quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
off course the murder statistics in South Africa are horrific. We know that. But to say that its more dangerous to hunt in South Africa than any other country would be nonsense.
I'm 49 years old. Lived my whole life in this country and have not been in or seen a life threatening situation. When I'm done typing here I will walk outside , without a weapon , and check that all the lights are off in camp etc. I don't live in fear and neither should my clients.
Johannesburg is not a good place. Period. Arrive at the airport , and get to your hunting lodge with your PH or overnight at a reputable Hotel and fly or drive out the next day.
Don't flash money around , it will make you a target -- like everywhere else in the world.
Hunters who hunt here regularly know this. And return year after year.

Happy hunting

I hear what you are saying. I do not disagree.

The problem is that often, some of us can't avoid exiting OR Tambo. Therein lies the problem. In addition, the last time I personally hunted the RSA, whenever we stopped for fuel, the PH would not allow us to go to the restrooms without being accompanied by some of the staff. He said it wasn't safe. This was far different than my previous experiences. What would you think?

The truth of the matter is that Europe concerns me a lot more than Africa with the notable exception of Johannesburg. I will be glad when we get out of Johannesburg.

Larry , I understand that this would concern you. I'm not sure in which part of the country this would be that one would not be safe going to a restroom at a fuel station. This really baffles me. I have a wife and kids and happily let them use the restrooms on our travels. Now , when the kids were small , I would not. but I would not let them anywhere in the world for that matter.

I think the guy at risk at OR Tambo is the incoming tourist who is not travel wise , hauls out a wad of cash at the first place he needs to pay someone and then exchanges a large amount of money at the airport. Traveling out of there with your PH or across the road to your Hotel should pose no threat.
Personally I don't trust anyone hanging around outside an airport seemingly without purpose , be it Paris , Dallas or Johannesburg. Seasoned travelers know this. I teach my sons this when we travel.
It always surprises me how tourists can be so gullible. They will stop and listen to what the scruffiest or smoothest character outside an airport has to tell them , while in their own country they would ignore him and move on. My boys say I give them the evil eye . Lol. It works.
Standing outside OR Tambo the other day , waiting for my ride , a European couple were standing talking to a scruffy character who assured them he knew the city and would take them in his taxi parked "around the corner" to their Hotel some distance from the airport. They were ready to commit.
I walked over ,greeted the couple in French and asked to excuse me as I need to talk to this guy . I told the scoundrel in his own language to F@#* off and got them one of the official taxis , giving instruction to the driver not to " eat their money " but drive straight to the Hotel.

Now as far as the shooting at OR Tambo goes , I have not been following the news but heard that these " Tourists " were carrying a large amount of cash in a suitcase with them ( .... ) . They were followed from their hotel in Johannesburg and eventually pushed them off the road close to OR Tambo. I don't know but Me thinks something more sinister than regular tourism went on there.

Thanks Brian Canada. I was hoping to hear someone who has used Africa Sky and could give a good report. I'm not worried about myself. I worked in the neighborhoods of South Baltimore for years and they are truly dangerous. You can get shot for just making eye contact with one of the local thugs. I'm just trying to take care of my wife. And we are still a go for for our hunt next year.

Supposedly the OR Tambo crooks are using accomplices inside the airport and, possibly in the case of the most recent incident, in or around some of the accommodations. Common sense does go a long way to help but the facts suggest these are targeted, not random.

The first time I ever hunted South Africa, back in 2002, our PH picked us up at the airport and we walked with him to the parking garage. He had hired two security guards with firearms to accompany us. He said that it was to get us to his spot in the parking garage safely, since we were bringing firearms out of the airport and into the parking garage and to the truck. On every trip since then, I have walked out to the garage with my PHs or with the driver and group of hunters being picked up from Africa Sky or by Afton House, etc. and never had a single problem. I have walked a number of times right across the road to two of the airport hotels and never had an issue. Not saying that there aren't any, just saying that everyone should be aware of their surroundings, and stay with the group or with your meet and greet service. And, I have told a number of individuals to f*!@k off in my airport encounters when approached. Worked every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
The first time I ever hunted South Africa, back in 2002, our PH picked us up at the airport and we walked with him to the parking garage. He had hired two security guards with firearms to accompany us. He said that it was to get us to his spot in the parking garage safely, since we were bringing firearms out of the airport and into the parking garage and to the truck.

