who's hunted with them (But I still must have GOOD knowledge of the area/type of hunt, etc) or its an outfitter that I have hunted with and book for currently, but maybe he picks up a new area. Obviously if I trust him, I'm gonna trust what he tells me about his new area. But I still must have knowledge of the area, type of hunts, etc, or I simply won't sell it.

I've spent a small fortune and loads of time, personally hunting Alaska 7-8 times, all across Canada 7-8 times, guiding and hunting alot of the lower 48, guided/hunted in Mexico, hunted Africa 25+ times, South America, Asia and the south Pacific too. But you don't see hunts to "Spain" for example on my website, cause I ain't never been there, period! How in the heck do you honestly and thoroughly sell a hunt to a place you've never been, or with a PH/outfitter that you have no personal or trustworthy experience with either? Got me, but I see it all the time!

Honestly, I think a good "Agent" is more valuable than all the internet searching, or talking to individual outfitters, you could ever do. But pick a reputable, EXPERIENCED one, who's been there - done that! If not, you're just part of the "blind leading the blind" process.

If you're looking for a good, reliable, trustworthy agent, consider these folks and you likely can't go wrong. My suggestions are not limited only to the list below, but this is a start.

1. Hunters Quest - Wendell Reich
2. The Hunting Consortium - Bob Kern
3. Jeff C. Neal - Greg Brownlee & Jeff Neal
4. Atcheson & Sons - Jack Jr./Keith
5. Safari Classics - Tim & Dave
6. Mark Young - ACST


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4884 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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You should come to spain. Good hunting, good fun;-)


diego
 
Posts: 645 | Location: madrid spain | Registered: 31 October 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarf416:
You should come to spain. Good hunting, good fun;-)


Yes sir, would love to. Just haven't got around to it yet!


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4884 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of ChrisTroskie
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quote:
Originally posted by infinito:

8. You must shoot the cat with a .375 or bigger calibre..


Charl, good info... Can you direct me to the Ordinance / Reg that covers this please?


Regards,

Chris Troskie
Tel. +27 82 859-0771
email. chris@ct-safaris.com
Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA
www.ct-safaris.com
https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Sabrisa Ranch Limpopo Province - South Africa | Registered: 03 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Dear Infinito

Thanks very much for the great information.

To save us lots of time would you mind just listing the leopard outfitter that are approved.

Have been considering such a hunt. But every one can get me a Leopard. Being an Aussie and not able to export the cat just helped with the cover up.

Thanks in advance for the list.
Mark
 
Posts: 376 | Location: Australia | Registered: 22 June 2010Reply With Quote
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Picture of infinito
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
quote:
Originally posted by infinito:

8. You must shoot the cat with a .375 or bigger calibre..


Charl, good info... Can you direct me to the Ordinance / Reg that covers this please?


Chris, it is covered by the LEMA act. Also it was circulated to all applicants and annexed to your permit. It was also published on the PHASA web-site and circulated to all members by mass mail. I do not have time to go and search on the internet for it, but the NEW rules and regulations was well covered and advertised. The LHLF annual meeting is open to all, and we look forward at seeing you there!


Charl van Rooyen
Owner
Infinito Travel Group
www.infinito-safaris.com
charl@infinito-safaris.com
Cell: +27 78 444 7661
Tel: +27 13 262 4077
Fax:+27 13 262 3845
Hereford Street 28A
Groblersdal
0470
Limpopo
R.S.A.

"For the Infinite adventure"

Plains Game
Dangerous Game
Bucket List Specialists
Wing-Shooting
In House Taxidermy Studio
In House Dip and Pack Facility
In House Shipping Service
Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris
Flight bookings

"I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?"



South Africa
Tanzania
Uganda
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: South Africa,Tanzania & Uganda | Registered: 15 August 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by infinito:

Chris, it is covered by the LEMA act. Also it was circulated to all applicants and annexed to your permit. It was also published on the PHASA web-site and circulated to all members by mass mail. I do not have time to go and search on the internet for it, but the NEW rules and regulations was well covered and advertised. The LHLF annual meeting is open to all, and we look forward at seeing you there!


