Just returned from three weeks in South Africa. First ten days hunting then touring with my wife (her first trip). Flew United from San Antonio to Houston, then Emirates through Dubai to Joburg, same on the return. After we cleared Immigration and Customs on the return at IAH and went to check in with United to get home, the check in agent was insistent that I did not need to see TSA (I asked repeatedly). You can guess what happened-phone call while waiting for the flight that TSA needed to see me. Had to go to the other side of the airport where I met a United agent and a TSA agent. I said "so I need to go with you to open the case, correct?". They both replied that I could not go where the gun case was, and just to give them the key to my TuffPak. My gut told me to insist on going with them or make them bring the case out, but after flying for over 24 hours, and it was late at night, I complied. They came back about 20 minutes later and said everything was OK. Flight delayed, didn't get home and to bed until about 3 a.m. (WAY past my bedtime). Next day, guess what-couldn't open the case. Called United, they initially offered me $50. Told them no way. Was told I had to go back to the airport, full gun case in hand. Baggage claim person very nice, but had no clue what to do. Called a supervisor. Told her my story and she told me to do what I needed to do. Went to a local locksmith company I have used for years-sold me my gun safe. They got it open, but the lock was FUBAR'D. Locksmith told me some gorilla must have opened and closed it due to the damage. Lock will need replacement. NEVER let anyone open your gun case but YOU. I'll post later and let you know if United takes care of me.

WELL, were all the guns still inside??

George

Yep

Happened to me right after 911; TSA wanted my keys but didn't put the rod through the clasps. Now I use four locks.

Happened again coming back from Canada; cleared Customs in Vancouver but connected thru Denver. TSA paged me but I was having dinner with my brother (long layover). They cut the locks and put TSA locks on.

I know it sounds ridiculas, but in reality had you continued on your insistence of having to tell them how to run their business and would not allow them to do as they said, you would probably still be their or in a half way house!

Simple truth is most of the time your at their mercy and in Africa your a sh-t sandwich if you argue to much..

Idealy your correct, in our real world, you are separated from your guns for most of the trip, and that's the way it is unless you get real lucky. that is why I always carry airline regulations on firearms with me at all times when traveling and its saved my bacon more than once..

Bottom line is you cannot travel and keep your guns, gun case, in sight, or keep them from opening, and your not allowed in the baggage area so your advise will mostly be incorrect. its impossible for them to honor your wishes...Apparantly you didn't use the Airline lock and key..They can open any of those locks and its a regulation that you use them unless they have changed that regulation..I think they are call TSX locks and come with key or combination and all airlines have that information and numbered keys..US customs also has similar options but its law in their case. FWIW..

In a foreign country you have little if any rights at all..

That is why I insure my guns when traveling with my Home Insurance..I send them a description and serial number and value, Its not expensive thru your home ins. and the guns are insured for a year..I always hope they get lost, but no such luck!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I know it sounds ridiculas, but in reality had you continued on your insistence of having to tell them how to run their business and would not allow them to do as they said, you would probably still be their or in a half way house!

Simple truth is most of the time your at their mercy and in Africa your a sh-t sandwich if you argue to much..

Idealy your correct, in our real world, you are separated from your guns for most of the trip, and that's the way it is unless you get real lucky. that is why I always carry airline regulations on firearms with me at all times when traveling and its saved my bacon more than once..

Bottom line is you cannot travel and keep your guns, gun case, in sight, or keep them from opening, and your not allowed in the baggage area so your advise will mostly be incorrect. its impossible for them to honor your wishes...Apparantly you didn't use the Airline lock and key..They can open any of those locks and its a regulation that you use them unless they have changed that regulation..I think they are call TSX locks and come with key or combination and all airlines have that information and numbered keys..US customs also has similar options but its law in their case. FWIW..

In a foreign country you little if any rights at all..

That is why I insure my guns when traveling with my Home Insurance..I send them a description and serial number and value, Its not expensive thru your home ins. and the guns are insured for a year..I always hope they get lost, but no such luck!!

I’ve actually read here that it is advised against using TSA locks for firearms. I rarely fly with guns, but when I last did in 2008 my Tuffpak has the standard lock and I prefer it that way.

Ray,

TSA locks are not allowed on the gun case. TSA locks on your duffel, suitcase etc only. You are supposed to be the only one able to open your gun case and that is the law.

drj,

Wonder what they would have told you if you had a combination lock on your gun case.

Mark

The issue is so confusing that the right hand of gov't does not know what the left hand of gov't is doing.

