quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Hi All

While I do agree with your sentiments about some outfitters blatantly buying in animals to shoot, they are few and far between and generally very easy to spot.

That said, they only make up about 1% of the hunting in the country. To paint the whole country with a tar brush is a bit excessive.

The idea that game is all pen raised and hand fed is not even remotely truthful, the entire income from hunting safaris could not support all the game inside fences for even a week, let alone all year long in anticipation of the hunters.

Charl works hard to provide an honest service. He sources all the best and biggest areas he can and sells as many hunts as he can to ensure that he can pay the land owners enough to be able to buy the rights to good areas.
When comments fly about all fenced hunting being canned then you can understand that a person on the ground here knowing the truth of the matter may be slightly worried.

I would like to close off in saying that if we as hunters continue to bash each other publicly and continue to make gross generalizations without any real facts, we are indirectly supporting the anti hunting drive.
You may choose where you wish to hunt, how you wish to hunt and why you wish to hunt. But you may not piss on another mans choices and expect him to like it, after all that is what anti hunters do all day.

I always say to anti hunters, come and spend a week with me in Africa and I will change your mind on the subject. This holds true for the fences issue. I will take you to ranches from 150ha to 150 000ha and you can make your mind up on the realities of the situation.

Eiether way, lets try and be civil and enjoy our sport together whilst supporting the true goal of hunting... conservation

quote:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that all high-fence hunting is 'canned'. The difference as I see it is that when there is a high-fence, no matter how large the concession, there will always be questions asked. The same cannot be said for low-fenced or unfenced hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:

quote:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that all high-fence hunting is 'canned'. The difference as I see it is that when there is a high-fence, no matter how large the concession, there will always be questions asked. The same cannot be said for low-fenced or unfenced hunts.

Fair enough.
Next time you hunt in the Umkomaas or anywhere in KZN please give me a call. I hunt a lot of the same areas that Crusader do, my home farm is about 75km from the Umkomaas valley.
It will be great to chat, I will bring the beer, just name your poison.

Cheers
Ian

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
I'm so tired of these free roaming, free ranging debates when it comes to South Africa. No fence, unless electrified or diamond meshed, keeps ANY wild animal in if he wants out. Ask any serious game ranch owner about: The jumpers (Kudu,Eland, Waterbuck), the "Domkrag" (jacklift) which is Wildbeest, Red HArtebeest and Gemsbok. Nyala that sail under the tightest game fence as if it is not there. Zebra in the full moon that go crazy and in a territorial fight just run through the fences, breaking it as if it was a thin thread! These Game ranch owners will tell you to no end about the countless hours they spend fighting with their neighbours about animals that come and go, fences that have to be fixed, and so forth.

Game Farms and international trophy hunting saved the wildlife in South Africa. Stop supporting it and it will all disappear.

So why are these fences there? To fence the poor beasties in to make them easy to shoot for the rich American trophy hunter (famous anti-hunting chant). No, it is because the pioneers in Nature Conservation (Dr. Ian Player, and many others)in South Africa, private and government, realised that if they give private ownership of game to the land owners, there will be more incentive from the land owner to look after, and manage these animals. Thus entered the "Exemption permit" system, whereby a landowner can fence his property, then get inspected by NAture Conservation for approval, then buy game to introduce into the area from a game auction (private of government), and hunt the species listed on the exemption certificate to his own discretion. Thus the wildlife spread across the country and the hunting industry took shape in the 70's and 80's.

Of course there was, and still is, many bad apples, like any industry, that offers semi tame, trophy bred animals to hunt in small (200 acre)electrified fenced areas....is this the norm of Plains Game hunting in South Africa. NO!

I respect those of you that do not wish to hunt Plains Game with a fence in sight. We have our own hunting area in Mozambique, so I can speak for both sides of this controversial coin. Be prepared however, to spend real money in hunting these fantastic wild places.

Our two main areas in South Africa are 20,000 and 30,000 acres big respectively. One close to Dwaalboom in Thabazimbi and the other close to Stoffberg on the Limpopo/Mpumalanga border. We also hunt smaller ranches in the area. As long as the animal population is FREE ROAMING (no fences to restrict their free movement) and self-sustaining, it is a real hunt in my book.

I'm not soap boxing from Angelic heights...I have hunted in small fenced camps (roughly 300-600acres), with clients and myself. I have learned over years to steer away from it, and it does leave a bitter taste sometimes, in the guide, and/or the client’s mouth. So we imposed a self-limit of 2,500 acres (1,000ha's) as the min. size of land we hunt on, as long as the hunting quota adhere to the other criteria listed above. This is not for cosmetic purposes in a borchure (or AR for that matter)....we realised this works and clients leave happy, so we stick to this rule. I know many serious outfitters in S.A. have the same viewpoint on size of land.