Charl, neither my permit nor the annexures I received make any reference to minimum caliber requirements... And the info I received after contacting Johan Bosch (who I understand is/was the Chairman of the LHF) was that there is no legislation pertaining to minimum calibers for Leopard.

The only reason for asking you about this was to get clarity on the issue and the fact that you volunteered answering any questions in this regard.

Seeing you appear to be so knowledgable as far as this issue is concerned I thought you might be the best person to ask... Didn't expect you to search the internet for answers - that I could've done myself... Wink


Regards,

Chris Troskie
Tel. +27 82 859-0771
email. chris@ct-safaris.com
Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA
www.ct-safaris.com
https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Sabrisa Ranch Limpopo Province - South Africa | Registered: 03 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Doesn't make sense that the .375 would be a minimum caliber. The .223 in capable hands will work just fine. Seems to me that a .270 caliber would be more appropriate just as the minimum. I do realize that some may feel the large bores enhance their killing ability but it doesn't make up for poor shot placement or lack of shooting ability in large caliber rifles? I'm puzzled by that minimum. Confused


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Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running......

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Posts: 6804 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 18 December 2006Reply With Quote
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it seems that in a lot of African countries, the minimum caliber for dangerous game is .375- and leopard is considered dangerous game, even though it obviously doesn't require such firepower.


Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
 
Posts: 13139 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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Chris,

Thanks for the reply.

Let me tell you first WHY I direct my reply below as I did. So that there is no misunderstanding.

You are an Outfitter in Limpopo, and as always know everything. As an outfitter you are registered under the LEMA Act, and of course know the content of this Act by heart, as you sat the exam. If David, or any other person that might be uninformed asked this question, I would have handled it differently, and directed them to the specific legislation. Thus I have to ask myself.....WHY did Chris ask this question? The answer is simple, you are AGAIN trying to stir something......

I tried to clear a couple of things up. As always with me posting something, you just HAVE to go and post something that MIGHT put what I say into dispute.



All of us know that .375 is the min calibre for legal use on Dangerous Game in ALL the provinces in South Africa. Leopard is included in this catergory. I do not agree with this, but then again I do not make the rules. Which clause and which article or sub article of the LEMA act states this is something I REALY am not going to look for now. I will call Johan in the morning to hear why he advised you otherwise? If you are proven to be right, I will eat humble pie and apologise.

Also, yes I make it my work to know what is going on as far as the legal requirements go to the hunting in the areas I hunt. And yes, I will inform the public if I see something that is not right. I asked for info to be directed to me by uninformed people, but you are NOT considered uninformed.

Futher, I stated serving on the LHLF simply to establish my credentials. Remember it is our own time and money that we spent to make sure that YOU the outfitter gets represented at LEDET. Willie Roux is going to represent our district this following year.

Johan served last year and now Stephen Barber is the chairman.

Call me back next time I leave a voicemail on your phone. I might be in Ellisras in a couple of weeks and would like to meet up and discuss a couple of things.

Maybe you just like to wind me up when ever I post on AR...maybe not? What I can promise you from today onwards, that I will not reply to anything you post about me or my business in future, ever. IT does not matter what clever, provoking answers you come up with!


Charl van Rooyen
Owner
Infinito Travel Group
www.infinito-safaris.com
charl@infinito-safaris.com
Cell: +27 78 444 7661
Tel: +27 13 262 4077
Fax:+27 13 262 3845
Hereford Street 28A
Groblersdal
0470
Limpopo
R.S.A.

"For the Infinite adventure"

Plains Game
Dangerous Game
Bucket List Specialists
Wing-Shooting
In House Taxidermy Studio
In House Dip and Pack Facility
In House Shipping Service
Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris
Flight bookings

"I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?"



South Africa
Tanzania
Uganda
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: South Africa,Tanzania & Uganda | Registered: 15 August 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of ChrisTroskie
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quote:
Originally posted by infinito:

I tried to clear a couple of things up....


I appreciate this - so please "clear up" your statement that .375 is the minimum caliber for leopard in Limpopo. Stating that the LEMA act covers this without a relevant quote or referral to the applicable clause / section unfortunately does not clear anything up.