I have been told to use only my locks on the gun case from TSA and another agent told me to use TSA locks on the gun case. I have been present during inspection and other times told I must be away from the inspection area.

Returning from Australia I was separated from my gun case that had a pair of my own locks on it. I went on to Alaska and when my gun case arrived in LA TSA cut off the locks for inspection and sent the case on another flight to Alaska with no lock on it at all! Thank the hunting gods my .600 was untouched.

The same goes for ammo. Some TSA state the ammo can be in the gun case, others say no, some add specifications if the ammo is in a locked hard case then it can be in the gun case, otherwise not.

Some ammo is weighed, some not. Some weighed in the hard case and other times it is removed so as not to include the weight of the case. If ammo is over the 5kg limit it can be confiscated or only the amount to get it below 5kg is taken.

Some are declined to take a .500, ,577, .600 due to the caliber restrictions for military calibers and others know sporting ammo in those calibers are OK.

In New York, returning from Africa, my gun case would not be given to me after customs inspection unless I could provide my Alaska license to own firearms. It took a few hours to convince them no license is required in AK.

The list goes on. Personally, I think it is the spirit of Janet Reno doing this,
Cal

Update: I am fortunate to have a great relationship with a local locksmith/safe company, Fuller's Alamo Safe and Lock. Third generation currently running the show. They were able to open my TuffPak without cutting or drilling (took them awhile). They let me know that the Chicago Lock/Ace Key locks are prone to breaking if they are abused in any way. Replaced the lock with a Medco-heavy duty, keyed, keys are registered, had to fill out a card and if the person requested a duplicate key is not on the card they don't get it. Also, the key has a serial number-I was told that if I am in Africa, South America, wherever, and I need a key, if I contact them they can make one with just the serial number and send it to me. Cost less than $100, so I am taking my other two TuffPaks to them to replace the lock. Now we will see if United reimburses me.

My guess is your asking for trouble, I base that on 40 plus years of experience sending folks to Africa, and the 4 corners of the world, and my early years as a US Custom Agent (investigator).. not to mention that if its theft your afraid of, they will probably take the whole thing, its easier to steal a gun case full of guns than to pack one gun at a time out...With regular small locks customs or airport officials will cut the locks if need be and replace the lock for you in most cases..Will perhaps call you in to unlock them or give them a key, you say no way! well you just missed your flight, not good..

In the third world, you would be well advised not to take them on, you will lose everytime,and might end up in the nastiest jail on earth..Act stupid and give the impression your confused and didn't understand and you won't have a ruined hunt.

Take it or leave it..Its just my advise to you in good faith, the rest is up to you..

You shouldn't have said "I need to open the gun case in front of TSA, right?"

Apparently the procedure has changed, at least in Houston. When I returned last week I asked someone at the baggage area where to go to retrieve my firearm and they said just wait at the carousel and an airline employee will bring it to you. Which is exactly what happened. I grabbed my carry-on off the carousel and walked out, easy peasy. No spraying of boots, no TSA anymore!

I have always followed the guns with key to x ray. For the first time last year they asked for the key, and when I asked if I should follow, they said no, we will be right back.
Maybe new policy? Who knows

Interesting story.

Last fall I flew out of Bangor, Me and had to give the keys to my gun case to a UA representative who in turn gave them to TSA so they could inspect the contents of my gun case.

They were out of sight for about 10 minutes. The UA rep returned the keys, but after I got home I was missing my bore snake, a speed loader case, and two speed loaders.

So much for security.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
Interesting story.

Last fall I flew out of Bangor, Me and had to give the keys to my gun case to a UA representative who in turn gave them to TSA so they could inspect the contents of my gun case.

They were out of sight for about 10 minutes. The UA rep returned the keys, but after I got home I was missing my bore snake, a speed loader case, and two speed loaders.

So much for security.

BH63

TSA people have been learning from their South African counterparts!

I have never had anything taken from my gun cases. In this instance, I think that I would have raised a royal shiz stink about the missing items, and asked for a formal investigation. If they did it to you, then it will continue until the criminals are exposed, caught and prosecuted.F-cking TSA! Aren't there cameras in their area that would show the thiefs? Logs would also show who was on duty back there, as I know that they have to go through secured doors, swiping their i.d. cards. Maybe a note in the gun case stating that everything in the gun case has been photographed and documented in case of theft might get them to think twice-who knows. Just throwing it out there for further discussion.

