I'm sure Arnold will be chiming in any time now!



Brett

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Hmmm...Is it the same ?

That same pic of him and the buffalo is on the top of this webpage and it lists all of his other "trophies"

http://www.stonehuntingsafaris.com/SCI.html

A.S.J.D MURRAY

SCI # 4 LION
SCI # 5 BUFFALO
SCI # 2 NYALA
SCI # 4 ROOSEVELT SABLE
SCI # 1 BLESBUCK
SCI # 2 BLESBUCK
SCI # 4 BLESBUCK
SCI # 2 WHITE RHINO
SCI # 1 SOUTHERN ROAN
SCI # 5 CHOBE BUSHBUCK
SCI # 10 NYALA
SCI # 10 KIRK DIK DIK
SCI # 9 KIRK DIK DIK
SCI # 2 KIRK DIK DIK
SCI # 4 BLACK SPRINGBUCK
SCI # 9 THOMPSON GAZELLE
SCI # 2 COPPER SPRINGBUCK
SCI # 5 CIVET CAT
SCI # 6 CARACAL
SCI # 7 BLUE DUIKER
SCI # 5 RED FLANKED DUIKER
SCI # 6 BARBARY SHEEP
SCI # 6 CIVET CAT
SCI # 3 WHITE RHINO
SCI # 3 WATER BUFFALO
SCI # 3 BLUE WILDEBEEST
SCI # 5 WHITE BLESBUCK
SCI # 5 SOUTHERN GREATER KUDU
SCI # 2 COPPER SPRINGBUCK
SCI # 3 BLACK SPRINGBUCK



Is this the same guy??

Looks like that's him. Good detective work Dark Continent.

Isn't internet a wonderful thing? I bet someday while he is telling the story of his "adventure" while showing the mount, at least one attendee will have a meaningful smirk on his face.

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Hmmm...Is it the same ?

Umm. If that is the same buff, there must have been a lot of time between the pictures. Look at the thickness of the first fold at the front of the boss. In the picture in the kraal, it ends above the eye. On the ground it extends well beyond the eyes and seems to have a knot under the horns.

Oh, it's the same buff.

The shoe polish has just worn off.....or been washed off.

Seriously, it's just the lighting and coloration. No doubt, time elapsed between the two pics but it's definitely the same bull.

quote:

Originally posted by Vanderhoef:
Oh, it's the same buff.

The shoe polish has just worn off.....or been washed off.

Seriously, it's just the lighting and coloration. No doubt, time elapsed between the two pics but it's definitely the same bull.

Agreed. Without the slightest doubt.

Originally offered and eventually killed in RSA.

Coincidence? No.

Just look at the double ridged wrinkle on the left horn.

Thought this a Zim bull?

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
Thought this a Zim bull?

They probably herded it down to SA for the shooting

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Hmmm...Is it the same ?

That same pic of him and the buffalo is on the top of this webpage and it lists all of his other "trophies"

http://www.stonehuntingsafaris.com/SCI.html

A.S.J.D MURRAY

SCI # 4 LION
SCI # 5 BUFFALO
SCI # 2 NYALA
SCI # 4 ROOSEVELT SABLE
SCI # 1 BLESBUCK
SCI # 2 BLESBUCK
SCI # 4 BLESBUCK
SCI # 2 WHITE RHINO
SCI # 1 SOUTHERN ROAN
SCI # 5 CHOBE BUSHBUCK
SCI # 10 NYALA
SCI # 10 KIRK DIK DIK
SCI # 9 KIRK DIK DIK
SCI # 2 KIRK DIK DIK
SCI # 4 BLACK SPRINGBUCK
SCI # 9 THOMPSON GAZELLE
SCI # 2 COPPER SPRINGBUCK
SCI # 5 CIVET CAT
SCI # 6 CARACAL
SCI # 7 BLUE DUIKER
SCI # 5 RED FLANKED DUIKER
SCI # 6 BARBARY SHEEP
SCI # 6 CIVET CAT
SCI # 3 WHITE RHINO
SCI # 3 WATER BUFFALO
SCI # 3 BLUE WILDEBEEST
SCI # 5 WHITE BLESBUCK
SCI # 5 SOUTHERN GREATER KUDU
SCI # 2 COPPER SPRINGBUCK
SCI # 3 BLACK SPRINGBUCK



Is this the same guy??

Anyone would like to hazard a guess as to how many of this man's "trophies" were obtained in a similar manner?

Unfortunately this kind of thing happens. Far too often.

