I've been contacted by my Tanzania Operator with a truly spectacular buffalo hunt offering. The hunts are to be 2x1 and will take place in Selous K4/R1 blocks. Time frame is August - November, 2010.

7 day Buffalo hunt all inclusive -$9,500 per hunter
10 day Buffalo hunt all inlusive - $11,000 per hunter

ALL INCLUSIVE - means all inclusive. The price includes:

# all government hunting fees
# import license for 1 gun each
# 1 buffalo trophy fee each
# 1 double room hotel accomodation for 2 clients
# car transport from DAR to Selous camps IN & OUT.

NOT INCLUDED:
Other animals can be taken per fee below:
hartebeest $850
wildebeest $850 warthog $550
impala $480
baboon $150 bushpig $550

This is a great offer and i'm happy to offer it. Please contact me directly with questions.

Tom Addleman
Hunting For Adventure LLC
(816) 213-6646
2502 W. Wall Street
Harrisonville, MO 64701

Sir you need to list all the details like the outfit and the concession. There are lots of copanies in Tanzania and lots of blocks in the Selous. Be specific. Thank you.

Brett

quote:

Sir you need to list all the details like the outfit and the concession. There are lots of copanies in Tanzania and lots of blocks in the Selous. Be specific. Thank you.

+1

Seloushunter

Sorry about that guys. Hunting operator is Malagarasi Safaris. K4/R1. I will have more details shortly as this just popped up this morning.

Please refer to my website for some pictures and other general information. I will be posting more details very soon.

Buffalo Trophy Fee, Conservation fees , Hunting License, Trophy Export Licence, Hotel cost alone makes more than US$ 5000.- ....wonder which PH are doing this hunts

Seloushunter

Yes Mboga, thanks for clarifying how good of a deal this is.

Pardon me for saying this, but something looks pretty fishy here. The cost of the 2nd buffalo TF is more than the increase in cost from a 7 day to a 10 day hunt. From a business perspective, that makes no sense at all. The operator is actually losing money on the 10 day hunt, even if the 7 day hunt is profitable. That is dumb.

I am always looking for a deal, but this just seems too good to be true.

If you have a question AZ, please feel free to ask. You do know that this is a 2x1 hunt correct? Each hunter paying $9,500 for a 7 day or each paying $11,000 for the 10 day.

Can I ask if the 2 hunters have a licence each or do they share a licence between them?

Between them. Therefor, the available plains game will be limited in that it will have to be split as well. But even at that, this is a great opportunity to hunt Tanzania at a very reasonable rate. They will each have a legal permit of course. This is a legitimate offer. If someone is interested, please contact me with questions or ask them here.

quote:

Originally posted by SilentT:
Between them. Therefor, the available plains game will be limited in that it will have to be split as well.

You need to check the Tourist Hunting Regulations. Shared licences are illegal and all it takes is an awkward game scout or a visit from the DGO who asks to check the licences and the hunt will be terminated at best and at worst, the clients & PH could find themselves in a Tanzaninan jail.

Let me know if you need chapter & verse of the relevent act(s)

This might help: http://www.shakariconnection.c...-selous-reserve.html

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Let me know if you need chapter & verse of the relevent act(s)

This might help: http://www.shakariconnection.c...-selous-reserve.html

Shakari,

While i share your desire to make sure this hunt is 100% on the up and up, i can't go on just your word. I PM'd you asking for the law you cite and got a link to your website about hunting the Selous and a response that the law says "something like". Hardly the chapter and verse of the relevant acts. I will of course suspend this offer until i get a clear and absolute answer on these issues. Thankyou for your concern but the matter will be looked at and i will take the appropriate actions (cancelling the offer) if it is in violation of any law, ordinance or regulation. Cheers.

The illegality of this split the bag hunt scheme is why we offer a Companion Hunt Fee. This provides a license for each hunter on a 2x1 basis but sharing one bag. All neat and legal.

Mark

I'm quite certain that the companion hunt fee is what we have here. I will contact the outfitter in the morning and confirm it. I believe the confusion is due to my failure to properly convey the offer in an easy to understand way. Thanks Mark

quote:

Originally posted by SilentT:
I'm quite certain that the companion hunt fee is what we have here.