Honestly , said with respect to you , I think your PH was either an idiot or watched too many gangster movies and thought he would impress someone...

Perhaps it's just a difference in perception of the "Risk / Benefit" ratio. If the PH in question thinks the odds of a problem are 1 / 100 without guards and 1/1000 with guards and the cost of guards is less than "X" then the risk / benefit cost of guards is worthwhile. Pick your numbers and risk / benefit valuation then proceed as indicated.
I think the real question for those considering trips to SA is whether the overall situation / risk is increasing (Which does seem likely to be the case) and how one can make an informed judgement months in advance. In general I would be at least a bit skeptical of opinions from folks in SA who have much to gain from individuals coming to SA for hunting or other tourist type activities and much to lose if said individuals elect not to come. I would also suggest that testimonials of safety in the past are of limited value given the apparent rapid change in overall government operation control of crime and potentially government stability.

. . . I would suggest that anyone overly stressed by security concerns save yourself the endless worry and consternation and sell me your hunt for $0.35 on the dollar.

WWgreener.
We all understand about your wife worrying. She is welcome to talk to my wife, Sandy, about travelling in South Africa. We have spent about one year there, two months at a time. Much of it on our own. You can email me at brian@fastcutcnc.com .

Your South Baltimore experience will make South Africa look tame, in all the places that you will be going.

The owners of Africa Sky, Deidra and Schutte Bekker, will also talk to your wife. They are good folks and you will become pals. Schutte is a national Hero. A rugby champion. He was captain of the Bull's and he played for the Springbok's for a while. ( He is still a humble, gentle giant.)
The driver, whose name I forget, is a bright young guy who won't let you get in a difficulty.

When you write or phone A. Sky you usually get one of two ladies, Leone or Queeny. Both very good.

The airport used to be the wild west but since they remodelled it for the world games in 2010 it is very clean, organized and safe. Huge presence of security now.

You will be met right in the airport, in a greeting area, by a guy with a sign. He takes you under his wing from there.

Also, Africa Sky looks after your gun permits and paper work. Very efficient. No worries. you must contact them way ahead of time to get the paper work to them. Then it is worry free.

We spend two days at Africa Sky before we go to the bush. ( Staying there is a great African experience in itself and it gives my old body a chance to get over the jet lag before I seek a buffalo.) We pre-arange for a tour guide named Ted to take us to Soweto and the Aparthied Museum. It's a "must do" if you want to learn what makes South Africa tick. Ted knows all the history and historical places in Soweto and I think he know every Black guy in the area. I recommend reading The Bang Bang Club and They are Burning the Churches before you go, if you wanks some of the real goods on The Fight For Freedom.

Most North Americans don't learn much about South Africa when the go there. They focus on their hunt and not much else. My Wife and I say that after travelling to the other side of the world to hunt in a fascination country we want to get all I can out of it.

Sandy and I can give you some tips on places to go and things to do too.
Do you have a place to hunt that will cater to your wife? Game drives, nature walks, local tours, etc ?

I summary, I emphasizes that my wife, who is a non hunter, always loves South Africa from CapeTown to the Limpopo Waterburg Mountains. We have helped a few travellers get off on the right foot in South Africa. Brian

We are pretty seasoned travelers but I've never given a second thought to security in the airport and we've gone into countless gas station restrooms and shops and never worried once. I'd say the meet and greet at OR is a good idea but honestly, I'd say just enjoy your trip and follow some of the advice here about how to handle yourself so you don't look like a target. The media has us so terrified these days that occasionally we just need to sit back and consider the real risks.

Myself, my Wife, my Brother in law and my Sister in law will be heading to Africa Sky on the 11th. If you don't hear from me in a few weeks.........don't go!