Quite frankly; I do not understand your hostile response. I was not being controversial nor was I trying to "stir" anything. I merely asked a valid question - based on a statement that was publically made by you.

I did not claim to "know everything"... (BTW I did not say that a .375 is NOT the minimum caliber)... On the contrary; I evidently DON'T know everything and this is why I asked a very legitimate question to someone who apparently does know the answer.

Ultimately:

My question is a fair one: "What piece of legislation covers the minimum caliber for hunting Leopard in Limpopo?" And an answer to the effect of: "Everyone knows this" or "It is covered by the LEMA Act" unfortunately does not clarify the situation. You're the lawyer - you should know this... And whether my name is David, Paul or Charles is irrelevant. My name is Chris and I apparently don't know. So please just answer the question... if not for me - for the sake of the David's, Paul's and Charles's out there who may also be as misinformed as what I am...

When you're in Ellisras, head out on the Thabazimbi Road for 10km's until you find Molalatau. Pass the entrance and then look out for my sign on the left. Turn left onto the dirt road and continue for 8km's. This is where you'll find me. I'm available between Sept 6th and Sept 12th.


Regards,

Chris Troskie
Tel. +27 82 859-0771
email. chris@ct-safaris.com
Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA
www.ct-safaris.com
https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Sabrisa Ranch Limpopo Province - South Africa | Registered: 03 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Dear Infinito

Once again thanks for the good report.
I would have never known this if you had not posted.

Please provide the approved outfitters.
If you do not want to post then please email me.
mark.mclean@rocketmail.com

Thanks Mark


quote:
Have been considering such a hunt. But every one can get me a Leopard. Being an Aussie and not able to export the cat just helped with the cover up.

Thanks in advance for the list.
Mark
 
Posts: 376 | Location: Australia | Registered: 22 June 2010Reply With Quote
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Sir,

IT is a pitty but it was decided at the meeting after the draw that the names will NOT be made available to the public without the prior written consent of the Outfitter. We wanted to post the names of everyone on the PHASA web-site, but on legal advise we decided not to.

If I recall correctly there are 50Tags issued.

If you provide me with a name I should be able to find out if that person got a tag or not?


Charl van Rooyen
Owner
Infinito Travel Group
www.infinito-safaris.com
charl@infinito-safaris.com
Cell: +27 78 444 7661
Tel: +27 13 262 4077
Fax:+27 13 262 3845
Hereford Street 28A
Groblersdal
0470
Limpopo
R.S.A.

"For the Infinite adventure"

Plains Game
Dangerous Game
Bucket List Specialists
Wing-Shooting
In House Taxidermy Studio
In House Dip and Pack Facility
In House Shipping Service
Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris
Flight bookings

"I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?"



South Africa
Tanzania
Uganda
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: South Africa,Tanzania & Uganda | Registered: 15 August 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of 505 gibbs
posted Hide Post
quote:
If you provide me with a name I should be able to find out if that person got a tag or not?

Scott Van Zyl @ SS ProSafaris, how many tags?
http://forums.accuratereloadin...2100588/m/6391006061
 
Posts: 5179 | Registered: 30 July 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of ChrisTroskie
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by infinito:
Sir,

IT is a pitty but it was decided at the meeting after the draw that the names will NOT be made available to the public without the prior written consent of the Outfitter. We wanted to post the names of everyone on the PHASA web-site, but on legal advise we decided not to.

If I recall correctly there are 50Tags issued.

If you provide me with a name I should be able to find out if that person got a tag or not?


Saved for posterity


Regards,

Chris Troskie
Tel. +27 82 859-0771
email. chris@ct-safaris.com
Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA
www.ct-safaris.com
https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Sabrisa Ranch Limpopo Province - South Africa | Registered: 03 November 2005Reply With Quote
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8 No. 23326 GOVERNMENT GAZETTE, 27 MAY 2011
Chapter 2

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR HUNTING METHODS

Minimum Bullet Weights for Rifle Hunting:

4. (1) The minimum bullet weights for rifle hunting for the respective categories of wild and alien animals are the following...