I know of one REALLY big name hunter that shot a lion in a cage.

I personally saw an SCI bigwig helicopter to a farm and shoot a top 10 animal in a small pasture, then helicopter out.

It is disgusting.

The following is from Stone Hunting Safaris web page!

I think this is one outfit I will NOT be hunting with!

"Stone Hunting Safaris will only hunt in the best areas available in africa today were it is possible to obtain above average trophies. We will not hunt a sub standard area period! The excellent hand picked areas we hunt through out africa produce top quality trophies each year and this is reflected in the number of top ten and gold medal trophies our clients have registered in the SCI record book. We are the only outfitter to have 3 top ten wild lion in the SCI record book and we are also very fortunate to have taken a number of world record trophies with our clients. We appreciate that not every hunter concentrates on hunting trophies for the record book and nor should they, our focus at Stone Hunting Safaris is getting our clients the best possible trophies available and to ensure them the hunt of a life time"

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The following is from Stone Hunting Safaris web page!

I think this is one outfit I will NOT be hunting with!

" We are the only outfitter to have 3 top ten wild lion in the SCI record book

Clowns.

They should have left "wild" out.....then all is well.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

By writing 'wild' they immediately raise suspicion. Which other operator writes we have taken such and such 'wild' lions....Only those who don't take wild lions, we can be sure of that.

I would love SCI to remove all the trophies taken through this outfitter from their record book.

But, I suspect the big honchos at SCI know precisely what is going on, and turning a blind eye to it.

And if they claim they don't, don't believe them!

This "mine is bigger than yours" is becoming so silly, it has become the holly grail of so called "hunting"!

And as in this case, SCI is the instigator and cheerleader for it!

I hunt because I enjoy hunting, not to have my name displayed in some record book

quote:

This "mine is bigger than yours" is becoming so silly, it has become the holly grail of so called "hunting"!

And as in this case, SCI is the instigator and cheerleader for it!

No that's how SCI started. Over the years SCI has become less about that and more about other things. The majority of SCI members (myself included) could care less about the record book or system. That had absolutely nothing to do with why I joint and that's the case with many other members. I do however appreciate the record book for the fact that it's a big fund raiser for SCI. Other than that I could care less.

Brett

Agree 100% Saeed, and I bet the safari wagon just out of camera on the website pictures is set up for mobile animal grooming. Shampoo, blow dry, hair wax and hairstylist. That striped hyena just looks so cuddly. Sorry must go, I'm feeling sick.

Does anyone know whether that buffalo was killed in the holding area or was he taken out to be killed?

And was that done by Stone Hunting Safaris or by Mr. Payne?

quote:

I hunt because I enjoy hunting, not to have my name displayed in some record book

+1

Seloushunter

Two of the African Lion which seems to be distinguished from the pen raised variety are from Lupande and Moyowasi. You don't reckon they were trucked in do you?

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Two of the African Lion which seems to be distinguished from the pen raised variety are from Lupande and Moyowasi. You don't reckon they were trucked in do you?

Jeff

I would not put it past thnem!

I have heard it from a number of reliable sources that some lions shot in Zimbabwe are almost certainly have been "trucked in" from a farm in South Africa.

Does the PH place the lion at the bait a week ahead of time? A day? An hour before the hunter enters the blind? What if they release the lion and the lion decides to run off?

Who pays for that?

It seems very risky for a PH/outfitter to transport a lion from SA to Zim....paying off a number of officials to get the lion in ZIM and then releasing the lion with a chance it may run off. Might explain why lion hunts are so expensive.


Or are these lions tied up?


dale

Dale,

You might like to read this:

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

Gentlemen,

I would bet good money that 99% of those who actually go to bag a lion in South Africa KNOW FULL WELL IN ADVANCE they are getting one bred on a farm.

quote:

It seems very risky for a PH/outfitter to transport a lion from SA to Zim....paying off a number of officials to get the lion in ZIM and then releasing the lion with a chance it may run off. Might explain why lion hunts are so expensive.


Or are these lions tied up?

Good old Special K to the rescue.

At least that is one possibility.

[Not addressing any game pictured in this or any thread, just the question about keeping a lion in the area if he is trucked in.]

Intersting post from another thread:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
American Money says it all...

"In God we trust"...all others pay cash or transfer up front

Totally unrelated to this case or either gentleman involved...but still two fairly recent zim cases...