Well if it wasn't, I'd bet it is now!

Mark, Adam is going to spank you for giving away his trade secrets!

Tom, this is Licky Abdallah's company, correct?

Okay, I think I see what you are doing...two hunters split one bag, so it is not a true 2x1 with two guys shooting four buffalo in ten days. I have heard of a "companion" buying the license and splitting the bag.

Not as great of a deal as it sounded. For twice the price you can shoot two buff in Masailand on a 1x1. The latter is the better deal.

There are 3 different ways of doing it. Two are perfectly legitimate and the other isn't and there could easily have been some mis-communication between agent and outfitter, which is why I asked the question.

Before I start I'll explain that the game dept charge a fee for every day the hunter in in the reserve and a lesser fee for every day a non hunting observer is in the reserve........ which is the main reason the game acts don't allow shared licences because it gyps them out of money.

The first way is for each hunter to have a licence each and all the animals that are available for that licence listed. That way they can take 2 Buff each etc. This is perfectly legal and above board.

The second way is to have one licence with one hunter's name on it and the other hunter listed as a non hunting observer and they split the animals between them. This is illegal.

The third option is more complicated. Whilst the species available on any TZ hunt are based on the length of licence purchased, an outfitter is free to apply for less animals per licence. These hunts are usually of less hunting days.

The advantage of this option is that the outfitter can spread the animals he has on quota over a larger number of hunts and therefore make more money both for himself and the GD and also reduce prices for the hunter. This one goes by a variety of names, including companion hunt etc. It's perfectly legal but of course the hunter gets a reduced bag albeit at a reduced price.

Largely its a matter of horses for courses and the third option is a good way to allow hunters to hunt areas such as the SGR at a reduced price but for the obvious reason, they need to be sure which option they're getting.

FWIW, basically there are 4 game acts that apply to TZ sport hunting. 2 are in English and 2 in Ki Swahili. All contradict each other to some extent and the Ki Swahili acts state that in the case of contradiction, refer to the English acts as being correct.

In the case of the Wildlife Conservation Act of 1974 for example, in part IV 25.1 it states something like: game licences may be issued to an applicant etc. (it doesn't say applicants) The other (English) act says something about each hunter must have his own licence etc.

Anyone who's ever hunted Tanzania will probably have noticed the first thing a PH does when he gets his hands on the licence is to look it over to check all the details from his and the client's name are correct to hunt dates to species listed. The reason he's so keen to check it's all correct is that if it isn't he could well be dropping himself and the client well and truly in the smelly brown stuff.

Silent T, I did reply to your PMs and my intention isn't to stir the shit, it's to make sure no member gets unknowingly dropped in it.

I don't think the game acts are available online, at least, not that I know of but you can get them from the Ivory Rooms the next time you're in the area........ getting in there to collect them is sometimes a different matter though!

FWIW, no set of game laws is perfect and to an extent are there for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. In the case of shared licences, it pays to adhere strictly to the rules but for example, if one stuck to the rule about what locations to shoot a croc, no crocs would ever get shot...... because when they listed the species that may be shot in or near water, someone forgot to include flatdogs.

Hope that helps clarify a complicated subject.

quote:

Anyone who's ever hunted Tanzania will probably have noticed the first thing a PH does when he gets his hands on the licence is to look it over to check all the details from his and the client's name are correct to hunt dates to species listed.

Boy, that is true.

I must also say I misread the post. Tom never said the ten day was for two buff; I guess I am so used to seeing ten day hunts include two buff that I goofed.

SilentT

I forgot to say that if you need further clarification of the various Tanzanian game laws etc you could always ask any of the other PHs who also operate up there to confirm what I'm saying.

There are several other members here who also operate as PHs up there and I'm sure any/all would be happy to confirm what I've told you.

I should have suggested that earlier and my apologies for not doing so.

Shakari is on the money with his explanation.

If it is 2 x 1 the clients MUST legally have a licence each. This costs $2450 per person excluding gun permits. It is a ten day licence - 7 day licences were scrapped in 2007.