I further think it is short sighted generalisation, and puts a bad twist on hunting in general, to shoot Plains Game Hunting down in South Africa as a canned, fenced affair.

I wish many more of the hundreds of AR members that have hunted S.A. game ranches, and enjoyed the HUNTING part of it, will come out a little bit more in defence of, what is, a fantastic African hunting experience, if done right!

Sorry for the rant, but this is just one of those little things that get on my nerves.....Botswana closing, Tanzania, Zambia and Mozambique government fees sky rocketing to the dizzy heights of greedy African politicians, and out of reach of blue collar hunters. That leaves South Africa, Zim and Namibia as the only three destinations in reach of avg. Jo hunter....Zim with it's own political roller coaster problems as far as land use/allocations goes.....who knows how long that wonderfull Safari destination will remain what it (thankfully) still is today?

Do the homework, get ref. and book with someone that will give you a good hunting experience and good trophies for the buck you want to spend....and forget about the Bullshit!

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
And you sell hunts for Crusader Matt? You are so sitting the pot miss, it is not even funny, but I have followed your knowledge and advice on South African Plains Game hunting with great interest as a lurker and should know better than to respond to this. Nyala bull and ewe.....that is lesson 101 those boys in Natal teach you when you hunt (or sell hunts) Nyala with them....funny it never crossed your path. But hey, each to his own?

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Charl, if I were after a huge kudu first and foremost I'd have to visit with you some more. I have to admit though, with all due respect, the $500 airport fee rubs me the wrong way, especially in light of the fact that most operators offer it for nothing. I'm not here to piss anyone off. I'm not even sure of all the questions to ask. I'm trying to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Thank you Matt, and my apology then for getting red around the neck. I just feel that if you do not know enough about a topic to constructively ad to the conversation, then one should keep your gob shut.

That is why I never commented on the "Ozzie Buffalo" post. I started that thread for the simple reason that the whole the was so darned funny, and never posted once after that when every one else blew the whole thing out of proportion. To me it seems as you lot are shooting free ranging domestic cows (the water buffalo)and scrub bulls looks more dangerous and fun to hunt. BUT I never ever said a word as I do not know enough about it. I'm going down your way in May to kill one with Mark Savage hopefuly, but even after that I will not start giving myself out as someone that pertains to know about these animals.

It is wonderful what the word THINK does to a sentence.....Your initial post could have read "I think most PG hunting...." but to the public Sir, it seems as if you are very experienced and know a lot about this topic, when in fact, in your own words, "precious little".

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

This much I did know from enough campfires in Africa with Ozzies.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
To me it is heartening that there are other outfitters in RSA who offer low-fence or unfenced hunts. Of course Namibia has very many operators who offer it it seems.

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
To me it is heartening that there are other outfitters in RSA who offer low-fence or unfenced hunts. Of course Namibia has very many operators who offer it it seems.

Matt

How many farms in RSA and Namibia have you hunted on?

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:
I have never met Charl and I do not know him but whatever he says is 100% correct

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:

In Natal, cattle fences do not stop oribi and reedbuck but the males are very territorial and 9 times out of 10 if you go to an area where there is a male the hunt is not going to be hard. How do you classify that? Sometimes shooting an animal in a free range area can be as easy as shooting one in a fenced area. When I visited Zambia, Finding a mature impala was probably easier than finding an Impala on a 1000ha game farm in RSA.

In my experience bushbuck along the limpopo are much more easier to hunt than a cape bushbuck in KZN. Kudu in the area where Charl is offering his hunts is no walk in the park. You going to spend atleast a week before you see a bull over 55".

Leopard in RSA are damn hard. fences do not keep them in. If you have a leopard in your area, theres no guarantee he is going to stay on your bait, you have no idea if the farmer next door has a gut pile or a piece of meat lying around.

Bushpig in Mozambique are much much easier to hunt than one in RSA.

Whoever says Charl is talking bullshit needs to pull their head out of their arse and come do a hunt in KZN with a proper outfitter and then you will see.

I apologise for the rant but as Charl says, it pisses me off when guys write RSA of because everything is "canned"

At the end of the day, you can make hunting as easy or as hard as you wish to have whether in RSA Zambia or anywhere on earth.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MD375:
I have never met Charl and I do not know him but whatever he says is 100% correct

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

quote:

High fences are high fences, no matter where they are. Oh - the stories you hear....

You see Matt, the ones amongst us with a little bit of brains took offence to what you mentioned here......You have not hunted any decent free range, self sustainable high fenced area in your life! Untill you do, and prepared to come out and call it bullshit, then please reffrain in future to take jibes at our hunting industry in S.A.

quote:

Originally posted by LittleJoe:
Kanana is not bad to get too. About a four hour drive from the Maun airport. No charter necessary. Highly recommend Jason and Kanana.

quote:

Bullshit is the word.....

quote:

Originally posted by sidewinder bullets:
charl you should of left the post up............it was 100% correct