(e) 9.9 g. (150gr.) bullet for hunting furred game larger than the species contemplated in sub paragraph (1)(d), up to and including the size of blue wildebeest, kudu, gemsbuck, sable, roan and leopard;...

Not sure where the .375 comes into this... Confused


Regards,

Chris Troskie
Tel. +27 82 859-0771
email. chris@ct-safaris.com
Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA
www.ct-safaris.com
https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Sabrisa Ranch Limpopo Province - South Africa | Registered: 03 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Safari-Hunt
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quote:
Originally posted by ARWL:
I may have missed a post as a I've been away. If so, I apologise. These have now been published in the Govt Gazette of 27 May, but as I understand it the date of commencement is still to be determined.
I hope that a great deal changes before then.

Not that I am qualified to provide an opinion, but as I read them...

Bullet weights and not caliber are now applicable to various categories of game

>35gr min up to rock hyrax ("dassie"), all rodents and feathered game - this implies no 32 or 33gr 22 LR, .17's and air rifles!
>50gr for gamer up to the size of springbok (so no 45gr Hornet for any on the tiny antelope.
>100gr thereafter up to impala, warthog, blesbuck, common reedbuck and nyala ewes (so don't bring 85gr TSX, 90gr Scirrocos or 85gr Hornady IB etc for your 243?!)
>130gr thereafter up to Black Wildebeest, Tsessebe, Nyala Bulls and hartebeest (so no 120gr 6.5's and where exactly do the .25's and 6.5mm's fit now anyway!)
>150gr thereafter up to Blue Wildebeest, Kudu, Gemsbok, Sable, Roan and Leopard.
>175gr up to Eland (excl lion and buff)
>250gr for larger up to buff and giraffe (meaning 250gr .33's and .35's would be legal?)
>300gr for larger - i.e. hippo and elephant (so 286gr 9.3 is illegal?!)
>For thick skinned game solids or monometal only - so as per their definition, croc, buff and hippo require solids (including buff in herds etc!?)

For handgun hunting the jump is from 35gr right up to 150gr! If you have a 270 Win handgun, and Encore or XP or JDJ shooting anything lighter than 150gr you can't hunt anything larger than rock hyrax!! The Springbok category is not referred to and the next jump is to 250gr for lion, buff, giraffe and 300gr for larger and including elephant, rhino and hippo.

Crazy stuff!

There are bow hunting requirements too which I cannot analyse as I know nothing about it (although it seems that the guys who drafter this knew little about hutnign with rifles and handguns too...


Above taken from much older post on the subject.

Government Gazette

Following the link and reading the whole gazette you will also see that the minister still have to decide on a date when these norms and standards will commence so we are working on the current laws at the moment which require .375 minimum unless you have direct contact with the minister who told you which date he decided on.


Frederik Cocquyt
I always try to use enough gun but then sometimes a brainshot works just as good.
 
Posts: 2548 | Location: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa | Registered: 06 May 2002Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
8 No. 23326 GOVERNMENT GAZETTE, 27 MAY 2011
Chapter 2

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR HUNTING METHODS

Minimum Bullet Weights for Rifle Hunting:

4. (1) The minimum bullet weights for rifle hunting for the respective categories of wild and alien animals are the following...

(e) 9.9 g. (150gr.) bullet for hunting furred game larger than the species contemplated in sub paragraph (1)(d), up to and including the size of blue wildebeest, kudu, gemsbuck, sable, roan and leopard;...

Not sure where the .375 comes into this... Confused


Saved for posterity


Frederik Cocquyt
I always try to use enough gun but then sometimes a brainshot works just as good.
 
Posts: 2548 | Location: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa | Registered: 06 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of infinito
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
If you provide me with a name I should be able to find out if that person got a tag or not?

Scott Van Zyl @ SS ProSafaris, how many tags?
http://forums.accuratereloadin...2100588/m/6391006061


1 Tag to Scott van Zyl


Charl van Rooyen
Owner
Infinito Travel Group
www.infinito-safaris.com
charl@infinito-safaris.com
Cell: +27 78 444 7661
Tel: +27 13 262 4077
Fax:+27 13 262 3845
Hereford Street 28A
Groblersdal
0470
Limpopo
R.S.A.