I had my locks cut off when returning from Canada a few years ago; I connected in Denver and TSA wanted to inspect. Since I cleared Customs in Vancouver, I didn't have to bring it to TSA after the Customs check.

TSA did put TSA locks on my case after they cut the locks. Anytime you connect into the US you need to be aware TSA might want to have a look.

In Atlanta in June coming back from Africa a customs guy escorted me to TSA where they checked my case with me present. I don't think I had to open it.

I now insist on being able to see my gun case if TSA wants to open it; right after 911 they failed to install the rod going through the latches on my case. I now use four locks (and a fifth where the rod used to be locked).

Had a similar problem at Houston Hobby. Checked my guns and was waiting for my flight when I was called back to counter. Seems TSA need my key to open gun case and I jokingly said "shouldn't they have a key to a TSA lock" on my SKB case. They returned my key and all was fine. Arrived in Atlanta and there was a key broken off in the lock? Seems they gorilla'd another key in the lock and snapped it off. It definitely wasn't my key.

My guess is that they did not steal BF63's items but just didn't repack them as that would be normal for their half baked manner of handling things.

Mark

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/tra...earms-and-ammunition

Quote:

"Firearms must be unloaded and locked in a hard-sided container and transported as checked baggage only. As defined by 49 CFR 1540.5 a loaded firearm has a live round of ammunition, or any component thereof, in the chamber or cylinder or in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Only the passenger should retain the key or combination to the lock unless TSA personnel request the key to open the firearm container to ensure compliance with TSA regulations. You may use any brand or type of lock to secure your firearm case, including TSA-recognized locks."

I respectfully disagree. Mark Young is right.
Moreover, someone with TSA's website has taken liberty with 49 CFR 1540.111 which deals specifically with the Carriage of weapons, explosives and incendiaries by individuals. It DOES NOT STATE in CFR 1540.111 that you can use a TSA recognized lock. This is what it says verbatim:"(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination." Having a TSA lock on your gun case allows someone else to retain a key(other than you) to the lock, and does not make the gun case secure. I suggest that anyone who has any question to look it up and read it for themselves. Be warned if you decide to use TSA locks on your gun case. The recent incident with an airline employee in Seattle, Washington ought to give anyone pause in allowing anyone at an airport, including the TSA, to have unfettered access to a gun case.

Sir,
Just so we are perfectly clear here,
I am not a TSA agent, or in any way, shape, or form affiliated with any Federal law enforcement agency, I am not a Federal prosecutor, or Judge.
The quote I posted is in no way, shape,or form my recommendation or advice.
If you followed the link I provided at the beginning of my first post in this thread you will see that in fact the advice and recommendation is that of the TSA and represented as such.

Post script, I see you amended your post while I was typing my reply. Thanks

That is a great idea. After TSA (or United personnel-not sure who actually did it) broke the lock on my TuffPak this year I intend to photograph everything in my gun case and leave a note to that effect on top. I learned on AR many years ago to take measurements and photos of my checked bags "just in case". That has come in handy more than once.

No problem Ty. The problem is with the TSA and their website, not with you personally. I hope that I conveyed that adequately. And, I do hope that our AR friends understand that what the TSA has posted on their website and what the actual law clearly says, are in conflict.(Surprise, Surprise) For me, I'll follow the law and disregard the TSA website's unsupported suggestion.

My TuffPak has the “coke machine” style lock. At DFW, I open it and have a TSA agent inspect my firearms in a private area. He had no clue about firearms, but was cordial.

On a return flight from Zim a couple of years ago, the TSA agent (or someone) put all the locks back on but did not properly latch a couple of the clasps.

The gun case had 4 clasps and fortunately two were enough to keep the contents from shifting, but only because the two unclasped latches were on opposite sides of the front of the case. If they had both been side-by-side on one end it might have been a different story.

On the UA website they recommended using TSA locks (which anyone can potentially open), but the TSA website seems to indicate they prefer non-TSA locks.

I used to compromise with two non-TSA locks and two TSA locks, thinking if they had to cut the non-TSA locks there would still be some nominal security from the TSA locks.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I had my locks cut off when returning from Canada a few years ago; I connected in Denver and TSA wanted to inspect. Since I cleared Customs in Vancouver, I didn't have to bring it to TSA after the Customs check.

TSA did put TSA locks on my case after they cut the locks. Anytime you connect into the US you need to be aware TSA might want to have a look.

So how did you get the key to the new TSA locks???