Many unscrupulous outfitters buy just one licence and bribe the Game Scout to turn a blind eye. Please do not any of you countenance this.

It is up to the outfitter to decide whether to actually allow the hunters to take two buff each or one buff each. Certainly at the prices quoted the outfitter should only allow one buff each.

quote:

Originally posted by SilentT:
If you have a question AZ, please feel free to ask. You do know that this is a 2x1 hunt correct? Each hunter paying $9,500 for a 7 day or each paying $11,000 for the 10 day.

SilentT:

To the best of my knowledge there is NO 7 day Buffalo license - minimum is 10 day.
I also think it is incorrect to offer a 7 day Buffalo hunt when the royalties imposed
are for 10 anyway.
Should a hunter wish to hunt for 5,6,7 or 8 is their choice - the license however will still
be charged for a minimum of 10 days.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Tom,
I was looking at your website and could only find 3 pics of buffalo in your gallery, were these buff shot in this unit of the Selous? If not, do you have any pics of buffalo taken on this hunt? What is the density of buff in your area (approx)? Has anyone else hunted with Tom or in these units? More info would be appreciated.
Thanks

It is likely, given the forum, that we have, most of us, hunted plains game in Africa. I have hunted several different venues and countries and in every case an observer was allowed to take an animal or two for the trophy fee only. In these instances no license was mentioned. I would bet this practice is also illegal. Where is the outcry in this situation?

Seems to me the real crime in this instance is selling a hunt much, MUCH, cheaper than many of the larger operators.

The taking of an animal by an observer is technically illegal in all of Africa and one offense is no more egregious than the other. It is kinda neat for one outditter to tell another what to charge for their services in open forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
It is likely, given the forum, that we have, most of us, hunted plains game in Africa. I have hunted several different venues and countries and in every case an observer was allowed to take an animal or two for the trophy fee only. In these instances no license was mentioned. I would bet this practice is also illegal. Where is the outcry in this situation?

Seems to me the real crime in this instance is selling a hunt much, MUCH, cheaper than many of the larger operators.

The taking of an animal by an observer is technically illegal in all of Africa and one offense is no more egregious than the other. It is kinda neat for one outditter to tell another what to charge for their services in open forum.

Adrian,

I don't know if that comment was directed at me or not and I don't much care either way.

My intention wasn't to criticise the price or the quality of the hunt at all. Nor was it to criticise the guy offering the hunt.

It was to ensure no forum member Inadvertently gets dropped in the shit.

Tanzania has some of the best game populations in Africa and one of the main reasons for that is that they have what are probably some of the strictest game laws in Africa...... they can very protective of those things and I'd guess that the recent CITES refusal is going to make them even more so.

You might like to take another look at my previous post where I explain the different ways a 2x1 hunt in Tz can be arranged.

Regarding your comment "The taking of an animal by an observer is technically illegal in all of Africa"

I hope you won't mind my correcting you slightly on that. There are many parts of Africa that allow such actions..... but Tanzania isn't one of them.

hope that helps.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
It is likely, given the forum, that we have, most of us, hunted plains game in Africa. I have hunted several different venues and countries and in every case an observer was allowed to take an animal or two for the trophy fee only. In these instances no license was mentioned. I would bet this practice is also illegal. Where is the outcry in this situation?

Seems to me the real crime in this instance is selling a hunt much, MUCH, cheaper than many of the larger operators.

The taking of an animal by an observer is technically illegal in all of Africa and one offense is no more egregious than the other. It is kinda neat for one outditter to tell another what to charge for their services in open forum.

Adrian:

There is a limit to how cheap a TZ hunt can go - If you were to analyze and do cost breakdown you might
review your remark.

As far as Tanzanian tourist hunting laws are concerned, an observer is not permitted to shoot any game though
I do not deny nor refute that this does happen.

In such circumstances rest assured that the PH will have requested prior permission from the Game Officer i/c.
who may agree or reject the request - the trophy fee for animal/s taken will be paid for directly by the
license holder - settling of accounts is a personal issue which will take place between them back home.