"For the Infinite adventure"

Plains Game
Dangerous Game
Bucket List Specialists
Wing-Shooting
In House Taxidermy Studio
In House Dip and Pack Facility
In House Shipping Service
Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris
Flight bookings

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Uganda
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: South Africa,Tanzania & Uganda | Registered: 15 August 2006Reply With Quote
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I'll look into this calibre issue for us. The new norms and standards were only gazetted, it is not yet implemented.


Charl van Rooyen
Owner
Infinito Travel Group
www.infinito-safaris.com
charl@infinito-safaris.com
Cell: +27 78 444 7661
Tel: +27 13 262 4077
Fax:+27 13 262 3845
Hereford Street 28A
Groblersdal
0470
Limpopo
R.S.A.

"For the Infinite adventure"

Plains Game
Dangerous Game
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Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris
Flight bookings

"I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?"



South Africa
Tanzania
Uganda
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: South Africa,Tanzania & Uganda | Registered: 15 August 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
quote:
Originally posted by ARWL:
I may have missed a post as a I've been away. If so, I apologise. These have now been published in the Govt Gazette of 27 May, but as I understand it the date of commencement is still to be determined.
I hope that a great deal changes before then.

Not that I am qualified to provide an opinion, but as I read them...

Bullet weights and not caliber are now applicable to various categories of game

>35gr min up to rock hyrax ("dassie"), all rodents and feathered game - this implies no 32 or 33gr 22 LR, .17's and air rifles!
>50gr for gamer up to the size of springbok (so no 45gr Hornet for any on the tiny antelope.
>100gr thereafter up to impala, warthog, blesbuck, common reedbuck and nyala ewes (so don't bring 85gr TSX, 90gr Scirrocos or 85gr Hornady IB etc for your 243?!)
>130gr thereafter up to Black Wildebeest, Tsessebe, Nyala Bulls and hartebeest (so no 120gr 6.5's and where exactly do the .25's and 6.5mm's fit now anyway!)
>150gr thereafter up to Blue Wildebeest, Kudu, Gemsbok, Sable, Roan and Leopard.
>175gr up to Eland (excl lion and buff)
>250gr for larger up to buff and giraffe (meaning 250gr .33's and .35's would be legal?)
>300gr for larger - i.e. hippo and elephant (so 286gr 9.3 is illegal?!)
>For thick skinned game solids or monometal only - so as per their definition, croc, buff and hippo require solids (including buff in herds etc!?)

For handgun hunting the jump is from 35gr right up to 150gr! If you have a 270 Win handgun, and Encore or XP or JDJ shooting anything lighter than 150gr you can't hunt anything larger than rock hyrax!! The Springbok category is not referred to and the next jump is to 250gr for lion, buff, giraffe and 300gr for larger and including elephant, rhino and hippo.

Crazy stuff!

There are bow hunting requirements too which I cannot analyse as I know nothing about it (although it seems that the guys who drafter this knew little about hutnign with rifles and handguns too...


Above taken from much older post on the subject.

Government Gazette

Following the link and reading the whole gazette you will also see that the minister still have to decide on a date when these norms and standards will commence so we are working on the current laws at the moment which require .375 minimum unless you have direct contact with the minister who told you which date he decided on.


Hi Frederik,

Seeing you are working on the current laws at the moment maybe you could direct me to the relevant Act / Ordinance / Reg / Sub Reg that states a .375 is the minimum caliber for Leopard in Limpopo...

BTW I do not have direct contact with the minister.


Regards,

Chris Troskie
Tel. +27 82 859-0771
email. chris@ct-safaris.com
Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA
www.ct-safaris.com
https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Sabrisa Ranch Limpopo Province - South Africa | Registered: 03 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Oh for heavens sake Chris Troskie!!! You are not adding any value by acting like a spoilt child here. For the sake of everybody, just can it. If you have nothing to add, don't.

There, my first post. After 6 years!
 
Posts: 1 | Registered: 04 August 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
1 Tag to Scott van Zyl

So the 2nd tag he advertised on this forum is illegal?
 
