I need advice on the legality and practicality of carrying a small quantity of copper bullets in checked luggage from US to Africa. Bullets only, not ammo.
Thanks,

Every African country and indeed, every country in the world has it's own firearms laws, so you need to tell us what country you're exporting from and which country you're importing into.

Thanks Steve,
Specifically from the United States on NW/KLM to Kilimanjaro International. The TZ side not a worry, just wondering about such items being in checked baggage, not necessarily in their original boxes.

quote:

Originally posted by jangili:
Thanks Steve,
Specifically from the United States on NW/KLM to Kilimanjaro International. The TZ side not a worry, just wondering about such items being in checked baggage, not necessarily in their original boxes.

The TZ side is the one I should worry about my friend - hand loading ammunition in TZ is prohibited. I'm surprised you don't know.

This has been discussed here a few times in the last few years.

I believe you need a corresponding firearm with you to import bullets into South Africa.

I would not import any into Zimbabwe without following all the rules and requirements to the letter - and even then - dont do it! It is not a requirement that any laws be broken to get into trouble in Zim.

Then, of course, there is the issue of exporting them from the USA in the first place.

Les

I'd recommend you don't even get close to breaking ANY law related to international firearms and travel related laws in this increasingly hysterical post 9/11 society in which we live.

I've even got so fed up with all the inevitable ammo travel squabbles with bloody minded check in agents, I just pack ammo in boxes that'll fit into either my rifle case or a lockable metal box and that in turn will pack into my suitcase and then I just ask the agent what he wants and that's what they get.

I believe it is illegal to carry projectiles in checked baggage, period. Check the TSA website.

www.tsa.gov

Will,

I'd appreciate the rationale for your conclusion. What I saw on the web site said that you mayput ammo in the gun case - not that you must put ammo ion the gun case. As I remember at one time you could not carry ammo in the gun case. This statement may just be clarifying this change to allow shipping with the guns and not separate.

quote:

Originally posted by Oday450:
Will,

I'd appreciate the rationale for your conclusion. What I saw on the web site said that you mayput ammo in the gun case - not that you must put ammo ion the gun case. As I remember at one time you could not carry ammo in the gun case. This statement may just be clarifying this change to allow shipping with the guns and not separate.

First, I am referring to reloading components only (bullets, brass, primers, powder) and not finished ammunition.

The basis: When I was getting ready to fly ATL-JNB-HRE back in July, I could have sworn that unloaded projectiles (ie. bullets, not finished ammunition) were not allowed in checked baggage. Upon further examination, I cannot find it.

I've either misremembered it or it was an airline specific rule. I cannot find it on TSA at this time.

Gentlemen - international airlines require ammo to travel separated from the firearm. Ammo has to be packed in lockable metal boxes not exceeding 5Kg (11 lbs) inclusive of its contents.
Where Tanzania is concerned - (the original poster was talking in terms of destination as Kilimanjaro Airport for bullet heads) - reloading of ammo in this country will very likely get you a jail term.

This one comes up from time to time and it's always a murky issue. One has to understand the history of it all to understand the present. So here goes:

Firstly, the over riding legislation for ALL commercial passenger air travel is the Air Navigation Order (Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act) that was originally written by the Brits just after WWII.

This was then adopted by the other nations who used the same wording but inserted the name of the country in brackets after the word 'Order'.

The intention of such an act was to prevent a situation occurring where an international flight left one country with a legal cargo but arrived in another with an illegal one. One set of laws would make that impossible.

The order stipulated that firearms must be in approved travel cases and no more than 12 lbs/5 Kgs of ammo in cases that kept every round separated from every other round could be carried in the passengers ordinary bag.

Then in about the 80s or so, some airlines, including BA came up with the daft regulation (NOT law) that ammo should be carried in a locked metal box......... that is obviously as dumb as it gets because by doing so, one is actually creating a MORE explosive device. Nevertheless, the regulation remained in place and was adopted by many other airlines...... and still remains in place with many of them now.

Then 9/11 came along and things got even more complicated...... esp in the USA. Presidential decrees and a plethora of new Govt bodies, each with their own set of rules now means it's a complete f**k up.

Add on the fact that some countries do allow reloading and reloading components to be imported and/or used and some do not and it's now complete chaos.

At the current time, things are changing especially quickly and often. BA for example have changed their rules several times in just this year and the EU have recently introduced a new law that says NO ammo may be carried as part of checked or hand baggage. So far, only TAP (Portugal) are enforcing that but you can be sure the others will soon pick up on it.