The only instance of sharing animals is related to a 2 x 1 x 21 days (full license) where clients have to share the
cats (1 Lion + 1 Leopard)and which of the two shoots what.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
It is likely, given the forum, that we have, most of us, hunted plains game in Africa. I have hunted several different venues and countries and in every case an observer was allowed to take an animal or two for the trophy fee only. In these instances no license was mentioned. I would bet this practice is also illegal. Where is the outcry in this situation?

Seems to me the real crime in this instance is selling a hunt much, MUCH, cheaper than many of the larger operators.

The taking of an animal by an observer is technically illegal in all of Africa and one offense is no more egregious than the other. It is kinda neat for one outditter to tell another what to charge for their services in open forum.

What you have mentioned is true, and not illegal, in countries like Zimbabwe and South Africa.

In Tanzania, anyone who actually wishes to shoot any animal MUST have a hunting license.

I think this is why many of us tend to misunderstand the situation in Tanzania.

Steve,

My observation(remark) was not directed at you or any other particular individual. If you offended me in some way I would probably ask for an explanation by PM, not in open forum. I guess overall my feelings about you and your past posts has been positive. Not that you would care.

With all the graft, fraud, deceit, and other human and inhuman vices that are rife in Africa it still seems to me to be a pretty trivial matter. The other person not mentioned on the license is, almost by definition an observer. Obviously, if this person shot an animal it would be with the consent, implied or otherwise, of the game scout.

It still seems to me that the major sin is offering a hunt cheaper than some others can or will.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Steve,

My observation(remark) was not directed at you or any other particular individual. If you offended me in some way I would probably ask for an explanation by PM, not in open forum. I guess overall my feelings about you and your past posts has been positive. Not that you would care.

With all the graft, fraud, deceit, and other human and inhuman vices that are rife in Africa it still seems to me to be a pretty trivial matter. The other person not mentioned on the license is, almost by definition an observer. Obviously, if this person shot an animal it would be with the consent, implied or otherwise, of the game scout.

It still seems to me that the major sin is offering a hunt cheaper than some others can or will.

Adrian,

My comment about my not caring about your opinion of me wasn't meant to be rude. It was meant to indicate that I felt my comment was accurate.

My intention wasn't to criticise the price of this offer. Many offers on this forum are killer deals and certainly far lower than I could or would ever offer a hunt for. Frankly, some plains game daily rates I've seen are less than I pay the PHs who do work for us...... but you'll never see me criticise those hunts because it's none of my business what price other people offer their product/services for.

The reason I commented on this one was as I've previously mentioned.

Note I didn't criticise the price at all. I did however, ask if it was a split licence hunt or a licence each and then pointed out that IF it was a split licence hunt, there are possible legal implications for those who might book it..... for their own good.

My guess is that there was probably a miscommunication between outfitter and agent and it is in fact a licence each with limited species on each licence as per the 3rd option I mentioned.

The following comments are not directed at any person or any offer on this forum or elsewhere. They are general comments. Nothing more and nothing less.

However, you do actually raise a very good point about pricing. A lot of hunters out there seem to think people in the safari industry make a fortune and believe me, nothing could be further from the truth. No doubt African hunting safaris are helluva expensive but very little of those prices are profit. Certainly profit margins are nowhere near as high as most other businesses.

The other side of the coin of your argument is that there comes a time, or more accurately a price where one has to bear in mind that there's no such thing as a free lunch and better people realise that than make the common mistake of just looking at the price of a product and not the quality.

No sensible person would expect to be able to buy a Westley Richards double rifle for the price of a Brno or a Ferrari for the price of a Ford and they would be well advised to bear the same rule in mind when buying a safari where they go into an area and conduct an activity where lives and limbs might be at stake.

As with other things in life, you very rarely get what you don't pay for.

I wonder if this is part of Froncolin Safaris (Formerly Usangu Safari).

quote:

I wonder if this is part of Froncolin Safaris (Formerly Usangu Safari).

No its not the same Company.
But Malagarasi Hunting Safaris, Intercon or Francolin Safaris have the same Business Ethics...

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
It is likely, given the forum, that we have, most of us, hunted plains game in Africa. I have hunted several different venues and countries and in every case an observer was allowed to take an animal or two for the trophy fee only. In these instances no license was mentioned. I would bet this practice is also illegal. Where is the outcry in this situation?

