Well, just about everything went perfectly on our trip, with the exception being a problem I had with American Airlines at Heathrow Airport on our way home earlier today. My family of four was flying on AAdvantage frequent flyer miles, so we were routed from San Francisco to London on American and then London to Jo'burg on British.

On our flight over, everything went fine. Our bags all arrived in Jo'burg just like they were supposed to. The problem cropped up on the flight home. The ticket agent for British Airways checked our bags all the way from Jo'burg through to San Francisco, with the Jo'burg to London leg again on British and then from London to San Franciso on American. Everything got to London just fine.

The problem only become known to me when my family was trying to board our American Airlines flight when I presented my boarding pass to the agent at the gate before walking down the jetway. I was politely informed that there was a problem and that American Airlines would NOT accept my guns from British Airways. I was further advised that American Airlines policy is to only carry firearms for military personnel and nobody else, no exceptions.

I found this to be puzzling, since American had written our travel and accepted my guns going from San Francisco to London with no hesitation. I also advised the agent that American Airlines has carried my guns on numerous occasions here in the USA and I've never had any problem with them at all. Her response was a polite but firm statement that my guns absolutely were not going on American Airlines plane heading to the USA, but that they'd made arrangements for British Airways to fly us home with my guns. This actually worked out better for us since the flight left later but got us home sooner with no intermediate stops.

It turns out that the problem originated with a Mr. Davinder Banger, who is a security supervisor for American Airlines at Heathrow. He is the person who made the decision to not accept my guns, and is the individual who I'll be highlighting in my upcoming letter to the VP of customer relations at American Airlines that will be going out in a few days. This moron has some issue with flying guns int he belly of American's jets and he single handedly screwed everything up. Now that my trip is over, I'm going to fully focus my attention on this little prick and ensure that he gets the full credit he deserves for being an anti-gun idiot. As you follow along, keep in mind that my guns were ticketed straight through and I had no possession of them from the time I turned them over in Jo'burg until I picked them up in San Francisco.

I must give credit where it is due, as the entire staff of British Airways went out of their way to assist me, as did the people with G4 securicor, the security company that British Airways uses both at Heathrow and O.R. Tambo in Jo'burg. A gentleman from G4S assured me that he'd personally ensure that my guns were transferred back onto the proper BA flight, and would then meet me at the gate with my bagge claim checks. He did everything exactly as promised and we had no further problems. Our flight home from that point went smoothly and my guns and other baggage arrived as scheduled. The people of British Airways assured me they're fine with flying firearms, but did say to always check the guns through to final desination so as to avoid problems in Heathrow with paranoid people who fear guns.

American Airlines is about to find out what I think of their security supervisor idiot in London, and I'll probably post a cope of my letter here for all to enjoy. In the meantime, the next time I fly to Africa, it is pretty safe to assume that while British will get my business, American will play no part in it, other than adding miles to my AAdvantage frequent flyer account for more free airfare in the future.

To paraphrase what they say in African Sporting Gazzette, GTH (Go to Hell) Davinder dip-shit!

Good to hear you and your rifles etc all got home OK and sincerely hope you nail the prick responsible.

Actually, you were lucky with BA because they usually require 72 hours notice that a passenger is travelling with firearms. Great to hear that they decided to waive that requirement in your case.

I'll tell you, I think BA is one of the best. After speaking with a number of people on the ground in Africa, reading reports, etc. BA has the best record in terms of getting your bags where they are going, especially firearms. Maybe their over concern to firearms is such that they really do keep an eye on them, hence they are rarely "misplaced". Slightly off topic, but I also think they have a great fleet of aircraft (Boeing) and a staff with good attitudes and idea of cutomer service.

+1 for flying with British Airways and guns to Africa. I did it last year both ways with them and it was pretty painless and everthing (baggage & guns) got where it was suppose to and when it was suppose to on my trip.

SAA on the other hand was a real pain in the arse on the same trip for my internal flight from Joberg to/from Windhoek.

CAelkhunter,

First I'd like to say hassles like this can just ruin your flights but it seems that even American tried to make the best of the siuation and BA took care of you. BA is my preferred carrier always. I think the problem was American letting you initially check your guns/luggage through to JNB. My understanding is that American's policy is no guns to London and that is their problem and has nothing to do with the UK. Perhaps Steve Turner will step in and clarify this. Shawn at Gracy tells me that your siuation is not unique as others using AA air miles have pitched up in London and found their guns could not be transferred to BA. I'd bet money you'll find that Mr. Rashid was only doing his job and probably is not anti-gun at all.

I'm sorry to say this but if you'd used Gracy Travel, Kathi Klimes or Steve Turner's services they would not have let you get into this situation. These folks are the experts on traveling to Africa with guns.

Mark

I'm sorry to say this but if you'd used Gracy Travel, Kathi Klimes or Steve Turner's services they would not have let you get into this situation. These folks are the experts on traveling to Africa with guns.