Posts: 5179 | Registered: 30 July 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by W i l l i a m:
Oh for heavens sake Chris Troskie!!! You are not adding any value by acting like a spoilt child here. For the sake of everybody, just can it. If you have nothing to add, don't.

There, my first post. After 6 years!


Sir, in this instance the purpose of my post was not to add value. On the contrary - I was attempting to gain value from Mr van Rooyen's original post.

I was never trying to be controversial. I asked the question purely because I am interested in knowing what Law, Ordinance or Regulation covers the minimum legal caliber for hunting leopard in the Limpopo Province of South Africa.

For the record: I started researching this topic in January 2011...

Parties approached for information in this regard include:


PHASA (Who told me that I should get in touch with their CEO which was not available at the time as she was attending conventions in the USA)

LEDET (Formerly known as Limpopo Nature Conservation who could not provide me with an answer).

The Chairman of the LHLF (Who referred me to the Director of a prominent South African Professional Hunting Academy).

The Director of the relevant PH Hunting Academy...

According to the Director of the Academy there is no legislation that prescribes a minimum caliber for Leopard in Limpopo... Mr van Rooyen's post claims otherwise and I am therefore interested to know what piece of legislation he is referring to.

Now to be fair:

To date - no one (Mr van Rooyen included) has submitted any detail with regards to the specific legislation that covers this subject. I am not saying that such legislation does not exist. I am merely asking for detail in this regard as it affects my business.

Points to consider:

It was claimed that the so-called LEMA Act covers this... Later - in private correspondence from Mr van Rooyen he stated that he is not sure if the LEMA Act actually covers this but he is "sure" that the "Old Ordinance" covered it. I have perused the Ordinance and could not find anything pertainig to this issue. Mr van Rooyen further stated to me privately that same Director of the PH Academy whom I had referred to before is "looking into the legal aspects of leopard hunting and minimum calibers". Quite frankly this confuses me... Why would the same Director who gave me a clear answer at first now have to investigate the matter?

Reference was made by Mr van Rooyen to the "New Rules and Regulations being well covered and advertised. In all honesty; I do not know to which new rules he was referring to. Maybe he can clarify this for us?

Mr van Rooyen stated as follows in one of his posts:

Sir,IT is a pitty but it was decided at the meeting after the draw that the names will NOT be made available to the public without the prior written consent of the Outfitter. We wanted to post the names of everyone on the PHASA web-site, but on legal advise we decided not to.

If I recall correctly there are 50Tags issued.

If you provide me with a name I should be able to find out if that person got a tag or not?


In my opinion he is contradicting himself in his very own post. First he says that it was decided names will not be made available and later in the same post he invites another poster to provide him with a name and he will find out if the relevant Outfitter has a tag Confused

Even later he confirms that Mr. van Zyl has / had one tag... I assume he had written permission from Mr van Zyl to publish these details...

Furthermore; in direct contradiction to the above post Mr van Rooyen advertised loud and clear on this forum that both he and I had drawn leopard tags for 2011. I assure you that he most certainly did not have my permission (written or orally) to make any information regarding my leopard tag public.

At the end of the day all I am searching for are the real facts i.e. "Are there presently any laws / rules that cover a minimum caliber for leopard hunting with a rifle?" And if there are, where can they be found?

Mr van Rooyen has now stated on various occasions that he knows the facts. I therefore call on him to provide us all with the facts.

This would most certainly add value to the discussion at hand.


Regards,

Chris Troskie
Tel. +27 82 859-0771
email. chris@ct-safaris.com
Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA
www.ct-safaris.com
https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Sabrisa Ranch Limpopo Province - South Africa | Registered: 03 November 2005Reply With Quote
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LAdies and Gentleman,

As I said, I would eat humble pie if I was wrong.

The truth is no one knows, as the old ordinance covers the use of the .375 as the min calibre for DG. Apparently it is not covered in the new LEMA act as it was in the old ordinance.

I have spoken to LEDET (the gov. agency) and they do not know. I do not have the act in e-format and simply do not have the time to look for it. It was made to clear to me by another board member that we may now use smaller calibres for Leopard, and if a .22Hornet is your weapon of choice then thats alrright also.