This will be my 7th stay with Africa Sky.....it's always great! That's where I get my first Castle Lager on the continent. I really look forward to it.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Myself, my Wife, my Brother in law and my Sister in law will be heading to Africa Sky on the 11th. If you don't hear from me in a few weeks.........don't go!

This will be my 7th stay with Africa Sky.....it's always great! That's where I get my first Castle Lager on the continent. I really look forward to it.

Ya..it's alright.

great Picture

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Myself, my Wife, my Brother in law and my Sister in law will be heading to Africa Sky on the 11th. If you don't hear from me in a few weeks.........don't go!

This will be my 7th stay with Africa Sky.....it's always great! That's where I get my first Castle Lager on the continent. I really look forward to it.

Ya..it's alright.

And they didn't get gunned down or kidnapped at the entrance or in transit. Simply amazing...

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Myself, my Wife, my Brother in law and my Sister in law will be heading to Africa Sky on the 11th. If you don't hear from me in a few weeks.........don't go!

This will be my 7th stay with Africa Sky.....it's always great! That's where I get my first Castle Lager on the continent. I really look forward to it.

Ya..it's alright.

She could do so much better.............

She knows...

Great pic! I'll be there in 60 days.

On vacation, not hunting, and met a nice young lady from RSA who lives in Jo'berg. She said that she has been mugged three time walking to school. Any one want to chime in about how safe it's there. It's not.

Joberg is not safe. Then again I don't go hunting there. Off the plane and on my way ASAP, although I like African Sky if necessary.

OK...At the present time it seems that J-Berg is at least potentially quite dangerous and requires vigilance while, generally, the remainder of SA is at least reasonable safe for foreigners. Now...for those considering visits to SA a year (Or possibly more) in the future. What is the prediction, of those with sufficient knowledge / experience to make a prediction, as to safety in the future? Also what would those with applicable experience and knowledge use as indicators of the "Danger trend" in SA as the dates of visitation for a specific individual approach? Are there specific events that would trigger concern?

Nobody has any thoughts on safety of travel for foreigners in SA a year from now or any ideas on what developments to look for if one is thinking about a hunting trip to SA?

But no one has been mugged in Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, Milwaukee or hundreds of other cities here in the states? To me, all that indicates is that the young lady lives in a bad area of what could be a thousand different cities.

I'm headed to SA next week and have plans for next year. I put my trust and the safety of my family in the hands of my PH.

IcAfrica....All of the cities you mention are located in one of the most politically stable countries of the world. Whatever issues they have today are not likely to change substantially in the next year. SA on the other hand clearly has the potential for major political upheaval quite possibly within a year. Such upheaval could certainly be perceived as a threat to the well being of any individual appearing relatively wealthy and undefended such as a American or European visitor. All I am asking for is some guidelines from knowledgeable folks as to what one should be aware of when assessing the ongoing drama of SA in terms of personal safety over the next 12-18 months.

Anyone who can predict the future of ANY African country 12-18 months going forward is a real wizard. Good luck on getting an accurate prediction.

I would stay home stubbleduck47 . . . not sure you're cut out for foreign travel to a place like Africa given your present mindset.

The last time that I stayed in Joburg I was warned to be in my hotel room by sundown. I had no doubt that it was a good idea .

When I was talking to some chaps in the Free State after a bird shoot I was very interested to see them take their handguns out and put them on for their journeys home. I was told that the closer that they got to Johannesburg the tenser they became ..

They seemed sincere.

quote:

Originally posted by stubbleduck47:
IcAfrica....All of the cities you mention are located in one of the most politically stable countries of the world. Whatever issues they have today are not likely to change substantially in the next year. SA on the other hand clearly has the potential for major political upheaval quite possibly within a year. Such upheaval could certainly be perceived as a threat to the well being of any individual appearing relatively wealthy and undefended such as a American or European visitor. All I am asking for is some guidelines from knowledgeable folks as to what one should be aware of when assessing the ongoing drama of SA in terms of personal safety over the next 12-18 months.