Mark[/QUOTE]

Absolutely! They also can use yoru miles to book the tickets. Yes, there is a fee of $350, but in the big picture of all the costs involved with going in the first place, this is small fee.

Shawn just recently helped me with what I thought might be a problem....because of her knowledge, there was no problem at all.

To all who havent been, please use a travel agent who knows the in's and out's of traveling to africa with guns.

Mark, I agree with you about those being excellent travel agents who know the ins and outs of African travel. Since I was using AAdvantage miles, I just went ahead directly with American and I'm not all that sure things would have been much different as they required me to go through on the route we flew. I did ask at the time of booking if there was another route I could fly and was told it was the only option available to me at the time if flying on miles.

The problem was explained to me in detail by the G4S people, but I didn't bother to post it in my initial post. As it was explained to me, it seems the problem is that American Airlines has repeatedly failed to comply with British regulations for how firearms are to be handled in their airports. I was told that firearms have been treated as regular baggage and been left going around on carousels inside Heathrow instead of being handled according to protocol. As a result, the Brits have fined American $50,000 pounds on two seperate occasions, according to the G4S people, and I was told this is why American won't handle guns in Heathrow any longer. Ironically, American Airlines in San Francisco could not have been more helpful when we began our flight, and everything went seemlessly on the way over.

My goal is to encourage American to fix their problem in London, not simply keep doing things the way they have been due to incompetence there. I'm a pretty persistent person and someone at American might want to buy some Preparation H as I don't intend to simply write a letter and go away.

In the future, I wouldn't ever hesitate to fly British Airways for the entire length of my trips to Africa. Their service really is outstanding and I have a thing about preferring to fly on Boeing jetliners. Of course, I'll probably end up using one of the excellent travel agents named above to assist with my travel on BA.

I commuted to Africa and Europe for years on BA. They're Number One in my book.

Here is the problem - in 2007 American Airlines stopped transport of firearms/ammo to/from the UK for normal folks except military/government personnel with proper documentation. Below is an excerpt taken from their website :

Effective with tickets purchased on/after September 24, 2007, American Airlines will no longer accept firearms in checked baggage to/from the United Kingdom (except for military/government personnel with proper documentation).

You can read the full text at :

http://www.aa.com/aa/i18nForwa...baggage/firearms.jsp

The problem originated in San Francisco when the check-in agent allowed you to check your firearms on your outbound flights. The way I see it, the agent interpreted the ruling that you were not traveling to the UK but just in transit and so through-checked your baggage/firearms to Johannesburg and by some miracle missed the evil eye of Mr. Davinder Banger, and the baggage handlers just went about their normal day of handing the baggage over to British Airways.

On the return, BA check-in agents in Johannesburg advised BA security in London (as they are supposed to) that you were traveling with firearms and so on arrival the the flight was met by BA Security who picked up the firearms and handed over to AA Security and this is how Mr. Davinder Banger got to find out about them.

British Airways are really good about the carriage of firearms and I have not hesitate in recommending them to and beyond London.

Steve

Steve, you nailed it because that's exactly how it happened.

I guess the issue, from my perspective, is what American Airlines should do about this situation. They have a problem with personnell at Heathrow not doing their job properly. The question is, should they continue to allow their employees to not do their jobs and penalize their customers, or should they fix the problem and accomodate their customers wishes to use American Airlines when flying with firearms? I realize this is a question and point that doesn't matter to many, but I have a strong opinion, and American's customer relations department is going to find out exactly what I think about it.

I can't agree with you more. If all the agents and supervisors at the airport were aware of the rules - or rather - know where to find the rules - then life would be made so easy and one woudn't have these double standards, so to speak.

Good luck and please do keep us updated with your reply from American Airlines.

Steve

This is the second time in less than a month I have heard of problems at London. I hope it's just this one person.I hope your not politicaly correct when you inform the airlines of this one man problem.

Steve,

I hope you won't mind me correcting you on one technicality. No commercial airline is allowed to carry any military firearm no matter what paperwork they have.

All commercial airlines are bound by the Air Navigation Order (Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act) and that divides all firearms into two separate catagories. 'Sporting Firearms' which are firearms that are used for sport such as hunting or target shooting are are of a calibre that has never been used by any military force (which they are permitted to carry) and anything else is a 'weapon of war' which they are not permitted to carry under any circumstances.

If any airline thinks otherwise, they're laying themselves open to a fine of something like and from memory US$10K per occurrance.

Hi Steve

I agree with you as it pertains to the carriage of military equipment/firearms and the rules as you stated.

The information I posted was taken directly off the American Airlines website so it would be interesting to hear from them what they actually do permit military/government personel to carry.

Steve

Steve,

The only thing I can think that it might refer to, is the sky marshal thing, but other than that, all commercial airlines are forbidden to carry any weapon of war by international treaty.

They could have worded it rather better though huh?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Steve,

The only thing I can think that it might refer to, is the sky marshal thing, but other than that, all commercial airlines are forbidden to carry any weapon of war by international treaty.