Chris, my formal apology on the weapons issue herewith offered.

My point I wanted to make, was that you could have contacted me on a private basis as a colleuge, if you had a problem. But you like to grill me in public. Every time. So well done mate! Another mark behind your name!

As far as publishing of names go. Go ahead and sue me. It is public notice, and it was a public draw, one which I attended on 23 December, and drew 75% of the numbers out of the box myself in front of 5 other commity members and 5 NAture Conservation officer.

I still do not understand why the committee decided not to make the names public on the PHASA web-site.

I was contacted by numerous other outfitters in private about the advertisement of Scotts Leopard. I responded that I will NOT come out and try and smear him, but I will answer questions if they are asked.

I was asked and answered.

As I said, you want to take this futher, please go ahead. If some one advertises an illegal hunt, even if it is through an intimediary, it should be addressed.

Do you think this is right or wrong? Never mind, please do not answer THAT!

Cheers boys, I'm off to hunt for 7 weeks in Mozambique!


Charl van Rooyen
Owner
Infinito Travel Group
www.infinito-safaris.com
charl@infinito-safaris.com
Cell: +27 78 444 7661
Tel: +27 13 262 4077
Fax:+27 13 262 3845
Hereford Street 28A
Groblersdal
0470
Limpopo
R.S.A.

"For the Infinite adventure"

Plains Game
Dangerous Game
Bucket List Specialists
Wing-Shooting
In House Taxidermy Studio
In House Dip and Pack Facility
In House Shipping Service
Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris
Flight bookings

"I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?"



South Africa
Tanzania
Uganda
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: South Africa,Tanzania & Uganda | Registered: 15 August 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of infinito
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
1 Tag to Scott van Zyl

So the 2nd tag he advertised on this forum is illegal?


They can have two per company if there are two outfitters that are directors/members of the legal body they operate out of. LEDET limits us to two permits per company. No one should be able to get a third permit.


Charl van Rooyen
Owner
Infinito Travel Group
www.infinito-safaris.com
charl@infinito-safaris.com
Cell: +27 78 444 7661
Tel: +27 13 262 4077
Fax:+27 13 262 3845
Hereford Street 28A
Groblersdal
0470
Limpopo
R.S.A.

"For the Infinite adventure"

Plains Game
Dangerous Game
Bucket List Specialists
Wing-Shooting
In House Taxidermy Studio
In House Dip and Pack Facility
In House Shipping Service
Non-Hunting Tours and Safaris
Flight bookings

"I promise every hunter visiting us our personal attention from the moment we meet you, until your trophies hang on your wall. Our all inclusive service chain means you work with one person (me) taking responsibility during the whole process. Affordable and reputable Hunting Safaris is our game! With a our all inclusive door to door service, who else do you want to have fun with?"



South Africa
Tanzania
Uganda
 
Posts: 2014 | Location: South Africa,Tanzania & Uganda | Registered: 15 August 2006Reply With Quote
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Posts: 2270 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 28 February 2007Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by infinito:
LAdies and Gentleman,

As I said, I would eat humble pie if I was wrong.

The truth is no one knows, as the old ordinance covers the use of the .375 as the min calibre for DG. Apparently it is not covered in the new LEMA act as it was in the old ordinance.

I have spoken to LEDET (the gov. agency) and they do not know. I do not have the act in e-format and simply do not have the time to look for it. It was made to clear to me by another board member that we may now use smaller calibres for Leopard, and if a .22Hornet is your weapon of choice then thats alrright also.

Chris, my formal apology on the weapons issue herewith offered.

My point I wanted to make, was that you could have contacted me on a private basis as a colleuge, if you had a problem. But you like to grill me in public. Every time. So well done mate! Another mark behind your name!

As far as publishing of names go. Go ahead and sue me. It is public notice, and it was a public draw, one which I attended on 23 December, and drew 75% of the numbers out of the box myself in front of 5 other commity members and 5 NAture Conservation officer.

I still do not understand why the committee decided not to make the names public on the PHASA web-site.