I would agree with Mike. Rather stay at home, don't even consider travelling outside your state.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I would stay home stubbleduck47 . . . not sure you're cut out for foreign travel to a place like Africa given your present mindset.

I've got to agree with Mike, if you're this worried you really should stay home.

I'm planning a trip for next year, taking my lady friend who has never been to Africa. Probably going to do a trip fairly similar to the one the Dollars just completed with Walter Enslin. In fact, I'll be talking with Walter about that very thing. If he (or whoever else we might hire) says it's 'good to go' we'll be there without a concern.

Africa simply isn't a place for the timid. If you need greater comfort from a safety standpoint, consider New Zealand, Argentina or Spain.

I hunted SA (Bow / Melorani) in 2003 and 2005. I lived for two years in a small village in rural Iran (Peace Corps 1969-71). The last 15 years of my career I regularly (5-6 trips per year) visited very rural areas of Peru, Mexico, Ecuador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, among other South American countries. In several cases my small group was accompanied by armed guards. I made a habit of learning all I could about the potential issues in each country each time I visited and made a special effort to determine what sorts of occurrences might be interpreted as indications of imminent danger. All I'm asking of those potentially with appropriate knowledge is any hints that might provide a bit of warning of a deterioration of the situation in SA. Traveling blindly into a country with the potential for political upheaval of SA without doing some homework just isn't the way I do things. As a for instance...what, if any, effect on the political stability of SA would the experts on this forum predict for the sudden death of Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe from natural causes? How about if he were assassinated?

Point is, the trip is supposed to be enjoyable. A vacation. A time to enjoy life . . . to experience something unique and different. If safety concerns are causing you that much consternation, perhaps something more benign would be appropriate.

I guess I'm not sure how a request for information from folks with expertise in the area morphed into a critique of lifestyle. Anyhow...I gather that those frequenting this forum either do not feel they have potentially useful information regarding my basic questions or, if they do have such information, they are unwilling to pass it on.

The State Department issues travel warnings and country summaries .Sometimes these can help. Many times they just make the choice to travel or not to travel more difficult . All the additional information does not make the decision any easier. UK issues travel warnings also I find these warning more useful that the State department one.

quote:

Originally posted by stubbleduck47:
I hunted SA (Bow / Melorani) in 2003 and 2005. I lived for two years in a small village in rural Iran (Peace Corps 1969-71). The last 15 years of my career I regularly (5-6 trips per year) visited very rural areas of Peru, Mexico, Ecuador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, among other South American countries. In several cases my small group was accompanied by armed guards. I made a habit of learning all I could about the potential issues in each country each time I visited and made a special effort to determine what sorts of occurrences might be interpreted as indications of imminent danger. All I'm asking of those potentially with appropriate knowledge is any hints that might provide a bit of warning of a deterioration of the situation in SA. Traveling blindly into a country with the potential for political upheaval of SA without doing some homework just isn't the way I do things. As a for instance...what, if any, effect on the political stability of SA would the experts on this forum predict for the sudden death of Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe from natural causes? How about if he were assassinated?

Well folks we survived!

African Sky was just as wonderful as ever.

We flew to Phalabowa and the people there where as wonderful as ever. Went North to Makuya and had no problems.....even stopped and used restrooms at gas stations, never felt the need for armed guards.

From there we went South as far as Dulstroom, also using restrooms along the way, again never felt the need for security....

All in all pretty much the same South Africa and South Africans I have grown to really love.


.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Well folks we survived!

African Sky was just as wonderful as ever.

We flew to Phalabowa and the people there where as wonderful as ever. Went North to Makuya and had no problems.....even stopped and used restrooms at gas stations, never felt the need for armed guards.

From there we went South as far as Dulstroom, also using restrooms along the way, again never felt the need for security....

All in all pretty much the same South Africa and South Africans I have grown to really love.


.

Can't believe you made it out alive? Who would have guessed? Glad you enjoyed your trip.