They could have worded it rather better though huh?

It's a fine point and doesn't apply to hunters, but I don't think so. Please source said treaty. The Air Navigation Order mentioned above can have any of its provisions waived, and, as far as I can tell is British, not international. I also direct your attention to this little blurb......Military flying with weapons

Gatorgordo,

The act was originally British, but it was adopted by international treaty in the early(ish) days of commercial aviation so that the situation of a consignment being legal in the country of departure but illegal in the country of destination couldn't occur. (There were other reasons, but that was the main one)

What usually happens is the relevant country inserts it's name in brackets in the title (usually between the words navigation and order) of the act and adopts it as their own legislation. Occasionally, a country will adopt the wording but change the title and even more confusing, they'll have the same or similar wording in other pieces of legislation as well.

As I read your link, and please correct me if you think I'm reading it wrongly, the flights they're referring to are either military aircraft or commercial aircraft that the military have chartered. In either case, there are no ordinary commercial (members of the general public) on the flight and then the rules will change, but with ordinary scheduled commercial flights, the airlines are not permitted to carry any weapons of war and can be fined serious money if they do.

FWIW, there also are other acts etc in many countries, esp the USA who issued a plethora of new regulations post 9/11, but under the treaty, the Air Navigation Order (Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act) is the dominating legislation. Personally, I reckon a lot of countries stuffed up after 9/11 when a lot of them introduced new pieces of legislation rather than amend the existing act because some of the new stuff is often confusing and contradictory, but it's done now and it ain't gonna change.

The act is also rather ridiculously used by some airlines/check in agents (BA are esp hot on it) who want to get picky to stop hunters travelling with ex military calibres such as .308 & 30.06 etc...... fortunately most check in agents are not that aware of the act and most hunters happily get away with it.

I have to say that fortunately, the Americans, being a nation of shooters with a long standing gun culture, usually interpret these regulations a lot more sensibly than some other more politically correct nations such as the Brits.

Incidentally, and slightly off topic, it's also the same legislation that (IMO, rightly) forbids carriage of black powder and it's derivitives etc on commercial aircraft.

As to where you'll find a copy of the act. It's an immense piece of legislation and the only places I've ever seen it is in places like aircraft dispatch offices & loadmaster crewrooms etc. (They used to carry a copy on the flightdeck in the old days as well, but I don't know if that's still the case). You might find it with the help of that nice Mr Google or Mr Wiki, but I'm not sure......... sorry I can't be of more help on that.

If you lease or "charter" a commercial aircraft, it is still a commercial aircraft.

Here is a quote from the above article:

quote:

The €43 million made by Shannon airport since 2002 comes from "tech charges" which are based on aircraft weight, and does not include income from spending by US troops on services at Shannon. A Shannon airport spokesperson confirmed that no charges were waived for such commercial flights transporting troops. Further income is made by the Irish Aviation Authority, which charges for overflights and landing facilities.

Steve:

Being somewhat of a bulldog when it comes to chasing down esoterica (or erotica for that matter ), I found the relevant treaty. It actually started post WWI with the League of Nations in 1919, but that one didn't survive so it morphed into the Convention on International Civil Aviation with the UN just after WWII. I have to admit that you're right...... .....damn, hard for a Texan to be wrong..... BUT the Dangerous Goods Act is just British, and basically restates the CICA mentioned above, I can find no evidence that it is anything by Brit law, however the main points are the same, so it is a moot point.

Hadn't noticed you're a Texan...... best state in the US!!

If you check the 4th para down, it says: 'on chartered commercial aircraft' - Once an aircraft is chartered, SOME of the rules change because there are no general public on board etc. Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly.... sorry about that.

The act is indeed very old and it's been adopted worldwide for many years for the reasons I mentioned.

If you do a Google on 'Air Navigation Order (Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act) it'll take you here: http://www.google.co.za/search...=1W1GFRE_en&aq=f&oq=

And if you look at the first few pages, you'll find a various entries where the countries have simply adopted the same act and just entered the names of their relevent country...... It does apply to all commercial aircraft (non chartered )worldwide though.

Not really, most, if not all of the ones who have "adopted" it are British Commonwealth members, or were. I repeat, it is much newer than the CICA or ICAO as it is called and says much the same thing. For instance, I don't believe that you will find that the US is a signatory to the Dangerous Goods Act, although, to repeat myself, it says basically the same thing as the ICAO.

I'm not sure if the US called it the same thing or not, but I'm 110% sure the requirements and restrictions are exactly the same.

Prior to my trip to Africa, I contacted AA to inquire about using my frequent flyer miles. I told them I would be taking a rifle and ammo and asked them to check to see if there were any issues with that. They put me on hold and came back and told me that the only flights available for the dates I wanted were through London and they clearly stated that I could not take guns on that route. They have a route through Iberia where they allow guns and ammo, but nothing was available for that route on my dates.

Unfortunately AA was the only airline I had enough frequent flyer miles with to make the trip. I booked with Delta for $1,201.00.