1) Client has a fantastic lion hunt in a parks area. Shoots a great lion (SCI no 5 I think) Later that morning while the lion is being skined he notices a truck with a cage on the back having a broken spring fixed in camp...falls in with sharing a smoke with the driver ...who tells him that he dropped a lion off at the point by the blind at 4am that morning..."yus boss, it was a bit scary, the lion was coming round and starting to lift his head..." Client got into the blind at 4:30 and the lion was lying near the bait with it's head up at 5:10 when he shot it...

2) Client books an ele/buff hunt in Zim. Room in the lodge in Harare uis gone through while he is at dinner and a few minor things including his GPS stolen. He is greatful he is carrying TC's not cash. Hunt goes very well and he gets a 80lb ele. While sitting watching the recovery he finds his old GPS in his fanny pack and switches on...funny it shows they are in Mozambique...he wakes up and pays attention...sure enough he can understand the game scout and some of the workers ...they seem to be speaking some form of spanish...(client spoke good spanish) He soon falls into to chatting with them..African Portuguese vs Spanish but they get along ok...yup they are hunting 25km inside moz. Client works out that PH intends either to never send him the tusks or else to fudge the paperwork and declare the ele as shot in Zim (turned out it was the latter - tusks were recovered by Zim Parks).

In the first case, the client paid and complained later. In the second, the client's second signature on the TC's was sufficiently different for the bank to refuse them...

Having been stung for 20k on a Zambezi Valley auction hunt that took 9 years to be resolved I am watching this case with interest!!!

Saeed,

I reckon I'd have to disagree with that.

I'm sure many are aware of the real set up but I doubt the majority are.

It was only a couple of years ago that a guy posted on AR how 2 or 3 of them had each shot a male and a female apiece in just a few days.

Until the guys here put him right, he was convinced they were wild Lions and claimed it was the most fun one could have with one's trousers/pants on.

Alternatively, take a look at YouTube and check out how many dodgy videos there are where the hunter very obviously thinks he's shot a wild Lion..... let's face it, if these guys knew they were shooting Lions that were pumped so full of vitamin K, he didn't know which way was up, I'd be astounded if they'd be dumb enough to show it to the world.

I seem to remember seeing one a while ago where the guy shot one with a bow and was damn nearly crapping himself while the Lion could hardly raise his head off the ground or open his eyes.

I'd say a good many people have the wool pulled over their eyes and think they're hunting wild Lions.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Two of the African Lion which seems to be distinguished from the pen raised variety are from Lupande and Moyowasi. You don't reckon they were trucked in do you?

Jeff

Trucked.....no - but possibly flown in with the rhino

Some points from Shakari's web site regarding fraudulent lion hunts:

In some, but not all, cases, following the lion spoor seen on the hunting concession is quite a futile exercise! Why? Because the spoor was planted! In South Africa there are quite a number of lion breeders who own very tame lions. Some are so tame that the trainer owner can take such a lion for a walk in the veldt every morning! Just the same as I take my dogs for a walk, with no lead. My dogs will run around within sight and return when I call. The big lion spoor in these cases is picked up, and lost later the day in a stony or very hard ground area where the lion walker starts and ends his early morning walk. What happened in fact was that the lion is brought to the area and then after the walk taken away after jumping onto the back of a pick-up truck, just like I do with my dogs! Some of the trackers do not even know that there are following a planted spoor! In every case the PH knows what the truth is.

If the HO is "hunting" with his client in South Africa, a relatively easy procedure is required. The lion breeder or seller must just adequately sedate the agreed on lion with a drug (known generally as Vitamin K) that, being in use as a social human drug, is quite readily available in South Africa. They then load the lion, either in a secure cage or not, but usually in a delivery van or pick-up truck with closed sides. A drive that usually starts and is completed at night follows, and they deliver and release the caged or drugged lion at an agreed on location very early in the morning on an agreed on date.


Once the ordered captive bred lion has been delivered at a given location on a given date, the chances of the PH and trackers getting the client on to the, often still tranquilized, lion increases dramatically! In fact the lion does not really stand any chance. This is because the lion is often still under heavy sedation to keep him calm during the transport process. You may ask: “Why not simply inject an antidote to at least have a fully awake and aware lion to shoot? Remember that the lion was illegally delivered on the farm and any escape by such a lion will result in untold legal complications for the HO, so they play it safe and let the client shoot a lion that does not know his arse from his backside by the time the hunting team closes in with him.


Shakari: In your opinion and other AR members as well.....How many lions taken each year are canned, but sold as legitimate hunts? How many hunters have been fooled over the years? I always thought that when "canned hunts" were discussed, the lion was actually shot in the cage.