Another problem is that the Netherlands now require a letter of invitation from the outfitter..... easy you might think but those travelling to Zim need to realise that the EU arms embargo to Zim will mean that your ammo AND rifles may not (probably won't if anyone bothers to check locations etc) make it to your destination. Some of you might think a dodgy letter of invitation from elsewhere might do the trick........ but get caught and you just might find yourself charged with international arms smuggling.

The best thing you can do is check with the relevent bodies AND the relevent airlines JUST BEFORE YOU TRAVEL about exactly what you want to take and ask them to confirm IN WRITING what may and may not travel. I'd also recommend avoiding travelling through the EU at least for a while until we know exactly what will happen with the new EU laws and regulations etc.

A few things that may not travel on ANY commercial passenger aircraft are loose smokeless, flammable powder, primers not loaded into metallic cases, or any black powder or black powder substitute classified as any kind of explosive whatsoever.

As far as empty metallic cases and/or bullets (heads to some nations) that will depend largely on the individual airlines and countries concerned.

Other than that, it's easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Regardless of regulations/laws etc. I would not carry any type of reloading components to Africa. People have related too many horror stories to me concerning this. African officials are incredibly ignorant about such things and that ignorance can work against you big time. Take only loaded ammo that matches the guns you are carrying and keep the weight of ammo under 5kg. Be smart and have a great safari.

Mark

I have carried Bullets(heads) when returning from the states in the sealed plastic boxes they were bought in , locked in my rifle case. I have not had a hassle in the states. Upon re-entering Zim, I have produced my reloading licence(for sport shooting) and have had no hassle here either.
HOWEVER reloading in Zim is also illegal(even though everyone does it) unless you have a reloading license. The carriage of primers and powder to my knowledge is completely banned unless the goods are shipped under a Dangerous Goods license and covering air way bill.

As mark and Steve both say above, take great care that you know the rules both from your point of departure and point of arrival.

quote:

Originally posted by zimFrosty:
The carriage of primers and powder to my knowledge is completely banned unless the goods are shipped under a Dangerous Goods license and covering air way bill.

They can only be transported as HAZMAT (hazardous materials), (more or less) only by surface transport and by special permit with a licenced shipping company.

Which is the reason that the South African SOMCHEM company is so successful.........

True. The International Air Transport Association publishes a hazardous materials manual listing all hazmat and the associated regulations for transportation by aircraft of member nations. It specifically excludes smokeless powder and metallic primers from carriage aboard any aircraft, including the cargo-aircraft-only designation.

In the U.S., CFR 49 applies.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by zimFrosty:
The carriage of primers and powder to my knowledge is completely banned unless the goods are shipped under a Dangerous Goods license and covering air way bill.

They can only be transported as HAZMAT (hazardous materials), (more or less) only by surface transport and by special permit with a licenced shipping company.

Which is the reason that the South African SOMCHEM company is so successful.........

Steve.....unfair she cried. I can tell you that the World Benchrest Championships were held in SA last year and shottists from all over the world shot the somchem powders and loved them. .......I have shot a number of different powders and reckon the Somchem stuff is pretty good......as long as you match your batches etc.........but then again do you need powder or Nitro gylcerin in that bazooka of yours

Guess I should try running it on liquid fuel instead of S whatever it is huh!

I'm not complaining about the quality of Somchem at all..... and in fact, I reckon they're bloody good.

I've also always found their technical dept brilliantly helpful.... I don't know how the costs compare but I do find it a bit of a pain in the arse that you can't use any of the normal reloading books for Somchem powders.

I've got a shelf full of reloading manuals here that are no bloody good to me at all.

Just pulling your leg. I have a guru who gives me conversion tables which show the grains of one powder, the closest somchem powder equivalent and the recomended load with said powder.....works both ways which is very handy.

Will have to get you a copy sorted out when you finally come visit

quote:

Originally posted by zimFrosty:
Just pulling your leg. I have a guru who gives me conversion tables which show the grains of one powder, the closest somchem powder equivalent and the recomended load with said powder.....works both ways which is very handy.

Will have to get you a copy sorted out when you finally come visit

Mate, now THAT would be really worth having a copy of!

I've gotta say, I've never had any problems with Somchem powders though.

Steve,

This from our friends in Port Elizabeth is close, but not exactly what you are looking for maybe!

Les

From GS Custom

Thanks Les. I'd never noticed that on their site before.

It'll certainly be a help!