I was contacted by numerous other outfitters in private about the advertisement of Scotts Leopard. I responded that I will NOT come out and try and smear him, but I will answer questions if they are asked.

I was asked and answered.

As I said, you want to take this futher, please go ahead. If some one advertises an illegal hunt, even if it is through an intimediary, it should be addressed.

Do you think this is right or wrong? Never mind, please do not answer THAT!

Cheers boys, I'm off to hunt for 7 weeks in Mozambique!


Thanks for clarifying this. Never meant to grill anyone - was only asking for detail...

And if this leaves "another mark" on my name - so be it.


Regards,

Chris Troskie
Tel. +27 82 859-0771
email. chris@ct-safaris.com
Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA
www.ct-safaris.com
https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Sabrisa Ranch Limpopo Province - South Africa | Registered: 03 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Aaron,
Please do not take this as an attack, questioning the validity of your post or any other possible negative inference. How many trips to africa had you taken prior to booking safaris there?

I met you in Dallas and actually walked away thinking " this guy is a professional and genuine" and thanks for the DVD.

Best,
Rob



quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Folks - As some of you, I too have hunted the Limpopo. I also have a fantastic Leopard outfitter in the Limpopo region, but getting in with him is VERY difficult, for the exact same reasons listed by Charl above. But man does he shoot some big cats!

Fact is, this problem goes way beyond legalized Limpopo Leopard Hunting! Part of the problem as I see it is, in the past 10 years, "booking agents" have sprung up like weeds. Frankly, the majority of them have no more field time or "experience" than the average hunter, and often times less. Many of them have never hunted with the outfitters they represent, or at least have been to the hunt location for some personal experience. They know little about the laws, rules, or regulations, and they have no personal relationship with the outfitter, thus they really have no idea if what they're being told by the outfitter is factual or NOT? Lastly, and most importantly, they have no more experience hunting that particular animal/specie as the guy trying to buy the hunt????

I can't tell you how many times I've seen hunts listed for sale here on AR, or elsewhere, that I knew were bogus, or offered by someone who obviously had no idea what in the heck they were offering for sale. Unfortunately its entirely too frequent now-adays, as every dude that's been on 3 hunts is a darn "booking agent".

I get contacted by outfitters all the time, just as I am sure other agents do too. But yet my list of available hunts is not as large as some, simply because I subscribe to a much different philosophy than some others. Without PERSONAL, on the ground/field experience with each particular operator, I rarely will consider selling their hunts. I make an occasional expection, but generally under one of two circumstances. First, either I have a trusted friend/client who's hunted with them (But I still must have GOOD knowledge of the area/type of hunt, etc) or its an outfitter that I have hunted with and book for currently, but maybe he picks up a new area. Obviously if I trust him, I'm gonna trust what he tells me about his new area. But I still must have knowledge of the area, type of hunts, etc, or I simply won't sell it.

I've spent a small fortune and loads of time, personally hunting Alaska 7-8 times, all across Canada 7-8 times, guiding and hunting alot of the lower 48, guided/hunted in Mexico, hunted Africa 25+ times, South America, Asia and the south Pacific too. But you don't see hunts to "Spain" for example on my website, cause I ain't never been there, period! How in the heck do you honestly and thoroughly sell a hunt to a place you've never been, or with a PH/outfitter that you have no personal or trustworthy experience with either? Got me, but I see it all the time!

Honestly, I think a good "Agent" is more valuable than all the internet searching, or talking to individual outfitters, you could ever do. But pick a reputable, EXPERIENCED one, who's been there - done that! If not, you're just part of the "blind leading the blind" process.

If you're looking for a good, reliable, trustworthy agent, consider these folks and you likely can't go wrong. My suggestions are not limited only to the list below, but this is a start.

1. Hunters Quest - Wendell Reich
2. The Hunting Consortium - Bob Kern
3. Jeff C. Neal - Greg Brownlee & Jeff Neal
4. Atcheson & Sons - Jack Jr./Keith
5. Safari Classics - Tim & Dave
6. Mark Young - ACST
 
Posts: 558 | Location: Durango, CO | Registered: 18 July 2005Reply With Quote
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