So, to hunt African lion, you could either hunt:

1. caged canned lion

2. semi-canned lion hunt....tranquilized lion in open range

3. real wild lion

did I miss any options?


dale

PS: Thanks for the lesson on canned hunts.

Our friend Arnold Payne was in Dallas selling hunts. He was offering a 2X2 buffalo hunt for $8,500 or so. Talking to him felt like talking to Al at honest Al's used cars. I wonder if anyone bought?

Dale,

I'm probably the worst person to ask about the numbers of canned Lions sold, because everyone knows how I feel about it and so keep me out of the loop.(luckily, I've got big ears though ) .... but I can tell you that a great many of those shoots (NOT hunts) are sold and that there are very few, if any truly wild Lion hunts available in SA.

The closest you can get to a wild Lion in SA are in the areas adjoining the nat parks and at best, those animals are deeply habituated to people and vehicles and therefore will behave differently to a wild Lion. That doesn't necessarily mean they're any less dangerous, but it does mean they behave differently.... At worst, they might introduce a ringer.

Also, don't for a moment think they don't find their way across borders. The same thing can and does happen elsewhere and indeed one has just been mentioned on AR as happening in Zim.

You also read reports of Lions being shot in areas adjoining or close to that haven't had a Lion in 'em for 20 years...... and they sure as hell don't get there by magic.

Theoretically, the practice is now banned in SA and they have to be self sustaining for 2 years before they can be shot..... but they can't police the roads here, let alone umpteen Lion farmers and God knows how many individual animals.

Here's another one that might also be of interest: http://www.shakariconnection.c...canned-shooting.html

Question:

Back to the original post regarding this big buffalo.

Do they drug the buffalo similar to the canned lion hunts? Or do they let them run wild and just have bait stations where they know the buff hangs around and just shoot him?

How do you speculate this 50 inch was taken?

I suppose if you let a captive buffalo wild, will a bull group up in the heard. Or would the heard reject the foreign bull?


dale

'Fraid I can't comment on individual cases such as this, as it'd be nothing more than idle speculation because I didn't see anything with my own eyes.....

Sincerely sorry not to be able to give you an answer on that!

However, If I were speculating how this 50 inch was taken........... I'd say probably, very fuckin' easily!

Dale,

I would use a bucket of sweet feed or some nice pellets...

Jeff

Not to sidetrack this thread BUT this is exactly what has happened to whitetail deer hunting in Texas. Those deer are AI breed, raised in "traps", darted, measured and turned loose before the "shooter" arrives.
There was a guy carrying around a 220 class deer at the DSC show and I heard him talking about how the outfitter had seen the deer a couple of times and they had him on a trail camera, etc, etc.
Killing a 200 class WT means nothing anymore in the whitetail world, they're just to easy to go out and kill one on a one or two day hunt as long as you have the dinero.
Kind of sounds like some of the canned lion hunts and quite honestly, it's possible some of the "shooters" do not know or do not want to believe those big deer were planted. Makes me sick how the record books have ruined such a once noble sport. My hats off to those of you who hunt for the sheer joy of hunting.

They probably used the "buffalo call", as in they walked out the back door and the "PH" yells at the top of his lungs "HEEEEERE BUDDDDY, <whistle whistle>, HEEEEERE LITTLE GUY, I've got some sugar cubes for you! HEEEERE YOU BIG BAD BUFFALO!" Bang-Flop.

Just a guess?

A couple of years ago I was in a RSA concession staying at a little guest cottage in the middle of a large hunting ranch. The cottage had a game fence around it to keep buffalo from eating the watered lawn (and perhaps stomping on guests). This fine old bull walked up to five feet from me before I realized that the fence was actually "optional" to him he he wanted to come through and I retired to a greater distance. I saw him come to a bore hole every afternoon like clockwork, btw. I could have poked him with a broom handle.

I wonder what the "trophy" fee was?

Someone should walk up to Mr. Angus Murray and ask him about his hunt for this buffalo at SCI!

I am sure he will anxious to put his application for inclusion in the record book again!

Guys.Good to know that most of You know the true about those canned hunt, same in my country, good to know that most of You, did not acept this "fake hunts", but better see how do You expose those "lies sellers".Guille

Just goes to show you all you gotta do to get in the record books is write a check!

As someone mentioned earlier Deer hunting in Texas has turned into a joke. Want a 180" deer? Write a check! Want a 200"? Write a bigger check!

Very, very sad!



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