Seems to me the real crime in this instance is selling a hunt much, MUCH, cheaper than many of the larger operators.

The taking of an animal by an observer is technically illegal in all of Africa and one offense is no more egregious than the other. It is kinda neat for one outditter to tell another what to charge for their services in open forum.

Adrian:

There is a limit to how cheap a TZ hunt can go - If you were to analyze and do cost breakdown you might
review your remark.

As far as Tanzanian tourist hunting laws are concerned, an observer is not permitted to shoot any game though
I do not deny nor refute that this does happen.

In such circumstances rest assured that the PH will have requested prior permission from the Game Officer i/c.
who may agree or reject the request - the trophy fee for animal/s taken will be paid for directly by the
license holder - settling of accounts is a personal issue which will take place between them back home.

The only instance of sharing animals is related to a 2 x 1 x 21 days (full license) where clients have to share the
cats (1 Lion + 1 Leopard)and which of the two shoots what.

Just to clarify once and for all and avoid any confusion:
A non-hunting observer is not allowed to shoot game off of another person's hunting license in Tanzania. Anyone wishing to shoot an animal has to purchase the appropriate license for the desired species and pay the respective Government fees associated with this. A Game Scout, DGO, or any other Gov official CANNOT give permission to an observer to shoot an animal without a license. If this happens, it is because the GS has been given/offered a bribe to "look the other way". And I wholeheartedly disagree that such action should be considered "trivial" as it is denying the Government and by extension conservation efforts additional revenue.

Dear Silent T

Please send me a mail mark.mclean@rocketmail.com
for 2011

I don't understand why people get all excited about buffalo hunts in Tanzania, even "cheap" ones, when for even less money, easier logistics, and without the necessity of a charter in most cases, you can hunt exactly the same animal in Zim for exactly the same duration with a better variety of PG for $1-2K less money. Is it the "Mugabe" factor? Or is there something about Tanzania that warrants the higher prices?

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
I don't understand why people get all excited about buffalo hunts in Tanzania, even "cheap" ones, when for even less money, easier logistics, and without the necessity of a charter in most cases, you can hunt exactly the same animal in Zim for exactly the same duration with a better variety of PG for $1-2K less money. Is it the "Mugabe" factor? Or is there something about Tanzania that warrants the higher prices?

I'm sure it a combination of both your points and not to mention IMO, the wild Selous equivalent would be Chewore which is available for similar $.

Chewore "rack rate" is the same as Tanzania "deep discount rate" perhaps... if you look around you can do a buff in Zim for $8K. I did 3 clients last year for substantially less than that, in one of the better areas.

I feel real sorry for Silent T
If you guy's have better deals and think this one is crap POST YOUR OWN HUNT OFFERS.
If you have a serious question of the hunt ask the outfitter. I am sure this forum was not set up to insult and be rude to other outfitters.
If you have a problem with the hunts, post on the Appropriate forum. Some times you guy's are relentless with Criticism it surley not helpful running a guy's offer into the ground and beat it like a dead horse.
If you dont like the hunt or the price DONT BUY IT.
Larry

Brett
I guess everyone is assuming this is an illegal
hunt. All I am saying is make a note go to the African information forum and post the concerns there. This is a forum to post the hunts. We waste to much time going thru the dribble. Reminds me of my wife telling me about her day 6 hours later.
Gee Wiz sounds like we have a bunch of guy's that are Experienced in the split license hunting. Is this the dont do as I do but do as I say.
Thats it from me
Have a great day
Larry

quote:

Originally posted by elk88101:
Brett
I guess everyone is assuming this is an illegal
hunt. All I am saying is make a note go to the African information forum and post the concerns there. This is a forum to post the hunts. We waste to much time going thru the dribble. Reminds me of my wife telling me about her day 6 hours later.
Gee Wiz sounds like we have a bunch of guy's that are Experienced in the split license hunting. Is this the dont do as I do but do as I say.
Thats it from me
Have a great day
Larry

So do you think if "OUT OF AFRICA" posted a deal
here that it would not be right to post a warning?
I for one love this sight and ALL the info one can learn from.