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I had my locks cut off when returning from Canada a few years ago; I connected in Denver and TSA wanted to inspect. Since I cleared Customs in Vancouver, I didn't have to bring it to TSA after the Customs check.

TSA did put TSA locks on my case after they cut the locks. Anytime you connect into the US you need to be aware TSA might want to have a look.

So how did you get the key to the new TSA locks???

BH63

I just went to United customer service and they paged a TSA guy who unlocked it. I think there are only 10 different locks.

Here's what the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation said today in their latest Bugle Magazine about traveling with firearms. Seems that they know and understand the law better than the TSA.

Quote: ( PJ DelHomme - Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation )

" BEFORE YOU FLY "

"Read the TSA guidelines on traveling with firearms.
Printing them out and bringing them with you to the airport can help provide valuable clarity and backup if things go awry. Get the latest regs at www.tsa.gov/travel/transportin...earms-and-ammunition"



"valuable clarity"


.

Yes, I saw that as well. I guess that everyone has to decide what "valuable clarity" is. Make sure that you all print out CFR 1540.111. That way, it will be just about as "clear" as you can get. At least everyone will have their talking (and arguing) points: "if things go awry". And, I guess that the people at the RMEF just assumed that the TSA would actually follow the law.

quote:

Make sure that you all print out CFR 1540.111.

Best advice so far in this thread.

Now, in keeping with the original subject.

I have read that in certain U.S. airports, TSA agents will not allow travelers to be present during the physical inspection for a number of reasons.

If the TSA agent(s) tasked with inspecting my firearm do not capitulate when I tell them that they are asking me to break the law by giving them my key and allowing them to leave my sight, what can I do?

Not much. Either provide them with the key/keys and wait the obligatory 15-20 minutes near check-in for them to return the key/keys to you and tell you everything is good to go, or you can risk not flying with your guns. They used to inspect the firearms in your presence, but most airports do not do that anymore unfortunately, and you're always at some potential risk that they will either steal something or screw with your guns/scopes during the inspection of your firearms out of your presence. But, in my case, they cannot inspect my firearms without my permission, as I must voluntarily give them the key to my TuffPak for the inspection and it has a vendor style lock on it. Personally, I have never had anything come up missing, nor has there ever been any attempt to break into my gun case at any airport by the TSA. I also carefully listen to airport pages, as I have been paged back twice to have my gun case inspected when ticketing agents have said that I was good to go. My advice: Just follow the rules, don't use TSA approved locks and cooperate in a professional and friendly manner with airport personnel and you'll be just fine. Oh, and by the way, make sure you declare your firearms and ammo at check-in, fill out the declaration of unloaded firearms card, sign it, and place it in your gun case and lock it back up. If you or your ticketing agent forget that, it is a criminal offense-for you.

Thank you.

Am I missing something..... has the question been answered about whether you can be with your Gun Case when unlocked an inspected..??

Mike,

Depends on the airport. I've stood right there and watched them check everything and I've also had them take it in a room beyond where we could go. Recent trips they've just x-rayed the gun case and I've not had to open it.

Mark

+1

I've only flown one R/T with guns. Co/Spgs-DFW-JAX and back.
My SKB had 3 revolvers and 4 rifles going down, 3 rifles and 4 revolvers coming back.

I didn't know the laws at all then. Especially about ammo limits. We'd planned on doing extensive target shooting of several cals. I had over double the allowed 11 lbs in the suitcase in plastic ammo boxes. In the Spgs that was opened and they weighed it. I asked if I could have my buddy come back and pick it up. "sure, have him ask for me, what's his name?" That worked and I never lost any of it.
When I got to destination, ammo was loose all over inside the suitcase as the guy hadn't closed the boxes. Yes, more than one.

My gun case: I'd lost the key, called SKB over two weeks ahead of time and was told they'd mail a key right out. Sure as hell, I got more locks and NO key just the day before I left. Wrapped a chain around the middle and locked it. I'm not sure now where I was when I checked thru inspection. I asked for the TSA guy and he came to me. "I have to pee bad, I have several guns in a case and will be right back with the key" "Fine". When I got back, he said: "you're fine, I x-rayed it and everything is good, enjoy your hunt".

Going down the gun case was "lost", sent to the upper East coast. We lost 3 days fishing waiting on AA to get them found and delivered 65 miles from JAX airport to the guys house.

Coming back there was no problems. Plus, when I got home, there was three keys in the mail box. I'd called from Steve's place in FL and told SKB to mail keys to me there. Nope, sent 'em to my house. Sure glad I wrapped the locked chain around it.

George